TEST= BAD INSULIN sensativity!?

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    TEST= BAD INSULIN sensativity!?


    Ok, I am a type 1 diabetic, and have been taking TEST E and DBOL, come to find out, that apparantly it can make you less Insulin sensative, as I have been taking 2x the amount of insulin I am used to! Is there any corrolation? I here it can be do to cortisol elevating when test levels are abnormally high...

    1. Wouldnt this make you FAT? I mean being less sensative?

    2. Does it make a "normal" person less insulin sensative? Or is it just because my diabetes?

    3. Would IGF help restore the sensativity while on cycle?

    4. How does being less insulin sensative make you gain fat weight? It dont make sense? I mean if you eat the same amount of calories but require more insulin how does it cause fat gain? Just because it takes more insulin to shuttle nutrients?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantell View Post
    Ok, I am a type 1 diabetic, and have been taking TEST E and DBOL, come to find out, that apparantly it can make you less Insulin sensative, as I have been taking 2x the amount of insulin I am used to! Is there any corrolation? I here it can be do to cortisol elevating when test levels are abnormally high...

    1. Wouldnt this make you FAT? I mean being less sensative?

    2. Does it make a "normal" person less insulin sensative? Or is it just because my diabetes?

    3. Would IGF help restore the sensativity while on cycle?

    4. How does being less insulin sensative make you gain fat weight? It dont make sense? I mean if you eat the same amount of calories but require more insulin how does it cause fat gain? Just because it takes more insulin to shuttle nutrients?

    if your putting on weight and you proll are... then the more fat you put on the more your body can "hide" the glut4 receptors that are needed to be activated by insulin.
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    makes you fat bc you have more circulating insulin floating around causing hyperinsulinemia.
    •   
       

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    So? Are you suggesting Im just putting on fat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantell View Post
    So? Are you suggesting Im just putting on fat?
    How so? I mean, if your eating the same diet, who cares how much insulin is present?
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    Dude u need to check with someone besides us. There are men here that are extremely intelligent and have Get knowledge in hormones. However i think u need to speak to someone like Dr.D to get the full scoop on this.. Insulin isn't something to mess with and i know u know this.

    Personally i would be hitting up pubmed and the like checking to see what i could find in medical journals. I would also try and find men who use AAS who are also type 1 and see what they have to say as well..

    Lastly i would stop the cycle. Hit pct and get my levels back to normal range as well as using normal amounts of insulin again instead of having to use double..

    Just my 2cc worth
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold Schwarzenegger
    The mind always fails first, not the body. The secret is to make your mind work for you, not against you..
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpDogg View Post
    Dude u need to check with someone besides us. There are men here that are extremely intelligent and have Get knowledge in hormones. However i think u need to speak to someone like Dr.D to get the full scoop on this.. Insulin isn't something to mess with and i know u know this.

    Personally i would be hitting up pubmed and the like checking to see what i could find in medical journals. I would also try and find men who use AAS who are also type 1 and see what they have to say as well..

    Lastly i would stop the cycle. Hit pct and get my levels back to normal range as well as using normal amounts of insulin again instead of having to use double..

    Just my 2cc worth


    You would be suprised how hard it is to find info on this subject...
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    Not much research out there on AAS an diabetics, and the ones there are use TRT doses, not bodybuilding doses. Seems if you have low test levels and are diabetic, TRT may improve glucose sensitivity. Higher doses prob have the opposite effect though, considering theres some research linking high doses of AAS with insulin resistance. I put a couple links at the bottom for you to check out

    Boyanov, M.A., Boneva, Z. & Christov, V.G. (2003) Testosterone supplementation in men with type 2 diabetes, visceral obesity and partial androgen deficiency. Aging Male, 6, 17.

    Corrales, J.J., Burgo, R.M., Garca-Berrocal, B., Almeida, M., Alberca, I., Gonzalez-Buitrago, J.M., Orfa, A. & Miralles, J.M. (2004) Partial androgen deficiency in aging type 2 diabetic men and its relationship to glycemic control. Metabolism, 53, 666672.

    Cohen, J.C. & Hickman, R. (1987) Insulin resistance and diminished glucose tolerance in powerlifters ingesting anabolic steroids. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 64, 960963.
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    if you are on cycle you should be eating more to support growth. If you eat more you will need more insulin. up the protien, back off the carbs. What insulin are you taking, and how much insulin did you take before cycle and now. hows your kidneys, are you taking in enough water?
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckler7 View Post
    if you are on cycle you should be eating more to support growth. If you eat more you will need more insulin. up the protien, back off the carbs. What insulin are you taking, and how much insulin did you take before cycle and now. hows your kidneys, are you taking in enough water?
    I used to take lantus, which is LONG acting (24 hour) as a basal at 24 units. NOW I take 30. SO thats no biggie. Its hard to figure out basal dosages...


