Dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden...

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
    I read quite well thank you. This statement from your treatice refutes your assertion that, and I quote ""religion" had nothing to do with it". I quote you again, "Christ is the only god of any religion that actually died and rose again! The resurrection is the cornerstone of the Christian faith and what really separates Christianity from the rest." It appears that Christianity has everything to do with your position. I quote this additional statement as further evidence, since you felt the need to exclude a differing "creation" story: "Really, it seems like a no-brainer and there are no other satisfactory explanations that match the known facts and laws, unless you believe the Norse legend of creation which involves a hungry giant and a big cow and lots of fire and some other weird stuff like that. (lol)"

    I will anticipate your response and preempt with my statement that Christianity is fine and dandy and I applaud your faith, but don't say your position has nothing to do with religion when it clearly does as evidenced by your own words quoted above. It undermines your credibility.


    I stand by my assertion that "intelligent design" if you will, IS NOT A TESTABLE SCIENTIFIC THEORY. You are free to believe it or not. My discussion has nothing to do with that. It simply does not meet scientific muster. You can quote as many branches of science as you wish, but you offered ZERO data to support any scientific conclusion in your treatice. Statements such as the following quotations from your article are not evidence. In fact, they appear to me to be questions, not answers:

    "How else can you explain order and design?"
    "How then does life develop and thrive when the whole universe is in a state of decay?"
    "Would you really gamble on odds like that?"

    If you are a scientist as you claim, I am at a loss to understand how the preceeding statements would pass muster of any sort in your field of scientific endeavor.
    I am trying to speak to the laymen friend, not formally address a room of my peers. I gave only a brief overview that was designed not to spoon feed a man like the church might but stimulate general interest that you could elaborate on yourself if it interested you. If you have a need for truth, you will investigate the claims. Otherwise, just dismiss them and I am sorry if I wasted your time or offended you.

    And yes, I used the word religion in the article but your missing my point. I am not pushing a specific agenda or church or asking for money or giving you some funky doctrine to follow! Maybe I was too vague when I said 'religion' and just assumed we were on the same wave. Again, I am not here to offend, convert or whatever. Just being sincere and honest about a few truths I found that I shared for no other reason but that.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    "Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero (Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276; Tryon 1973)."
    Interestingly, that same force (gravitation) is so fine tuned to support life that if you stretched a ruler along the entire length of the universe (at least 15 billion light years) and pick one spot on that spectrum where gravitation would have to be dialed to support life, if you moved that spot over an inch in either direction life could not exist. The universe is that fine tuned. The odds are 1 in ten thousand billion billion. Consider the Cosmological Constant, same thing (much higher odds actually) so now all these dials are perfectly tuned for life not just separately but in coordination with each other! Coincidence? The man that thinks so has a far greater faith that I, I am a scientist. I'll go with the blatantly better odds! Is see design, no doubt.
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  3. What it really boils down to is that evolution does nothing but provide excuses. People use these excuses to deny the existence of a creator. By denying the existence of a creator it enables the person to justify themselves doing things that would be considered by a Bible believing Christian to be sin. With no absolute authority there is no justification for conscience. No one can prove that the fossils that have been dug up by scientists over the years are for sure from millions of years ago as they claim. They use what is called carbon dating which uses the carbon decay of fossils assumed to be of a certain age to compare with the fossil decay of other items they wish to date. What you have to ask yourself is this: Do I want to take a chance with where I will spend eternity based on a Hypothesis? Yes, I did say hypothesis. A theory is defined as: A comprehensive explanation of a given set of data that has been repeatedly confirmed by observation and experimentation and has gained general acceptance within the scientific community but has not yet been decisively proven. Evolution has not been observed and therefore cannot be classified as a theory.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Interestingly, that same force (gravitation) is so fine tuned to support life that if you stretched a ruler along the entire length of the universe (at least 15 billion light years) and pick one spot on that spectrum where gravitation would have to be dialed to support life, if you moved that spot over an inch in either direction life could not exist. The universe is that fine tuned. The odds are 1 in ten thousand billion billion. Consider the Cosmological Constant, same thing (much higher odds actually) so now all these dials are perfectly tuned for life not just separately but in coordination with each other! Coincidence? The man that thinks so has a far greater faith that I, I am a scientist. I'll go with the blatantly better odds! Is see design, no doubt.
    After this I have to go night-night...

    The cosmos is fine-tuned to permit human life. If any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, life would be impossible. (This claim is also known as the weak anthropic principle.)

