IV Slin? - AnabolicMinds.com

IV Slin?

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    IV Slin?


    Does anybody have any data, studies, anecdotes, etc. on slin injected intraveneously. i have never heard of BBers using this method, however i do know enough to know slin CAN be injected IV.

    certainly, this would SEEM to be a method that would result in the quickest rise in insulin activity (vs. IM or SQ) however, i almost never hear it talked about, studies, etc.

    now, i am well aware, that this is DANGEROUS (as is slin use in general), and i am NOT recommending ANYBODY try this. i am merely asking for studies, anecdotes, whatever.

    i do know somebody who injected slin IV, (did this with a partner standing by for safety reasons) and seemed to notice a quicker onset, but that is one example only, and not very scientific.

    i would love to see Bobo, the study God (tm) chime in on this.

    certainly, the most 'radical" way to use slin, methinks.

    is this a taboo subject, one that is not well studied, or what?

    i realize the drawback of trackmarks would definitely be a negative, if the same spot was hit too often.

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    bump
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    I would love to know about this also
    dick
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    well, let's bump it baybee.

    like i said, i have seen somebody DO this. i'd just like to know about the relative costs/benefits
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    I don't have any studies to quote but I can speak from experience that I have had with pts. Would it work I would think yes, but the risk is wway to great. Slin given IV works within seconds. There is no warning like dizziness or dry mouth unlike what you get from sub-Q or IM. The symptoms can be instantanious. You will go hypoglycemic before you can get anything in your system to combat the effects. You would more than likely end up in what is known as diabetic coma, or you could die. Their is no building up to a maximum dose IV. 3iu of slin given IV can bottom out your blood glucose, so just think what would happen if you jumped straight into 5-10iu. More than likely death.
    Don't you think if IV was the best option everybody would be doing it.
    If you don't value your life very much, give it a try.
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    i appreciate the response.

    but i gotta say, it is not "more than likely" because i have seen somebody IV inject 10 iu's of slin on 4 occasions, and on no occasion did anything negative happen. not that i could see.

    you could say "it's possible" but you make it sound like it's a near certainty.

    i saw a guy do this who had only done slin 2X before, btw. so what i quote below from your post is not really consistent with my experience

    "so just think what would happen if you jumped straight into 5-10iu. More than likely death."

    and fwiw, i am not suggesting that it's the best option. different delivery methods have different cost/benefits. that's true of almost all drugs.

    what i am trying to get is hard data on effects.

    *if* the effectiveness of anabolism through SLIN would be increased via the faster time to peak blood levels, for instance.

    i am well aware it's dangerous.

    slin is dangerous, period. is it more dangerous than SQ or IM? i would think so.
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    What kind of slin were they using? Humalog, Humalin R, N or 70/30

    If they didn't get any side effects from 10iu of slin then they need to check the potency.

    The last time I gave a patient 10iu of Humalin R IV he got diaphoretic, cool, clammy, and **** all over himself. His blood sugar was 650 before and 10minutes after the injection it was 70.

    I hate that I am the only one responding to this because IV slin can KILL. Man your friends are idiots. All ots going to take is them missing a meal or a carb drink before injecting and it could be over.
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    main reason I didn't respond to this one was that it just seemed to "bizarre" to even think about..
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    Yes, this is a very bizzare thread. IV slin is NOT a good idea, doing it sub-q can kill easily, IV is just asking for trouble.

    ManBeast
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    My questions is why? Humalog's actions start around 10 minutes afer injection so what are the benefits between that and 10 seconds? There is only so much glycogen skeletal muscle can hold so when you achieve supercompinsation, that is it. Whether this is achieved withinh 2 hours or 4 hours (which most likely never happens anyway) the effects will be the same. THe only benefit would hbe if your using an IV drip with a constant supply of insulin along with glucose to maintain supercompinsation 24/7 for weeks at a time. Most stuides (I'll find them if you want) sow that supercompinsation can be maintained for 24-72 hours after it is achieved so there really is no point to an IV inject. The danger aspect is increased greatly to. It doesn't make sense.
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    I really need to get a spell checker...
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    I've been working with this one for awhile actually. Mainly just looking for a way to bring down mr BG's when they go high. IV was too quick and unpredictable the onset was immediate and way more potent than with sub-q. With IM the effects were more predictable, the onset was within five minutes and seemed to peak in about 20min. Sub-q injects take about 15-20 minutes for onset and about 1.5hours to peak.

