"In God's Time"

[B5150]

Here is a situation that I wanted to share with you guys. Now this example happens to be about scripture and interpretation. But it does not necessarily need to be exclusive to Scripture. This can apply across many forms of literature across many subjects

Here we see Bryan make a point. He we see B5150 examining the data. Please note I did not say facts, I said data, specifically because we know that scripture is inherently faith based.

Notices at the end where I pointed out to study. Not only for others but also for myself.

If the creator made us to be perfect then what would there be to strive for?

You know you are right we were not created perfect otherwise there would be no need for perfecting or the perfection in Christ.

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Now read something that I found during some study*

Now look withing the quote at the red bolded scripture. Pay special attention to what you read. Read it again. Now read the quite again.

How many times do we hear people say "God's time is not our time", "His day is not the same as our day"

So here we have a situation where three days have been accounted for. Yet it was not until after that time elapsed did He say "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness."

So I would ask you, who's time was He going by the previous days before He "created signs to mark seasons and days and years...to govern"

Definitions:
govern - Definitions from Dictionary.com
governor - Definitions from Dictionary.com

I am not looking to start arguments and another one of those hate filled religious threads. There were a couple or few here that were capable of having reasonable discussion. I hope you can be stimulated by the food for thought. I know I was.

So did the scripture contradict itself?

Did it affirm itself?

Did man misstate something when He wrote the scripture?

Was is mistranslated over the generations?

Has scripture been misquoted or misinterpreted?

Does God have His own time?

Did God create "our time" or "man's time" when he created day and night to govern?

This is posted in the spirit of having some "intellectuality" without the need to abandon ones "faith".

Anyone?

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Was is mistranslated over the generations?

Has scripture been misquoted or misinterpreted?

Does God have His own time?

More than likely, yes.

Thus, I try focusing more on tha New rather than Old.

God gave Free Will and with that comes both choice and interpretation.


Just my .02...

 

[Nightwanderer]

I would think that prior to creating a physical distinction between light and dark, and prior to creating celestial bodies specifically to mark the passage of time, that perhaps that God in this case did not perceive time at all prior to these events. As we humans know time (quantum theory aside), it could not have existed without the very things created according to that particular scripture. So, in a way, it seems as it can be summarized as saying 'God created the very notion of time itself'. Because God is presumed immortal also, it seems to lend credence to the opinion that She would have no reason to perceive things in finite moments that pass. I personally think our perception of time has a lot to do with our psychological as well as spiritual fixations on mortality. Perhaps I'm veering too far off subject, but I couldn't really avoid it.

 

[CryingEmo]

Time is relative.

 

[DmitryWI]

Time is an illusion created by God, so everything wouldn't happen all at once.

 

[B5150]

Let me make it simple:

1. Did the scripture contradict itself?
   
2. Did it affirm itself?
   
3. Did man misstate something when He wrote the scripture?
   
4. Was is mistranslated over the generations?
   
5. Has scripture been misquoted or misinterpreted?
   
6. Does God have His own time?
   
7. Did God create "our time" or "man's time" when he created day and night to govern?

Answers are multiple choice. Check only one box per question.

1. [ ] Yes - [ ] No
2. [ ] Yes - [ ] No
3. [ ] Yes - [ ] No
4. [ ] Yes - [ ] No
5. [ ] Yes - [ ] No
6. [ ] Yes - [ ] No

 

[DmitryWI]

Ok, I will try...

1. Yes, I believe so.
2. Yes, I believe so.
3. Yes, I believe so.
4. Yes, I believe so.
5. Yes, I know so.
6. Yes, I know so.

 

[B5150]

1. Did the scripture contradict itself?
   
2. Did it affirm itself?
   
3. Did man misstate something when He wrote the scripture?
   
4. Was is mistranslated over the generations?
   
5. Has scripture been misquoted or misinterpreted?
   
6. Does God have His own time?
   
7. Did God create "our time" or "man's time" when he created day and night to govern?

Answers are multiple choice. Check only one box per question.

1. [ X ] Yes
2. [ X ] Yes
3. [ X ] Yes
4. [ X ] Yes
5. [ X ] Yes
6. [ X ] Yes

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

As far as I know...

