Peptides and joint restoration
06-04-2010 12:07 AM
Peptides and joint restoration
I got a quick question. I've had two ACL reconstructions on my knee, as well as a feeble attempt of reattaching some medial meniscus a few years ago. As of late, I had an MRI and it showed some early signs of arthritis (menisicus deterioration, etc.). It also showed that there was possibly some minor damage to my ACL and PCL. I'm 21 and have had 6 knee surgeries so I'm strongly opposed to going under the knife again. I've been talking to some guys with Regenexx (mesenchymal stem cells) but since my insurance won't cover it I'll be out around 10 grand. I've been looking into peptides, particiularly ghrp-6 and igf-1 lr3. This would be a more cost efficient option obviously, but I wanted to know if you'd talked to anyone who has had joint restorative results. I read Anthony Roberts's take on grhp-6, but take it worth a grain of salt considering he mentioned injecting it locally into the joint which wouldn't matter with that peptide would it? If i do end up having the stem cells injected, do you think it would be worth purchasing some sort of growth factor to improve results?
06-04-2010 06:09 AM
Peptides are going to be a lot cheaper than the stems cells and if they don't work you are out like 200 bucks. If the stem cells didn't work it would be a much greater loss.
It turns out that ghrp-6 does have localized effects so site injections would be beneficial. Doing a 100mcg before bed would be good. You can also inject some peg-mgf (like a 100 mics) into the area at this time if you like but it is not necessary. While the ghrp-6 could be injected all at once, you would want to inject the peg-mgf in 5 different location at the back of the knee.
Your best bet, along with the nightly ghrp-6, would be doing micro-doses of igf-1. You would inject 5mcg in 5-10 locations at the back of the knee three times a day. This is going to blow...but thankfully, it is only a slin pin. If you study an anatomy chart, you should be able to approximate where the ACL and PCL are located inside the knee joint and center your injections around that area.
06-06-2010 11:26 AM
I've had and done myself intra-articular injections- synvisc and DMSO. I follow what the doctors do and inject under the patella in the junction where the tibia and femur meet at the knee. Works like a charm. I have a steel clip stuck in the back of my knee and my doctor does not want to go in from the back of the knee due to all the nerves and blood vessels there - so just be cautious if injecting in the back of the knee.
How on earth does GHRP-6 have local action? Any studies?
06-06-2010 09:03 PM
This is interesting.. I was just thinking of going with growth, but I like what you guys are saying.. keep going!
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06-07-2010 02:44 PM
Thanks for the info guys. I also am wondering about any studies for localized ghrp-6 results. I'm sure my best bet is to try the peptides first especially for pocket sparing. Would rHGH yield better results? As far as the intra-articular injections, I am very keen on the idea, but realistically what are the drawbacks if I "miss". Which did you inject by way of the "soft" area above the head of the fibula or some place else. Unfortunately, I forgot to mention the ACL I have now is from a cadaver and I fear any reparative abilities my body undergoes will not include my "dead" ACL, but i'm sure crazier things have happened. It's unfortunate the performance-enhancement stigma restricts use of chemicals that have so much potential.
06-07-2010 02:55 PM
I'm trying out igf-1 for my arthritis in my elbow.
06-07-2010 10:00 PM
one of my friends swears by Aquadan - its a vet product that is for joints. I cannot find a source. You may want to look into Prolotherapy as well. Reading DatbTru's peptide thread - it seems GH is produced locally but its internal to the cells - they produce a receptor for GH that is immediately filled by the GH they produce - so no external GH is taken in with that process. So I wonder if locally peptides would do anything...
06-08-2010 01:36 AM
I've been trying to get my hands on some Adequan. From what I've heard it's great for degeneration injuries especially. I got a dog with pretty bad arthritis, but not a vet that's going to call in an online prescription for me to inject to my dog at home.
06-08-2010 04:50 AM
Growth hormone secretagogues modulate the electrical and contractile properties of rat skeletal muscle through a ghrelin-specific receptor
Sabata Pierno, et. al.
Br J Pharmacol. 2003 June; 139(3): 575–584. Published online 2003 June 9.
This study shows for the first time that GHS directly affect skeletal muscle function. We demonstrate that peptidic and nonpeptidic GHS, as well as ghrelin, the endogenous ligand of GHS receptor, applied in vitro to rat skeletal muscle produce a concentration-dependent reduction of gCl and gK. This reduction is totally suppressed by [D-Lys-3]-GHRP-6 (Kojima et al., 1999), indicating the presence of a specific GHS receptor in skeletal muscle. At the moment, we cannot say whether the GHS receptor of rat skeletal muscle is the same as that found in the pituitary (GHS-R Ia) (Howard et al., 1996), or whether it is a receptor subtype like that described in the heart (Bodart et al., 1999), or perhaps one still to be identified (Muccioli et al., 2002). Some authors have supposed that the GHS binding sites found in human skeletal muscle are different from the first one cloned in the pituitary because they showed lower affinity for ghrelin and for some nonpeptidic GHS (Papotti et al., 2000). Recent studies have shown expression of the mRNA for ghrelin but not that of GHS-R Ia in human skeletal muscle, suggesting a role for ghrelin in this tissue and its possible interaction with a still unknown GHS-R subtype (Gnanapavan et al., 2002)."