    This was using Humalog and the effects were ones that I've noted only on me. I've been using insulin for a long time and am well aware of how I feel when my BG levels are dropping. I wouldnt suggest anyone doing this and as Bobo stated for bodybuilding purposes WHY?

    Type I for longer than I care to remember.
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    to answer the questions, it was 8-12 IU's IV slin Humulin R. (smallest was 8, highest was 12)

    it was definitely potent.

    by side effects, i mean "negative" side effects. It was definitely working though.

    Carb administration was 50 gms of carbs via ultra fuel immediately before IV injection and 50 gms afterwards, taken with creatine, glutamine and whey protein.

    ruffneck, i totally agree that IV slin can kill. heck, SQ or SM slin can kill as well. Is IV slin MORE dangerous than SQ or SM? i would think so.

    my point in bringing this up was to get actual data. you can just say "it's too dangerous, don't do it", but frankly, that is the same response many would give to ANY bber wanting to take ANY amount of slin whether SQ, IM or IV

    i'd rather just know vs. operating on rumours. and I appreciate the responses from everyone.
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    JJJD I'm not hating on you bro...I have seen slin kill. I've an 18yo girl(healthy otherwise) die from a malfunction of her insulin pump. I just don't want you or your friends to end up like that.
    Your friends need to realize that IV slin is instantaneous maximum effects. Sub Q or IM is a gradual onset of the effects. All it would take is having a depleted glycogen storage and the next thing you know there out.
    I wish I had some data for you but I don't the only thing I have is personnal witnessed events.
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    i really appreciate it, and i just wanted to make my reasons for asking clear. the reason i asked was threefold. one, i never hear people talk about IV injection. i've read up a lot on SQ and IM but there is next to nothing on IV. i also have experience working on a medic crew, so i'm well aware that death is a possibility with slin.

    also, Humulin R is OTC, and Humalog isn't. Humalog, otoh is faster acting. for that reason, humalog is also preferred for bbing/strength training. so, anything that could help speed up humulin to act "more like" humalog would seem to be more optimal, since humulin is the obtainable one (i personally don't break any laws, nor does my friend), but humalog is the preferred one.

    i think it sux that humalog is NOT otc, but maybe it will be soon.

    and three, i have already seen it done, and i want to be able to give this guy som real information about the dangers and benefits(if any) while still strongly advising against it.

    also, one other interesting side effect reported on IV slin is that there is an almost instantaneous (within 1-3 seconds) taste sensation from IV slin. personally, i experienced a similar effect from IV saline when i was in the hospital (big loss of blood - long story). almost instantaneously when the drip started, i got a weird (but not unpleasant) taste in my mouth

    i want to make clear that i do not recommend (in fact, i advise strongly against ANYBODY using insulin unless under an MD's care. ANY form of insulin, in any method of administration).

    however, given the cutting edge info here, i thought this a good place to ask. even if only in a "gee whiz, what would happen if..." scenario.

    i recall one thread where some guy miscalculated and injected 30 iu's of IGF instead of 3.

    !!!!!!

    with insulin, an error of a factor of 10 (heck, a factor of a lot less than that) WILL kill. no doubt about it.

    and i also fear that people who have been lulled into a sense of security due to "boy cried wolf syndrome" won't take slin seriously enough. what i mean by the BWCW syndrome is that authorities have made so many false claims of steroid danger (that athletes have determined to be false) that when a lEGITIMATE claim of danger is made (slin) people might discount that. i know enough about pharmacology to know that it is one of the most powerful drugs out there. LD50 is not far removed at all from therapeutic doses, let alone bber doses

    ruffneck, i am sorry to hear about the 18 yr old girl as well. with my experience in the medic community, i have seen similarly sad things, and they are never easy
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    The questions still remains, WHY?