God created time when He created the universe. Eternity exists outside of the confines of time. Which explains how God doesn't have a beginning or end. Outside of the created time that we humans are confined to, time as we know it does not exist.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

To further elaborate, here is an article by Rich Deem.



In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

* No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
* This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
* The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
* To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.

The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimension of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempt to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.1 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.

When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).2 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

Conclusion:
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

 

[B5150]

There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God...

The second interpretation is that God...

Conclusion:
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

So what you are trying to say is:

1. [ X ] Yes
2. [ X ] Yes
3. [ X ] Yes
4. [ X ] Yes
5. [ X ] Yes
6. [ X ] Yes

???

 

[B5150]

Again. There is only a "yes" or "no" answer required to the questions.

EDIT: In the real world, face to face, there are times and places where at the end of the day a person, an atheist or agnostic wants a simple candid answer. Yes, or no?

This is posted in the spirit of having some "intellectuality" without the need to abandon ones "faith".

I am intellectual enough to know that my beliefs are faith based. I do not need to prove my faith into someone else's intellectuality. My point is I demonstrate my faith buy practicing it while it is still beyond my intellectual minds capacity to comprehend. JMHO and I speak for myself.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

1. Not that I can tell
2. Sure
3. Not that I can tell
4. Not that I can tell
5. Sure, happens all the time
6. No
7. No, He created it when He created the universe.. It's just that He didn't establish guidelines for the passing of time that humans could comprehend until the 4th day.

I didn't quite follow the template, but a simple yes or no was just too simple.

 

[B5150]

1. Did the scripture contradict itself?
1. Not that I can tell
2. Did it affirm itself?
2. Sure
3. Did man misstate something when He wrote the scripture?
3. Not that I can tell
4. Was is mistranslated over the generations?
4. Not that I can tell
5. Has scripture been misquoted or misinterpreted?
5. Sure, happens all the time
6. Does God have His own time?
6. No
7. Did God create "our time" or "man's time" when he created day and night to govern?
7. No, He created it when He created the universe.. It's just that He didn't establish guidelines for the passing of time that humans could comprehend until the 4th day.

Final answer?

Read it again:

"Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

I didn't quite follow the template, but a simple yes or no was just too simple.

Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Do you accept His death and resurrection as forgiveness for your sins and through doing so receive eternal life?
Can you prove both?

As you can see we sometimes need to have a "yes" or "no" answer and nothing else will suffice. The single word answer to those three questions are the foundation of all of Christian faith.

Faith!

The rest...well you decide.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Final answer?

Read it again:

"Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

I'm sorry B, I need a further explanation. I'm just not seeing it!

 

[B5150]

I'm sorry B, I need a further explanation. I'm just not seeing it!

"And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day."

We have here established that it states that this is the third day. That suggests that there is a measure of time.


Then He proceeds to "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, day from the night,"

Seasons and days and years, these are measures of time.

We already have an established measure of time when He said "And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day."

But then He produces something that is an other measure of time.

Do you see what I am getting at?

He had a measure of time up until the third day. Then he produced a (an other?) measure of time after that."

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Ah.. How did I miss that!?

I completely overlooked that third day. Hmm, well B, good find. Wonder what's up with that.

 

[B5150]

I just don't want my lack of sight to cause me blindness.

 

[Ribo68]

"And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day."

We have here established that it states that this is the third day. That suggests that there is a measure of time.


Then He proceeds to "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, day from the night,"

Seasons and days and years, these are measures of time.

We already have an established measure of time when He said "And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day."

But then He produces something that is an other measure of time.

Do you see what I am getting at?

He had a measure of time up until the third day. Then he produced a (an other?) measure of time after that."

It seems to me that after the third day all He did was create a "marker" of sorts whereby we might distinguish a day's time. God knows days, months, years etc. without a watch or a calendar. Kinda like in Alaska when it stays light for days. Easy for us to lose track of what day it is if there is no night to divide the days from one another. I don't see it as being the changing of the unit of measure though.

 

[B5150]

Those are just speculations and interpretations. No? Does not the data, the word, leave this open for such, and therefore produce the inherent inconsistencies we have as believers.

For instance, what if I believe that He has His own time and He created this measure of time in days and night for us.

After all, we also believe that He is the Omnipotent Creator. Why should I limit His power and authority in His creations to what I can conceive?