    BUT, EVERY time I eat, I have to take NOLVALOG, which is a fast/rapid acting insulin. I generally eat 5 meals a day, and use 30 units total by the end of the day, now Im on cycle its more like 50 units per day. I think it may be do to HIGH protein! I am eating 300g a day, as apposed to more like 200ish. I read a study that even in "regualar non diabitc" people protein can be insulinogenic as much so as carbs in high amounts!?
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    While protein will not spike your insulin levels the same way that sugar (carbohydrates) do, excess protein can elevate insulin. Typically, protein has a lower GI/GL but when the body cannot assimilate the amount ingested, excess insulin will be needed to cram it into the cells (fat cells as well).

    Now, given the fact you are a Type-I, your insulin response/release is functionaly impaired (either non-existatnt are not as prevalent); hence the need for exogenous insulin. Your issues and subsequent needs could be entirely different than a non-diabetic so be careful with the advice in this thread.

    This journal seems to indicate an opposite phenomenon occuring (enhanced insulin sensitivity); albeit the protein intake was within normal ranges. If anything, this will allow you to begin to understand your physiology. http://jn.nutrition.org/content/112/4/681.full.pdf

    Insulin is not only anti-catabolic, it is also lipogenic when there is excess is in circulation. So, can insulin make you fat? Hell yes it can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantell View Post
    I am eating 300g a day, as apposed to more like 200ish. I read a study that even in "regualar non diabitc" people protein can be insulinogenic as much so as carbs in high amounts!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    While protein will not spike your insulin levels the same way that sugar (carbohydrates) do, excess protein can elevate insulin. Typically, protein has a lower GI/GL but when the body cannot assimilate the amount ingested, excess insulin will be needed to cram it into the cells (fat cells as well).

    Now, given the fact you are a Type-I, your insulin response/release is functionaly impaired (either non-existatnt are not as prevalent); hence the need for exogenous insulin. Your issues and subsequent needs could be entirely different than a non-diabetic so be careful with the advice in this thread.

    This journal seems to indicate an opposite phenomenon occuring (enhanced insulin sensitivity); albeit the protein intake was within normal ranges. If anything, this will allow you to begin to understand your physiology. http://jn.nutrition.org/content/112/4/681.full.pdf

    Insulin is not only anti-catabolic, it is also lipogenic when there is excess is in circulation. So, can insulin make you fat? Hell yes it can.
    h,

    Ugh, I know it can make you fat, but WHEN? I mean, how do you know when there is excess? What if you have ALOT of slin floating around, but are below maintanence cals? That would go against physiollogy rite? I mean, you cant gain weight/fat while being calorie deficet?
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    Void of any pathology/disease/disorders, this would be accurate.

    There are so many complicted hormonal and compensatory feedback-loop mechanisms going on that an answer that is less than ambiguous is tough.

    Let's put it like this. If you are on too much insulin, but hypocaloric, you wouldn't gain fat necessarily (although one could still argue that your macro intakes would play some role) but the insulin would inhibit some of the natural fat burning processes that otherwise might be occuring and shifting your metabolism to.

    Insulin is a scary product to be self-medicating w/o substantial knowledge. I encourage you to talk to your docs. Just tell thjem you are on legal prohormones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cantell View Post
    I mean, you cant gain weight/fat while being calorie deficet?
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    Here: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/2/429.full

    In summary, the hormonal, metabolic, and body composition changes following correction of extreme hyperandrogenism in this patient indicate that testosterone may improve insulin sensitivity both directly and through changes in body composition. Our data suggesting that testosterone is not unequivocally sensitizing, and that sex or other characteristics may influence the response of glucose metabolism to testosterone, underscore the need for further investigations in this area.
    That stated, you have a very different physiology/make-up than non-diabetics.
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    Here: http://eurjhf.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/44.full

    3.2. Fasting insulin sensitivity
    Insulin sensitivity as measured by the HOMA index improved on testosterone compared to placebo. The mean treatment effect [and 95% confidence intervals] of testosterone on HOMA-IR was a reduction (−1.90.8, p=0.03) [−0.16 to −3.6] compared to placebo. This effect was explained by a reduction in both the fasting insulin and glucose (see Table 2). The reduction in HOMA-IR was inversely correlated with the increase in bioavailable testosterone (rP=−0.58, p=0.04) but not total testosterone (rP=−0.38, p=0.2)
    This long article discussed insulin sensitivity increases as well. It also goes on to represent that in a different way in that they performed tests on men with low Testosterone and these men were also at greater risk for Diabetes (type II) as well as metabolic syndrome.

    http://eurjhf.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/44.full
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    http://www.dlife.com/diabetes-news/2...correlate.html

    Researchers are accumulating clinical evidence that links low testosterone levels to long-term medical conditions such as metabolic syndrome, Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, osteoporosis and depression. Additionally, studies have shown that men who suffer from obesity, diabetes or hypertension may be twice as likely to have low testosterone levels. Several published studies have shown the beneficial effects on men's health by normalizing testosterone levels with testosterone replacement therapy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantell View Post
    I used to take lantus, which is LONG acting (24 hour) as a basal at 24 units. NOW I take 30. SO thats no biggie. Its hard to figure out basal dosages...