    Your reasoning behind Humalog is not correct. The reason it is used it because it peaks fast and leaves the system fast because prolonged systemic effect would only cause you to get extremely fat. So Speeding up how fast it works (when you compare 1-3seconds to 10 minutes) does not make once difference on supercompensation or protein synthesis.
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    i aready said WHY.

    because humulin is otc and humalog isn't. humalog is faster acting AND faster clearing (excuse me for leaving that out) than humulin and preferred in the strength training/bbing community. hence, it appears to me that any method of administration that would "speed up" humulin would be a good thing.

    the question is, that i have yet to see answered is: does IV admin cause both a faster peak and faster clearing, or just a faster peak WITHOUT faster clearing (i would suspect the former more than the latter) or what?
    one can certainly use humulin R SQ or IM and get good benefit and NOT get fat, assuming proper diet, etc. but a method that gave humulin faster clearing would be good, nu?

    so does humulin R injected IV clear the system faster as well?
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    Humalog is just as easy to get as its non prescription in Canada is not illegal to purchase through a website and import into the states.


    I just told you speeding it up won't do a damn thing because your not changing the pharmacology of the drug, your just introducing it faster. Just because it take 1-3 seconds to become active doesn't mean the effects of the drug will be different. (peak, active, half lives)
    And no it won't cause a faster peak and faster clearing. The effects will be identical. Instead of taking 10 minutes to become active in the body, its takes 1-3 seconds. What don't you get?

    If I inject anything directly into the bloodstream doens't mean the active life changes, it just means it gets directly injected into the blood. That it all!

    Humalog is Humalog, and Humalin R is Humalin R. They react the way they do because of their structure. Injecting it into the blood doens't change that. It just makes it more dangerous because the amount of time for you to get any circulting glucose present is shortened by a lot. It doesn't make sense.

    Thats like saying I can change the half-life of a steroid by injecting it through an IV. It doesn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    i aready said WHY.

    ?
    Not really. Whether its legal or illegal it still doesn't make sense and THAT is what I wanted an answer to.
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    I have to disagree with you on this one Bobo. IV injection does change the duration of insulin. The PDR says that IV has a onset of 10-30min, a peak of 15-30min, and a duration of 50min-1hour. SubQ has a onset of 15-45min, a peak of 2-3hrs, and a duration of 5-7.
    This is an old PDR and doesn't have Humalog in it since it is a fairly new insulin.
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    I was going by this.

    Treatment of Diabetic Ketoacidosis With Insulin Aspart Injections Vs. IV Regular Insulin Avoids ICU Care, Cutting Hospital Costs Nearly 40 Percent, Study Shows

    Other Study Shows People With Diabetes Prefer Combination of Insulin Aspart and FlexPen(R) By More Than Eight-to-One Over Other Rapid-Acting Insulin and Pen Delivery Device

    "All three treatments were equally effective, and there were no patient deaths. There were no significant differences between patients treated with SC-1hr, SC-2hr, or IV regular insulin, respectively, in the average duration of treatment until correction of hyperglycemia"


    Glucose-lowering effect of insulin by different routes in obese and lean nonketotic diabetic patients
    MN Shahshahani and