1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

With all this unknown, how can we be of one mind if we are free to speculate and interpret individually as we wish?

I am not looking to argue or disagree. But where do we come to these conclusions and have the right to claim them as fact? I am intelligent enough to discern fact from speculation and truth from faith.

As I stated before "This is posted in the spirit of having some "intellectuality" without the need to abandon ones "faith".

 

[dsade]

After all, we also believe that He is the Omnipotent Creator. Why should I limit His power and authority in His creations to what I can conceive?



As I stated before "This is posted in the spirit of having some "intellectuality" without the need to abandon ones "faith".

My only contribution to this thread, to remain respectful to the OPs thread guidelines...

For the above, you don't have to limit anything, however if there are factors that exist above and beyond that would "make sense" and if such a being failed to create us able to grasp it, then some kind of punishment sentence cannot apply to us for NOT believing or having faith - especially where the only information comes from a book, second, third, 1000th hand reports of something that happened..,maybe - in a method of "knowledge" that is not even allowed in a civiized court system.

To base an eternal punishment on success or failure to fully embrace a rather hard-to-believe viewpoint, one must have all pertinent info as well as the complete set of faculties necessary to conclude. Considering that the descriptive of "omnipotent" was brought in, this should have been fully within his power.

 

[B5150]

Your observation is not without merit. Some would even say valid.

 

[soultrain]

...

 

[soultrain]

...what if I believe that He has His own time...

He does...God is timeless.

...He created this measure of time in days and night for us.

Yes. Scripture tells us that God created the Sun, Moon and stars to give light (brightening the utter darkness of the night sky) and to assist mankind (Genesis 1:14-15, etc.). One of the reasons that God made the Moon, solar system and stars was to provide a way for us to distinguish the passage of time (days, months and years) and predict the coming of seasons. Without these heavenly bodies, the job of keeping time and navigation would have been far more difficult.

Another purpose for the myriad of stars is to bring glory to God—focusing man's attention on the Creator's awesome power and greatness. Psalm 19:1 states,

“The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.”

The vastness of the universe is a tremendous expression of God's might and power. God is greater than we could ever imagine, even greater than His spectacular creation, the universe. Psalm 8:1,3,9 states,

“O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth, Who hast displayed Thy splendor above the heavens! …When I consider Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, The moon and the stars, which Thou has ordained; …O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth!”

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace.

With all this unknown, how can we be of one mind if we are free to speculate and interpret individually as we wish?

I think Paul means here that whatever can hinder unity among men, such as place or state in life, is not as strong as Christ’s power to unite. And that not only that the Corinthians should be of one mind among themselves, but of one mind with all those in the whole world who have the common Master (Christ).

In other words, despite everyone not agreeing on every finite point of scripture, we should be able to put our differences aside and unite as one in Christ.

 

[dkkon1]

1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

With all this unknown, how can we be of one mind if we are free to speculate and interpret individually as we wish?

I am not looking to argue or disagree. But where do we come to these conclusions and have the right to claim them as fact? I am intelligent enough to discern fact from speculation and truth from faith.

As I stated before "This is posted in the spirit of having some "intellectuality" without the need to abandon ones "faith".

As far as being of one mind I perceive that as speaking about the neccessary truths and foundation of our faith, while you ask a valid question, it just doesn't matter in a faith based environment, we're not supposed to know everything, there are mysteries that will simply never be solved. As you quoted :

1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

So in summation, I think that being of one mind, didn't necessarily mean agreeing on every single facet of life. God knows that there are area's of life that aren't specifically explained in scripture, and wouldn't direct Paul to put unrealistic expectations upon his followers. I think that it speaks about being of one mind, or one goal which is furthering the gospel, spreading the good news, making disciples of all men, etc.

 

[dkkon1]

Great topic B5150, and i'm glad the thread hasn't been tarnished with hate-speach. I need to check out this section more often.

 

[Nightwanderer]

Great topic B5150, and i'm glad the thread hasn't been tarnished with hate-speach. I need to check out this section more often.

I thought it would be interesting until everything was given check boxes for yes/no only answers. I realize it was probably just an attempt to cut a lot of incoherent crap out of people's responses, but I found it too limiting to hold my interest.