    "The claim assumes life in its present form is a given; it applies not to life but to life only as we know it. The same outcome results if life is fine-tuned to the cosmos.

    We do not know what fundamental conditions would rule out any possibility of any life. For all we know, there might be intelligent beings in another universe arguing that if fundamental constants were only slightly different, then the absence of free quarks and the extreme weakness of gravity would make life impossible.

    Indeed, many examples of fine-tuning are evidence that life is fine-tuned to the cosmos, not vice versa. This is exactly what evolution proposes.


    If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it?


    Many fine-tuning claims are based on numbers being the "same order of magnitude," but this phrase gets stretched beyond its original meaning to buttress design arguments; sometimes numbers more than one-thousandfold different are called the same order of magnitude (Klee 2002).

    How fine is "fine" anyway? That question can only be answered by a human judgment call, which reduces or removes objective value from the anthropic principle argument.


    The fine-tuning claim is weakened by the fact that some physical constants are dependent on others, so the anthropic principle may rest on only a very few initial conditions that are really fundamental (Kane et al. 2000). It is further weakened by the fact that different initial conditions sometimes lead to essentially the same outcomes, as with the initial mass of stars and their formation of heavy metals (Nakamura et al. 1997), or that the tuning may not be very fine, as with the resonance window for helium fusion within the sun (Livio et al. 1989). For all we know, a universe substantially different from ours may be improbable or even impossible.


    If part of the universe were not suitable for life, we would not be here to think about it. There is nothing to rule out the possibility of multiple universes, most of which would be unsuitable for life. We happen to find ourselves in one where life is conveniently possible because we cannot very well be anywhere else.


    Intelligent design is not a logical conclusion of fine tuning. Fine tuning says nothing about motives or methods, which is how design is defined. (The scarcity of life and multi-billion-year delay in it appearing argue against life being a motive.) Fine-tuning, if it exists, may result from other causes, as yet unknown, or for no reason at all (Drange 2000).


    In fact, the anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, he could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it. "

  5. Quote Originally Posted by brywal312 View Post
    What it really boils down to is that evolution does nothing but provide excuses. People use these excuses to deny the existence of a creator. By denying the existence of a creator it enables the person to justify themselves doing things that would be considered by a Bible believing Christian to be sin. With no absolute authority there is no justification for conscience. No one can prove that the fossils that have been dug up by scientists over the years are for sure from millions of years ago as they claim. They use what is called carbon dating which uses the carbon decay of fossils assumed to be of a certain age to compare with the fossil decay of other items they wish to date. What you have to ask yourself is this: Do I want to take a chance with where I will spend eternity based on a Hypothesis? Yes, I did say hypothesis. A theory is defined as: A comprehensive explanation of a given set of data that has been repeatedly confirmed by observation and experimentation and has gained general acceptance within the scientific community but has not yet been decisively proven. Evolution has not been observed and therefore cannot be classified as a theory.
    Ugh...can't go to bed yet...

    1."By denying the existence of a creator it enables the person to justify themselves doing things that would be considered by a Bible believing Christian to be sin. With no absolute authority there is no justification for conscience.

    Umm...I don't believe in a creator and I'm not going around killing people...People have a conscience regardless of whether or not they believe in a god.

    2. There are many different ways of dating fossils, etc and they all come up with the same dates.


    3. "The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). "

    "Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming. "
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    In fact, the anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, he could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it. "
    If God created life in a universe whose conditions did not allow for it then that would not require any faith to believe in creation. Creation vs evolution is an unstoppable force hitting an immovable object. If an evolutionist denies the existence of a creator completely then he leaves no room to be convinced otherwise because by rejecting the existence of a creator then he is directly denying the validity of the Bible. Likewise if a Christian is completely convinced of the existence of a creator there is no way he can be convinced otherwise because in order to accept evolution you MUST deny the existence of God because you must deny the validity of the Bible. IMO there is no way that any book can be written that explains every question man has down to the finest detail like the Bible does.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post

    Umm...I don't believe in a creator and I'm not going around killing people...People have a conscience regardless of whether or not they believe in a god.
    Explain how you evolved this conscience.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    ... If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it? ...
    Ah, the dreaded Goldie Lox argument!

    The only reason man notices the fine tuning is because he is here to observe it. If it were any other way, life would not have developed and thus man would not even be here to ask why.