    The absorption of insulin and its glucose-lowering effect were compared after the administration of crystalline insulin by sc, im, and iv routes in 29 obese and 10 lean nonketotic diabetic patients, none of whom had consciously received insulin previously. Each of the patients received insulin in a dose of 0.1 U/kg BW by the im, sc, and iv routes in a randomized fashion on 3 different days. Plasma glucose, immunoreactive insulin (IRI), and immunoreactive glucagon (IRG) were measured at intervals over the first 4 h. The t1/2 (mean +/- SEM) after iv administration of insulin in obese and lean diabetics was, respectively, 5.3 +/- 0.2 and 4.8 +/- 0.4 min; these were not significantly different. Intravenous injection produced its highest level of IRI in 2 min in both groups. Thereafter, a rapid drop was observed with return to the basal level by 90 min. Equivalent amounts of im and sc insulin produced a maximal increase in plasma IRI at 60 min in both groups. Plasma IRI after iv insulin injection was significantly higher than after sc and im insulin injections at 10 and 20 min (P less than 0.001) and significantly lower than the im and sc groups at 60, 90, 120, 150, 180, 210, and 240 min (P less than 0.001). After iv insulin, plasma glucose at 30, 40, 50, and 60 min was significantly lower than after im and sc insulin (P less than 0.001), but over the 4-h study period, the glucose-lowering effect and the area under the curves for glucose response to IRI by the three routes were the same in both lean and obese diabetic subjects. The mean basal IRI in lean patients was 18 +/- 4 microU/ml, which was significantly lower (P less than 0.05) than in obese patients (26 +/- 2 microU/ml). No significant difference was observed in fasting IRG in lean (96 +/- 12 pg/ml) vs. obese (108 +/- 10 pg/ml) patients. No significant increase in IRG was noted with equivalent amounts of sc, im, and iv injection in the lean and obese patients. These studies demonstrated that although iv injection of insulin produces a more rapid initial decline in plasma glucose, the overall glucose-lowering effect by insulin given iv, im or sc is similar in nonketotic lean or obese diabetic subjects.




    http://www.eboncall.org/CATs/2066.htm

    "The route used to administer insulin in patients with diabetic ketoacidosis had no clear effect on the time taken to return to biochemical normality or the amount of insulin required."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffneck
    I have to disagree with you on this one Bobo. IV injection does change the duration of insulin. The PDR says that IV has a onset of 10-30min, a peak of 15-30min, and a duration of 50min-1hour. SubQ has a onset of 15-45min, a peak of 2-3hrs, and a duration of 5-7.
    This is an old PDR and doesn't have Humalog in it since it is a fairly new insulin.
    What type was that? I was thinking hospitals might use a different type for IV's. It doens't make sense though. Its the same drug, why would it change the amount its present in the system. Its not like IM or SubQ slows absortion down that much. Overall the effects on supercompensation will be the same though so it still doesn't make sense to increase the risk of going hypo in 5 minutes.
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    see THIS is what i am looking for... dualing studies.

    and btw, i am not an "expert in pharmacology". i am very well versed in the law, though.

    and just because humalog is OTC in CANADA, that does not mean you can legally order it and have it shipped to the US w/o prescription.

    it is still a violation of the law

    it is prescription in the US. you need a script.

    and the 90 day exception doesn't apply since it's not experimental

    i think (at least at this point) based on your study vs. ruffneck's info, that the jury IS still out on whether IV clears the system faster,etc.
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    also, bobo, based on your study, it DOES appear to clear the system faster...it says the overall effect (which is not an anabolic effect i might add) is similar, however

    with IV, IRI reached maximal level in 2 minutes, and was back to basal in 90 minutes

    that is much much quicker to max level than SC or IM. which took 60 minutes.

    that is a hyoooge difference

    frankly, your study (after i reread it) i think bolsters my (wild assed guess) that IV insulin would give quicker peak time, more profound effect, and quicker clearance.

    would those NOT be good things, if one is solely talking about anabolic effect?
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    Humalin R is used for IV in the hospital. The usual treatment for DKA is a bolus of 0.33iu/kg followed with a continuous infusion at 0.1iu/kg/hour. The infusion usually consists of 100iu in 100ml of NS equalling 1iu/ml.

    When I first read your articles, it sounded like is was saying that IV, subQ, or IM would give the same results. After rereading it once or twice, the first article shows that IV, subQ or IM has the same effects with the same amount in both skinny or obese diabetics.
    The post from eboncall was hard to understand but what it concluded is that to return the body to biochemical normality it took approximately the same amount of insulin and the same amount of time. It looks like the amount of insulin given IV, IM, or SubQ is given in one dose at the same time. What it does not tell you is how often the injections are given or the amount of insulin that is given with each injection.