 

[B5150]

Well, as you guys know, I keep no secret that I am a Christian. But I will be quite candid with you, someone like dsade, does have some grounds for his lack of embracing the gospel and the concept of an omnipotent God. As a matter of fact, not guys like him, he himself has inspired me to think.

So when I do think and do look, and do analyze the evidence, I, like himself am capable of seeing "gaps" if you will. We both are in agreement that there are multiple means by which these gaps may have occurred. So my analytical mind challenges things that others just assume in blindness or explain away. Yet I believe my faith need not be abandoned.

I believe our vast difference is that I embrace what I do know and accept by faith what I cannot understand. Where as someone like himself just rejects the entire package. Which is by no means a slight of him or anyone else.

I believe that myself and others would more literally be categorized as Christian Apologists.

So, in essence I am grateful for Matt, and I do mean it sincerely. As I know him and others like him to be very intelligent and quite nice guys to match. Great people to know and befriend.

What concerns me though, is far too often, young and old Christians alike, toss out their own apologist theories and perpetuate perversions of the data we call the word or scripture. They state things that not only are interpretations of their own making but the data or the word actually never ever states any such thing at all.

God gave me a great mind and a great heart and in between there is a great faith. I would also prefer to not be ignorant and or intolerant.

Thanks guys!

 

[Nightwanderer]

What concerns me though, is far too often, young and old Christians alike, toss out their own apologist theories and perpetuate perversions of the data we call the word or scripture. They state things that not only are interpretations of their own making but the data or the word actually never ever states any such thing at all.

God gave me a great mind and a great heart and in between there is a great faith. I would also prefer to not be ignorant and or intolerant.

I hope you're able to influence more christians (or fundamentalists of any faith really) towards your way of thinking in this regard, it's refreshing to see really, and would go a long way in alleviating a lot of pointless adversity.

 

[dkkon1]

Well, as you guys know, I keep no secret that I am a Christian. But I will be quite candid with you, someone like dsade, does have some grounds for his lack of embracing the gospel and the concept of an omnipotent God. As a matter of fact, not guys like him, he himself has inspired me to think.

So when I do think and do look, and do analyze the evidence, I, like himself am capable of seeing "gaps" if you will. We both are in agreement that there are multiple means by which these gaps may have occurred. So my analytical mind challenges things that others just assume in blindness or explain away. Yet I believe my faith need not be abandoned.

I believe our vast difference is that I embrace what I do know and accept by faith what I cannot understand. Where as someone like himself just rejects the entire package. Which is by no means a slight of him or anyone else.

I believe that myself and others would more literally be categorized as Christian Apologists.

So, in essence I am grateful for Matt, and I do mean it sincerely. As I know him and others like him to be very intelligent and quite nice guys to match. Great people to know and befriend.

What concerns me though, is far too often, young and old Christians alike, toss out their own apologist theories and perpetuate perversions of the data we call the word or scripture. They state things that not only are interpretations of their own making but the data or the word actually never ever states any such thing at all.

God gave me a great mind and a great heart and in between there is a great faith. I would also prefer to not be ignorant and or intolerant.

Thanks guys!

Another great post man! I think that i'd agree with that, and would second you sentiment that part of the wonder of this life is learning more and more about our faith and the world around us. I find it sad that many Christians abandon this quest for knowledge and consider it a waste of time (I know many who have). By the way B5150 what is your summarized consensus on this? Keep up the good posts!

 

[DmitryWI]

If everyone would think and treat their believes like B5150, this world would be a much better place to live.

 

[DmitryWI]

Regarding time. Let's look at it this way. Christians believe that God has a plan for everyone and what's going to happen to you tomorrow or in a year is not a random thing. Right? So if you think God lives in time just like human beings, then how is it possible for Him to create things in life for you?

 

[Ribo68]

My only contribution to this thread, to remain respectful to the OPs thread guidelines...

For the above, you don't have to limit anything, however if there are factors that exist above and beyond that would "make sense" and if such a being failed to create us able to grasp it, then some kind of punishment sentence cannot apply to us for NOT believing or having faith - especially where the only information comes from a book, second, third, 1000th hand reports of something that happened..,maybe - in a method of "knowledge" that is not even allowed in a civiized court system.