Ghrelin and Des-Acyl Ghrelin Promote Differentiation and Fusion of C2C12 Skeletal Muscle Cells
Nicoletta Filigheddu et. al.
Molecular Biology of the Cell Vol. 18, 986–994, March 200
Ghrelin and Des-Acyl Ghrelin Promote Differentiation and Fusion of C2C12 Myoblasts in Growth Medium
C2C12 myoblasts, a skeletal muscle satellite-derived cell line, is a common model to investigate cellular and molecular mechanisms of muscle differentiation. Upon culture in 2% horse serum, C2C12 cells exit the cell cycle, differentiate, and fuse into multinucleated skeletal myotubes expressing contractile proteins (Blau et al., 1985). The extracellular signals triggering growth arrest and the molecular mechanisms involved in the induction of myoblasts differentiation and fusion still remain to be elucidated."
(lolz, horse serum...)
Upon muscular injury, skeletal myoblasts are activated to terminally differentiate through an autocrine/paracrine loop. We may speculate that GHR would contribute to skeletal muscle plasticity, promoting the differentiation and fusion of myoblasts in the damaged muscles. If this hypothesis would be proved, the activation of the receptor mediating GHR and D-GHR differentiative activity as well as the overexpression of the hormone may provide novel therapeutic strategies for the reduction or retardation of several skeletal muscle pathologies, including dystrophies, atrophies, and cachexia. "
06-09-2010 10:53 AM
God post Rhyno - interesting. Sounds like it could work for muscular injuries, and correct me if I am wrong - but not for joint problems are cartilage and ligaments are different than skeletal muscle.
Originally Posted by Rhyno
Last edited by coolbreeze; 06-09-2010 at 11:08 AM.
06-09-2010 03:59 PM
if anyone has had any luck sweet talking their vet into calling in a script for some adequan pm me for any ideas.. i think it's more commonly prescribed for horses than canines even though they have an Adequan Canine... for coolbreeze, if there were an addition of myoblasts, it may transfer into the induction of fibroblasts as well, but i doubt they were too interested as they were looking at skeletal muscle
06-10-2010 02:02 PM
good point, but my ligaments are strong, I just have no cartilage left so would want to know the cartilage producing cells (chondrocytes) would also upregulate?
Originally Posted by jgassen15
06-10-2010 03:44 PM
that's the million dollar question. I'm not sure of any literature on it, but I know that a Dr. Dunn in Florida I read about has had a lot of luck with Intrarticular Growth Hormone. From his website it sounds like he goes in, cleans up scar tissue, and then performs the injections. If this is true, wouldn't IGF-1 produce even better results? It is probbaly age and injury severity-dependent, but definitely worth trying. From reading up on the boards somebody was pretty adament about IGF-1's inability to repair ligaments, but it is effective and sparking cartilage restoration. If that's the case, I'd still be more than happy to give it a try. I've also been told that Adequan works great for degeneration in joints, such as loss of meniscus. Peptides are relatively easy to attain, but vets are often less apt to pass out some canine drugs.
06-10-2010 03:48 PM
As far as ligament restoration grows, I found a few different studies that utilized Nerve Growth Factor (NGF) to heal ligaments. Granted mice and rabbits were used, this is till pretty interesting. As I probably can't get a hold of NGF, I lknow I've heard agmatine can cause the release of NGF. Any other ideas?
06-11-2010 12:40 AM
The point is that GHRPs have local effects. There are no studies (that I know of) that show their effects on collagenous tissues so they may or may not provide additional benefit. Ultimately, the choice whether or not to do direct injections is up to the "researcher." But since injecting, into the injury site doesn't have any negatives when compared to sub-q injections, it might be wise to do so.
Originally Posted by coolbreeze
06-11-2010 02:00 PM
definitely can't hurt my chances.. as far as length goes, how long should i run either?
06-13-2010 09:48 PM
actually I was just on PubMed and there are studies on IGF repairing and/or stimulating cartilage - it seems intra-articularly. Thing is would IGF-LR3 work or just the unbound IGF? I assume unbounded IGF?
And I tore my quad in that same leg so injecting the GHRP-6 into the muscle there certainly can only help, not hurt. For joint injects - I would go with IGF over GHRP's as more studies on it are out there.
06-14-2010 10:10 AM
I think I'm gonna try to the IGF-1 lr3 as well as the GHRP-6. Part of my trouble is the atrophy I'm having in my hamstring on the leg of my damaged knee, as my first ACL reconstruction was with a hamstring graph. That is why I think I damaged my PCL and ACL again after this last surgery. My legs are still pretty beefy, but there is a definity difference in my hamstrings and especially my gluteus medius and maximus. Anybody else have any other advice if I'm gonna try to inject the IGF-1 intra-articularly?
06-14-2010 12:02 PM
so youre sure the LR3 is the best version of IGF to inject? If so - then go for it - at worst it will just be a waste of IGF if it does nothing. But the upside is huge! Wonder if GHRP, since it does act locally -would help the joint as well? I would guess - yes.
06-14-2010 04:43 PM
i can't really be sure LR3 would be the best version, but by browsing the boards it seems this is what people been trying. I am going to continue to do some research before making any purchases, however. I would also think that the local of effects of GHRP would extend to connective tissue as well, just because of the potential as a growth factor. I'll let you know what I end up getting and I'll probably run my first log as well. There is an array of different supplements I'm going to take alongside that I will list as well when I get home.
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