    With the usual treatment of DKA, the IV amount is given continuously,or the subQ is usually given starting ever 2-4hr according to a glucometer reading and based on a sliding scale.

    I dont know exactly how it is broken down and how it is absorbed, but one thing is for sure only a fool would risk it no matter how anabolic it is.
    I would think with giving IV slin on a regular bases would end up affecting the way the body releases it own insulin and possibly leaving the person a insulin dependent diabetic.
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    that's good stuff. i think it falls under the category of very dangerous, definitely iconoclastic, and possibly having an anabolic benefit vs. SC or IM.

    it's not the kind of thing somebody is going to fund a study for, obviously, so the best one can do is look at studies where slin (IV, SC, IM) was administered for other purposes and try to get an (at best) reasonably educated guess.

    but again, i advise against anybody trying this.

    this should be viewed as a discussion of hypothetical "anabolic modalities"
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    also, bobo, based on your study, it DOES appear to clear the system faster...it says the overall effect (which is not an anabolic effect i might add) is similar, however

    with IV, IRI reached maximal level in 2 minutes, and was back to basal in 90 minutes

    that is much much quicker to max level than SC or IM. which took 60 minutes.

    that is a hyoooge difference

    frankly, your study (after i reread it) i think bolsters my (wild assed guess) that IV insulin would give quicker peak time, more profound effect, and quicker clearance.

    would those NOT be good things, if one is solely talking about anabolic effect?
    No, your wrong again as I already told you the amount that it clears or peaks does not have any effect on supercompensation (the main reason exogenous insulin is so anabolic). It doesn't matter how fast it is achieved, the results are over a longer peroid of time. Studies even show supercompensation can be maintained up to 72 hours after it is achieved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    see THIS is what i am looking for... dualing studies.

    and btw, i am not an "expert in pharmacology". i am very well versed in the law, though.

    and just because humalog is OTC in CANADA, that does not mean you can legally order it and have it shipped to the US w/o prescription.

    it is still a violation of the law

    it is prescription in the US. you need a script.

    and the 90 day exception doesn't apply since it's not experimental

    i think (at least at this point) based on your study vs. ruffneck's info, that the jury IS still out on whether IV clears the system faster,etc.
    If your that worried about the law, maybe you should look for other avenues.

    As for clearing the system, it doens't matter anyway. The whole arguement and premise is completely pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    also, bobo, based on your study, it DOES appear to clear the system faster...it says the overall effect (which is not an anabolic effect i might add) is similar, however

    ?
    It most certainly is th anabolic effect. Where do you think that glucose eventualy goes? Do you even know why exogenous insulin is so much more anabolic that physiological insulin release? Supercompensation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffneck
    The post from eboncall was hard to understand but what it concluded is that to return the body to biochemical normality it took approximately the same amount of insulin and the same amount of time. It looks like the amount of insulin given IV, IM, or SubQ is given in one dose at the same time. What it does not tell you is how often the injections are given or the amount of insulin that is given with each injection.



    I dont know exactly how it is broken down and how it is absorbed, but one thing is for sure only a fool would risk it no matter how anabolic it is.
    I would think with giving IV slin on a regular bases would end up affecting the way the body releases it own insulin and possibly leaving the person a insulin dependent diabetic.

    The same amount of insulin and the same amount of time? So what does that tell you about all of them and its ability to clear glucose from the blodstream? They are about the same but IV is much more dangerous since it does it quicker initially. SO the whle arguement is pointless as I've already stated numerous times. For some reaons people think the fast you fill glycogen stores the faster protein synthesis and the greater anabolic effect it will have and it ust is not true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    also, bobo, based on your study, it DOES appear to clear the system faster...it says the overall effect (which is not an anabolic effect i might add) is similar, however

    with IV, IRI reached maximal level in 2 minutes, and was back to basal in 90 minutes

    that is much much quicker to max level than SC or IM. which took 60 minutes.

    that is a hyoooge difference
    Umm....no it isnt. Why? Because it peaked quicker in the IV group then the rest, so the overall difference wasn't much at all. So from the time from peak to normal levels wanst much different at all.