To base an eternal punishment on success or failure to fully embrace a rather hard-to-believe viewpoint, one must have all pertinent info as well as the complete set of faculties necessary to conclude. Considering that the descriptive of "omnipotent" was brought in, this should have been fully within his power.

The "punishment sentence" does not come from not having a living faith in Christ. It comes from being guilty of sin. All have sinned, therefore all are guilty before God. The wages of sin is death. It is the goodness of God that calls men to repentence. He has set before us a choice this very day, life and/or death. He also gives a hint for those of us who are a little slower. Choose life. When one has lived a sinless life, then one is not guilty before God and would not need saving. Less than a 100% on that test is a failing grade. And I for one failed it miserably. So please, choose life.

 

[dsade]

The "punishment sentence" does not come from not having a living faith in Christ. It comes from being guilty of sin. All have sinned, therefore all are guilty before God. The wages of sin is death. It is the goodness of God that calls men to repentence. He has set before us a choice this very day, life and/or death. He also gives a hint for those of us who are a little slower. Choose life. When one has lived a sinless life, then one is not guilty before God and would not need saving. Less than a 100% on that test is a failing grade. And I for one failed it miserably. So please, choose life.

I am not going to turn this into an argument thread, per Brian's wishes, but nowhere in my post did I mention christ. You use, in your premise, the existence of god when that very existence is the unproven lynchpin. There is a morality based on secular views, and morality itself SURE didn't start with the bible, but some things considered a sin by the bible obviously would not be otherwise (recognizing sabbath, etc.) while things VERY MUCH considered disgusting "sins" (such as slavery) are certainly not prohibited by the bible, even by default embraced.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

My only contribution to this thread, to remain respectful to the OPs thread guidelines...

For the above, you don't have to limit anything, however if there are factors that exist above and beyond that would "make sense" and if such a being failed to create us able to grasp it, then some kind of punishment sentence cannot apply to us for NOT believing or having faith - especially where the only information comes from a book, second, third, 1000th hand reports of something that happened..,maybe - in a method of "knowledge" that is not even allowed in a civiized court system.

To base an eternal punishment on success or failure to fully embrace a rather hard-to-believe viewpoint, one must have all pertinent info as well as the complete set of faculties necessary to conclude. Considering that the descriptive of "omnipotent" was brought in, this should have been fully within his power.

This is a very very well thought out point. And has got me thinking...

 

[B5150]

We live in a world that is going to hell, figuratively, and very well maybe literally. Does a world going to hell need to be told it is going to hell?

You are in a boat out at sea. You are far enough out there that there is no sign of land. You come upon a man treading water. There is no other boat in sight. You know he will only be able to tread water for so long before, either he may eaten by a shark, or drown from exhaustion.

Shall I ask him how he got to be in this predicament? Shall I ask him how long he has been out here? Shall I tell him how foolish it is for him to be out here for there are sharks in the water? Shall I inform him that he is too far from land to swim to his own rescue and inform him he will likely drown before doing so?

Even in the event that we introduce Christ into the discussion here are Christ's words:

Matthew 28:19 (NIV)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,

Mark 16:15 (NIV)
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Luke 24:45-48 (NIV)
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.

John 21:15-17 (NIV)
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."

Consider that Christ came to the Jew first and then the gentiles. Consider that hell fire and brimstone is Jewish Old Testament Law. Consider that the Jew may get saved but still have the mind of a Jew. Consider Christ suggested to not think like the Jews did. Consider that Christ was the New Testament. The new Covenant. Consider that Christ changed everything!

make disciples, preach the good news, opened their minds so they could understand, repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name, "Feed my lambs.", "Take care of my sheep.", "Feed my sheep."

 

[dsade]

glad to see you lin out to the jordan article in your sig, B....everyone be sure to go and read it.

 

[b unit]

We live in a world that is going to hell, figuratively, and very well maybe literally. Does a world going to hell need to be told it is going to hell?

B, have you seen the following documentaires?

The Moses Code (2008)
Thirty-five hundred years ago, God gave Moses a gift that changed the future of humanity. Some of the most incredible miracles in history came from applying a simple code, activating the power of the creative force of God in the world. This ancient technology has largely been lost or ignored since then, only to be revealed once again through this movie (as well as James Twymans book of the same name).