    You are correct, maybe we observe order only because we exist in a universe with favorable conditions that foster it, but it still does not offer the imperative for it's existence in the first place. What was the initiative? If it had a start, it had a cause. If there is no beginning or end, a creator is not needed, but entropy shows that we are not in a static condition. It seems you are squirming to deny God in the face of clear support. Do not let it be for moral reasons. Don't deny God and make excuses because you reject his system. He has rules and protocols for you sure, but they with your best interests at heart obviously. How can you argue that you know what you need better than the one who made you? It's ludicrous. He is not what you have been led to believe I can assure you so please stop thinking 'restrictions' automatically. Just the opposite, God seeks to liberate. He is the ultimate liberal when you look at the whole universe and realize the Bible says he placed earth at the center and favored us alone. The rest is only designed to display his glory! That blows my mind.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Interestingly, that same force (gravitation) is so fine tuned to support life that if you stretched a ruler along the entire length of the universe (at least 15 billion light years) and pick one spot on that spectrum where gravitation would have to be dialed to support life, if you moved that spot over an inch in either direction life could not exist. The universe is that fine tuned. The odds are 1 in ten thousand billion billion. Consider the Cosmological Constant, same thing (much higher odds actually) so now all these dials are perfectly tuned for life not just separately but in coordination with each other! Coincidence? The man that thinks so has a far greater faith that I, I am a scientist. I'll go with the blatantly better odds! Is see design, no doubt.
    if you believe the universe is either ageless, eternal, or constant than it doesnt matter how small the odds are...it is guaranteed to happen at some point.

    if the universe does in fact have a life span, dies, and then recreates itself, than the above statement still holds true.

  10. just throwing it out there, is it possible there is an explanation for the unexplained besides just saying "god".

  11. I think this thread has deviated too far from the original topic; did Dinosaurs exist alongside man? One of the more interesting topics to be delved into is that of the "Thunderbird", which is sometimes described as being a giant, but typical looking bird, and other times described as distinctly reptilian.

    The info is out there for the open mind, waiting to be discovered.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Dagron View Post
    I think this thread has deviated too far from the original topic; did Dinosaurs exist alongside man? One of the more interesting topics to be delved into is that of the "Thunderbird", which is sometimes described as being a giant, but typical looking bird, and other times described as distinctly reptilian.

    The info is out there for the open mind, waiting to be discovered.
    Yes, they did walk together. In fact, there may even be a few dinosaurs alive today! I have seen photos of pre-historic species caught in fishing nets and reports of 'great lizards' seen in the rain forests. Who knows, but the fossil record clearly shows that the dinosaurs were gone for all practical purposes by the time man hit the scenes.

    If you guys want a black and white answer, you are not going to get it that easily. Welcome to the grey world of REALITY. Deal with it.

  13. I'll never enter this argument. Why? Both sides are trying to prove the unprovable. Both pick what makes more sense to them, and this is largely based on what their parents taught them, what their professor said, or even more straight forward, whether they are religious or not.

    We don't know ****. I believe there may be plenty of things out there, a whole different dimension, that science can't fathom, and so is ignored by science as old wives tales, fiction, and so on. I think we all will have our minds blown someday; clearly both sides are missing huge pieces of the puzzle, and the truth lies somewhere in between. Until then...

  14. Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    yes....i believe people that believe dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time are idiots...

    you dont?
    I've actually seen a few documentaries recently about this very issue.

    I'm not saying I believe it, but I won't say with 100% certainty that this is false.

  15. Just found this gem on the Museum:

    "Over 800 scientists in the three states surrounding the museum -- Kentucky, Indiana, and Ohio -- have signed a statement sponsored by NCSE reading, "We, the undersigned scientists at universities and colleges in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana, are concerned about scientifically inaccurate materials at the Answers in Genesis museum. Students who accept this material as scientifically valid are unlikely to succeed in science courses at the college level. These students will need remedial instruction in the nature of science, as well as in the specific areas of science misrepresented by Answers in Genesis."

    Good museum!

  16. Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    Just found this gem on the Museum:

    "Over 800 scientists in the three states surrounding the museum -- Kentucky, Indiana, and Ohio -- have signed a statement sponsored by NCSE reading, "We, the undersigned scientists at universities and colleges in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana, are concerned about scientifically inaccurate materials at the Answers in Genesis museum. Students who accept this material as scientifically valid are unlikely to succeed in science courses at the college level. These students will need remedial instruction in the nature of science, as well as in the specific areas of science misrepresented by Answers in Genesis."