    THe only main difference was that you get an almost instantaneous peak which is both pointless and dangerous.
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    several points...

    first of all, i am not "worried about the law". that's a strawman. however, i do FOLLOW the law. that is a choice i amke. THAT is why i would use humulin over humalog, if and when i would choose to use slin. because the former is available legally w/o a script.

    second of all, i find it intellectually dishonest for you to go into the strawmen and tangents about "worry" about the law instead of simply admit you were wrong when you said

    "Humalog is just as easy to get as its non prescription in Canada is not illegal to purchase through a website and import into the states."

    that is FALSE. it IS illegal. an extremely minor crime, but still illegal. but you don't seem willing to just admit that. you just move on to addressing my MOTIVATION vis a vis the law instead of conceding that you were giving legal info. that was incorrect. when i am wrong, i am more than willing to admit that.

    as to the anabolic effect, i am well aware of the issue of supercompensation. as a matter of fact, much of my training ideas are inspired by roman, vershoshansky etc. who practically live, eat and breathe supercompensation.

    however, every idea i floated about the faster peak time and the faster clearance time that might POSSIBLY (i am not saying i know this, i am merely asking questions and speculating as i make quite clear) result from IV slin use is just that - a question and speculation. despite what you say, i have not seen a persuasive argument that the faster peak and faster clearance time might not have a more profound effect in the post workout hormonal milieu. iow, i think the jury is still out. i think ruffneck made some good points and cited some good data as you did, but i don't think anybody has come close to establishing what (if any) benefits might come from IV administration. however, it is clear there ARE additional costs - ie significantly more danger. one of the caveats of slin use (moreso humulin than humulog) is that it DOES maintain elevated levels in the body for relatively long which means it is kind of easier to get fat using it if you aren't careful with diet for HOURS after the workout. a possible advantage i see of IV slin use is that there is a quicker peak, and a quicker clearance time which means one could return to more normal eating patterns quicker after IV use, since the lipid shuttling effect wouldn't be an issue since you have returned to basal levels in 90 minutes which IS quicker than SC or IM use, as the study showed. that IS a difference i see as interesting. it seems from what i am reading that the time under the graph so to speak is similar with the different methods of admin, however the peak is reached quicker and the clearance time is quicker. whether THAT has any advantages or not, i don't know, but it MIGHT/

    again, i am not recommending anybody use slin w/o a script, in any mode of administration, especially not IV.
  33. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    I wasn't wrong in what I said, you were. Just because you dont understand how insulin works is not my problem. I suggest you go back and reread the thread. The effects (anabalic)will be the same no matter what type is used. I told you that in the first post I made. You asked for studies, I gave them to you. What part of "the effects are similar" do you not understand? It seem YOUR the one that doens't want to admit anything but coming from a lawyer, I expect that.


    You have already shown your ignorance in the subject yet try very hard to keep this subject alive even though it is extremely dangerous and pointless as countless others can see.

    As for everything else, I realy don't care. You seem to love to always bring some sort of aspect of the law into every conversation then go off on some tangent to prove to everyone you have some sort of fascination with the law. Frankly, nobody cares.


    And no there wasn't a difference from the last time. For some reason you don't want to do the math.

    IV : 1-3 seconds to peak, back to noramal in 60 minutes.
    SQ" 20 minutes to peak, 90 minutes back to normal.

    70-60=10

    WOW, A whole 10 minute difference. See, in science that is called statistically insignificant.

    And if you actually did any research on this matter you could easily answer your own questions instead of dragging this out any furhter. The PEAK has nothing to do with the anabolic effect. Once supercompensation is achieved, it DOESN"T MATTER! Now you say your familiar with supercompensation but judging from your posts, you clearly are not.
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  34. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Intellectually dishonest? Right...


    You start a thread about IV insulin use then criticize me. Stick to law.






    ,
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