The Antichrist (2008)
How would you recognize the most evil person on Earth? According to many historical texts, you should look for a brilliant, enigmatic public figure who transforms the world for good, for a while. Basically, the last person you’d tap as Satan’s human emiss

They both can be watched online if you want a link to them.

I'm about to watch them myself.

cheers
little b

 

[DmitryWI]

I've seen "The Moses Code" and I think this is pretty good movie for everyone to watch. Would you PM me a link to Antichrist movie? Thanks, B Unit.

 

[B5150]

I want to give an illustration and then make a point and then be done. I may have more to write one day but for now I will have said enough.

I am in a position of influence just merely by being a moderator. I have a shitty job to do sometimes. Lots of times people mistake my motives and intentions because I have a job to do that sometimes hurts people. They get banned, infractions, etc. This can come off to some as being very vengeful, spiteful or power hungry.

This same impression can get perpetuated on other boards. There is a board I still frequent that was my home board before joining AM. They operate on a different culture and set of rules. They see me even worse there and have been very hurtful at times. This gets directed at me, the AM owner, and even the AM membership.

Now those of you here who really know me, may know me for my good intentions, for my good motives and my good work at keeping a community from going to hell. Even some over at the other place do as well.

Now I am not looking to suggest anything about any place else. But what I am suggesting is that there is a story being told about me elsewhere by people who do not even know me in the first person. Then they go on to tell it to someone else in the second person. Then that person goes on to hear it and tell it over again.

This happens in a different culture, a different time, and a different governing body. It might as well be a different language as well.

If some of you who know my heart were to hear some of the stuff that is said about me, this ownership or yourselves you would be furious. The first thing you would likely say is that they "do not even know him". If they really knew him they would know "that is not what he meant" or "where his heart was at" when I was simply doing my job. You could possibly say to them "If you met and knew the B5150 that I met" you might know him to be a whole lot different than the one you think you met.

Now as you can see I am making an illustration and it does have a point. After some of you met me you got to know me. Once you got to know me you got to understand me. Once you got to understand me you got to better see what I was doing and what my intentions are.

Now suppose that this is not B5150, but suppose that this is Jesus - God.

What most everyone knows about Jesus they might have read in the Bible. A book that is only plain text. It is written by men who told a story that they did not even see first hand themselves in most cases. It has been translated many times over by many cultures and generations and governing bodies. (Please note: I am not defrauding the Holy Spirit inspired word of God written by man contained in the Bible)

When I think of Jesus and the man and the God I met when I met Him I think of the Jesus who showed me a God who was intimately acquainted with my pain, my suffering and my sorrow. I met a God who came to me with His arms wide open, calling me, accepting me and embracing me completely, right where I was, the very way I was.

The Jesus - God - I met did not shame me into loving Him. He did not threaten me with eternal damnation.

Matthew 11:25-30

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.""

I would challenge those who met Jesus in their hearts and life to consider the kind of Jesus they met. The God they met. The kind of God they tell people about. Is it the Jesus that delivered you from drugs and alcohol? Is it the Jesus that delivered you from pornography and adultery? Is it the Jesus that affirmed you, accepted you and acknowledged you despite the rejection and abandonment by man, your fathers, your mothers, your social peers? Is it the Jesus that delivered you from shame and guilt and regret?

Is it the Jesus that you read about later in the Bible? Is it the Jesus written in a book?

Which Jesus did you meet? Which Jesus embraced you? Which Jesus do you want people to embrace? Which Jesus does Jesus want you to show and teach people?


Matthew 28:19

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations"

Make - To bring into existence by shaping or changing.
Disciples - One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.

Who is the Jesus that I am showing people? Who is the God I am telling people about?

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

You are in a boat out at sea. You are far enough out there that there is no sign of land. You come upon a man treading water. There is no other boat in sight. You know he will only be able to tread water for so long before, either he may eaten by a shark, or drown from exhaustion.

Shall I ask him how he got to be in this predicament? Shall I ask him how long he has been out here? Shall I tell him how foolish it is for him to be out here for there are sharks in the water? Shall I inform him that he is too far from land to swim to his own rescue and inform him he will likely drown before doing so?

Now, what if you are hungry and think about eating that person?

:lol:

 

[dkkon1]

B5150: That was probably the best, and most sincere post i've ever read. Thanks for sharing.