    BUT, EVERY time I eat, I have to take NOLVALOG, which is a fast/rapid acting insulin. I generally eat 5 meals a day, and use 30 units total by the end of the day, now Im on cycle its more like 50 units per day. I think it may be do to HIGH protein! I am eating 300g a day, as apposed to more like 200ish. I read a study that even in "regualar non diabitc" people protein can be insulinogenic as much so as carbs in high amounts!?
    I was on the same meds, I take 40units of lantus now. The nolvalog was good, but the humalog made me pack on the weight. When I have a really intense workout, my sugar is low and I have to eat like crazy to catch up with it, seems like for severall hours after workout days I struggle to get my sugar back up to normal. Are you adding the nolvalog th to lantis cause 50 units of nolva sounds high, I would use roughly 15-20 at most.
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    I was on 30 lantus a day and 15 nolvalog so that would put me around 45 units a day with them added together. I take the solastar lantus now at 40 a day an 15-20 humalog
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckler7 View Post
    I was on 30 lantus a day and 15 nolvalog so that would put me around 45 units a day with them added together. I take the solastar lantus now at 40 a day an 15-20 humalog
    You got by on 15-20 units the whole day!?

    I take 30 units of lantus at night.


    And 20-40 total throughout the day of nolvalog. I mean, if 10 carbs takes 1 unit to cover, If I eat 200 carbs thatd be 20 units, 400 carbs would be.....40 units.
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    Isn't insulin a storage hormone, plain and simple? So regardless of calorie levels and macro percentages, if there is insulin, it IS storing something? Here's how I understand it. When your blood sugar goes up, your body uses insulin to dispose of it. Well, if you are insulin desensitized, your body will increase insulin. But that desensitization is only present in some tissues, such as muscle. Other tissues will HAVE to make up for the desensitization, because your body must lower your blood sugar. So, even in a calorie deficit, if you only drink one Coke and nothing else the whole day, that blood sugar will be stored as fat. Now if you have reduced insulin sensitivity in your muscles, even MORE of that glucose will be stored as adipose tissue. Now whether you are at enough of a caloric deficit would determine if your body tapped into that fat for energy, or tapped into muscle, but that's another story. Insulin is there to store blood sugar somewhere in your body to get it out of your blood, regardless of any other factors. I'm pretty sure that's how things work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by diablosho View Post
    Isn't insulin a storage hormone, plain and simple? So regardless of calorie levels and macro percentages, if there is insulin, it IS storing something? Here's how I understand it. When your blood sugar goes up, your body uses insulin to dispose of it. Well, if you are insulin desensitized, your body will increase insulin. But that desensitization is only present in some tissues, such as muscle. Other tissues will HAVE to make up for the desensitization, because your body must lower your blood sugar. So, even in a calorie deficit, if you only drink one Coke and nothing else the whole day, that blood sugar will be stored as fat. Now if you have reduced insulin sensitivity in your muscles, even MORE of that glucose will be stored as adipose tissue. Now whether you are at enough of a caloric deficit would determine if your body tapped into that fat for energy, or tapped into muscle, but that's another story. Insulin is there to store blood sugar somewhere in your body to get it out of your blood, regardless of any other factors. I'm pretty sure that's how things work!
    your organs soley operate on sugar, insulin binds with sugar making it available for use. without insulin you body cant even store sugar as fat, thats why when people first become diabetic they lose 50 to 100lbs in months
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantell View Post
    You got by on 15-20 units the whole day!?

    I take 30 units of lantus at night.


    And 20-40 total throughout the day of nolvalog. I mean, if 10 carbs takes 1 unit to cover, If I eat 200 carbs thatd be 20 units, 400 carbs would be.....40 units.
    I dont use much insulin because i surf. If your very active your body will use less insulin. I also have a hard time keeping my weight up, I spend hours in the water at a time which would probably be like spening hours a day doing cardio as well as weight lifting.
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    My doctor is the doctor that cures diabetics (mainly type 2) with testosterone. It definitely increases insulin sensitivity over time. These short term fluctuations are most likely do to your increased activity/energy.
  

  
 

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