    Good museum!
    How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

    -Abraham Lincoln
  17. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUNCH View Post
    Thought this would be interesting with all the religious discussions going on lately.
    I don't recall seeing much discussion of religion as of late. There has been an increase in witness, testimony, support and affirmation of faith(s) and of each other in several threads.

    I am curious though.

    Do you have a personal issue or have you had an event that has challenged your belief system or the faith you may or may not have?

    Do you have a desire to find out what everyone else thinks before you make a decision of your own on the matter of your faith?

    You have succeeded in sparking up the debate. But I wonder if you had an other motive behind your inquiry. After all you have not contributed anything other than generating the debate.
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  18. wow this thread got kinda heated. everyone should just worry about what they believe in and not give the guy next to him $hit for not agreeing.
    in the end we will die alone and either go to Heaven or just cease to be. but life is toooooo short to fight about weather there is a God or where we came from.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Chad View Post
    wow this thread got kinda heated. everyone should just worry about what they believe in and not give the guy next to him $hit for not agreeing.
    in the end we will die alone and either go to Heaven or just cease to be. but life is toooooo short to fight about weather there is a God or where we came from.
    HEY! Back off man!! j/k

    Let me show you the real danger of choosing the wrong religion...

    Comedy Central : Motherload
    Last edited by DR.D; 06-05-2007 at 02:29 AM.
  20. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad View Post
    in the end we will die alone and either go to Heaven or just cease to be.
    "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist."
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    I don't recall seeing much discussion of religion as of late. There has been an increase in witness, testimony, support and affirmation of faith(s) and of each other in several threads.

    I am curious though.

    Do you have a personal issue or have you had an event that has challenged your belief system or the faith you may or may not have?

    Do you have a desire to find out what everyone else thinks before you make a decision of your own on the matter of your faith?

    You have succeeded in sparking up the debate. But I wonder if you had an other motive behind your inquiry. After all you have not contributed anything other than generating the debate.
    I haven't been in because I was out of town all weekend. I got to read about half of these posts last night and the rest this morning. Sorry if you thought I was stirring the pot in a negative way. Actually I am stirring the pot, but in a positive way. For my own knowledge and understanding. Right now I tend to believe in evolution and not in a god of any type or the bible for that matter. But listening to people like Dr D does make me think a little about everything.

    I have a personal issue but no events per-se have taken place. I have been on the fence about religion for my entire life. The scientific side to me doesn't want to believe many of the things the bible says, yet it's hard to ignore the possibility of something or someone having a hand at the creation of what's around us. Maybe a "god" or possibly some type of force.

    I'm not basing what everyone else thinks on what I believe, just looking for more things to consider. Things I haven't thought about.

    Again, I do not have any sinister motive for bringing this debate up. I don't even like to think of it as a debate, but more of a discussion. I hope things do remain civil.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by CRUNCH View Post
    ... Again, I do not have any sinister motive for bringing this debate up. I don't even like to think of it as a debate, but more of a discussion. I hope things do remain civil.
    I know know it bro. We've been friends a long time man and I know your heart. I'm glad you're thinking though. Nothing wrong with thinking! (lol) This whole world could use a bit more thinkers.
  23. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUNCH View Post
    Sorry if you thought I was stirring the pot in a negative way. Actually I am stirring the pot, but in a positive way.
    I meant neither...but stirring does causes turbulance
    I have a personal issue but no events per-se have taken place. I have been on the fence about religion for my entire life.
    The thing about God (consider He does exist) is that it is a relationship with your creator. Religion, religiousness and religious people do not necessarily have a personal and intimate relationship with God. They have religion and all of it nonsense. I religiously smoked pot for 20+ years. I would not necessarily call that a edifying relationship. I'm sure you follow my metaphor.
    The scientific side to me doesn't want to believe many of the things the bible says, yet it's hard to ignore the possibility of something or someone having a hand at the creation of what's around us. Maybe a "god" or possibly some type of force.
    In here lies the challenge really, and you are not alone. I as a Christian sometimes let me head start leading me and forget to walk in faith: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    I'm not basing what everyone else thinks on what I believe, just looking for more things to consider. Things I haven't thought about.
    There is no harm in curiosity.
    Again, I do not have any sinister motive for bringing this debate up. I don't even like to think of it as a debate, but more of a discussion. I hope things do remain civil.
    Never thought you had sinister motives. Discussion is good. Civility in the discussions sometimes is absent.

    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.
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