abortion vs car manslaughter

[spatch]

No, this isnt a thread to bash abortionist like I did before. I've now come to realize that God is powerful enough to be the judge, jury, and exocutioner, so I dont need to concern myself with that anymore.


Anyways. My uncles friend who lives in, I want to say Maine, recently killed a pregnant woman when he was driving drunk and crashed her car. Hes getting 2 charges against him for manslaughter (sp?) becuase she was pregnant.


My question... If she can have an abortion because the fetus isnt life, why is he being charged with taking the life of something that "isnt alive"?


PS- dont kill my thread with junk that will get it closed or I will neg rep you :hammer:

 

[Alexander]

Come on man. Do you think that I could choose to give a random stranger an abortion. Think about it, its the pregnant womans choice only. Quit thinking about abortion so much. By the way some situations absolutely warrant an abortion(rape). Abortion is'nt wrong, the way some people abuse it is!

 

[spatch]

Come on man. Do you think that I could choose to give a random stranger an abortion. Think about it, its the pregnant womans choice only. Quit thinking about abortion so much. By the way some situations absolutely warrant an abortion(rape). Abortion is'nt wrong, the way some people abuse it is!

This thread is just an observation I had, and it would interesting to see how it turns out if someone actually used this for a defence one day. I do believe he should be punished for killing the baby. No need to take it personal.

 

[diminuendo]

Well the Bible says that the drunk woman owes the dead womans husband 4 sheckles of silver. It is not a crime according to your Bible, at least not the bit about accidently killing the fetus (or embryo, I am not familiar with its particular stage of development).

I have the solution to your abortion dillema spatch, don't get one.

 

[MarcusG]

In the Lacy Peterson case, Cali law treats killing unborn fetus as murder even though abortion is legal by state law in Cali.

 

[spatch]

Well the Bible says that the drunk woman owes the dead womans husband 4 sheckles of silver. It is not a crime according to your Bible, at least not the bit about accidently killing the fetus (or embryo, I am not familiar with its particular stage of development).

I have the solution to your abortion dillema spatch, don't get one.

I dont have an abortion dillema. Did my first post in this thread not establish this? I just thought this would be in interesting defence for this dude.

 

[Alexander]

I dont have an abortion dillema. Did my first post in this thread not establish this? I just thought this would be in interesting defence for this dude.

I thought my first post would make you understand how ridiculous your train of thought is. It is the pregnant womans choice ONLY to get an abortion. No one else can decide to give her an abortion against her will. With your train of thought I could knee a pregnant woman in the stomach, kill her baby, and not go to jail for it. I'm not taking it personal either, I just wanted to make you understand that it is proposterous.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

I thought my first post would make you understand how ridiculous your train of thought is. It is the pregnant womans choice ONLY to get an abortion. No one else can decide to give her an abortion against her will. With your train of thought I could knee a pregnant woman in the stomach, kill her baby, and not go to jail for it. I'm not taking it personal either, I just wanted to make you understand that it is proposterous.

I dont think you get it....
He is trying to use precident to his advantage.
If you can charge this man with two counts of man slaughter then abortion has to be illegal in ALL cases PERIOD.

That's great if a mom decided that she wants an abortion... She should have the right to be free in this country. I just think we should consult the baby she is going to murder first and see how it feels about the whole thing.

 

[spatch]

I dont think you get it....
He is trying to use precident to his advantage.
If you can charge this man with two counts of man slaughter then abortion has to be illegal in ALL cases PERIOD.

That's great if a mom decided that she wants an abortion... She should have the right to be free in this country. I just think we should consult the baby she is going to murder first and see how it feel about the whole thing.

Several points

1) thank you. You are the first one to kind of get my point of view

2) this isnt a free country. Its the freeIST, but not 100% free.

3) Thanks again. Finally someone took a step back and looked at my point of view.

4) Maybe im the next johnny cockron :icon_lol:

 

[jonny21]

I dont think you get it....
He is trying to use precident to his advantage.
If you can charge this man with two counts of man slaughter then abortion has to be illegal in ALL cases PERIOD.

The driver had taken away the any chance for a choice in the matter.

If the mother had been on the way to an abortion clinic to have an abortion maybe that would be a different story.

No, I don't think you are the next Jonny Cochrane. Just another self righteous human being like most of us.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

The driver had taken away the any chance for a choice in the matter.

If the mother had been on the way to an abortion clinic to have an abortion maybe that would be a different story.

No, I don't think you are the next Jonny Cochrane. Just another self righteous human being like most of us.

It is irrelevant how the child died.

Its not the mothers choice nor is it the drivers. But that is not what is up for debate here. If the mom can legally kill the baby without its concent then so can a drunk driver.

They must overturn the abortion case or charge the driver with one count of manslaughter.... no and's, if's, or but's

__ and i really enjoys spatches threads.... keep it up man :thumbsup:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Come on man. Do you think that I could choose to give a random stranger an abortion. Think about it, its the pregnant womans choice only. Quit thinking about abortion so much. By the way some situations absolutely warrant an abortion(rape). Abortion is'nt wrong, the way some people abuse it is!

You're obviously not getting it.

He is charged for killing a living being in the case of the drunked accident, but when the women gets an abortion, its NOT defined as a living thing.

That's what he's bringing up...the two different standards.

On top of that, abortion is not necessarily a choice a mother "should" have once the baby is technically living. because, there is no difference in a drunk man and a mother killing the baby. Its was killed without its consent. After 4 months or so, baby's are what "I" would determine "living", but its that very definition that is being debated right now.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

I agree with you 150% on post #3 in your other thread spatch.

 

[jonny21]

It is irrelevant how the child died.

Its not the mothers choice nor is it the drivers. But that is not what is up for debate here. If the mom can legally kill the baby without its concent then so can a drunk driver.

They must overturn the abortion case or charge the driver with one count of manslaughter.... no and's, if's, or but's

In this country it is the mother's right to have an abortion. Only she and she alone has the right to end the life within her, legally.

Here is another slant on it. Parents have a child on life support. No chance of survival. They choose to pull the plug and the child dies, legal. Same child on life support, janitor decides the child won't live and he pulls the plug, illegal.

 

[Alexander]

I dont think you get it....
He is trying to use precident to his advantage.
If you can charge this man with two counts of man slaughter then abortion has to be illegal in ALL cases PERIOD.

That's great if a mom decided that she wants an abortion... She should have the right to be free in this country. I just think we should consult the baby she is going to murder first and see how it feel about the whole thing.

I will not dignify this post with a response, well at least not much of one. Seriously think about what your saying for 1 minute!

 

[kwyckemynd00]

That's not a very good argument, alexander.

Honestly, after a few months a baby can feel, dream, and to a lesser degree, think. Just because the baby comes out of the uterus and starts to breath doesn't mean its any more alive than it was 5 minutes before it came out, etc.

Technically, abortion is taking anothers life without their consent--hell, you can't even take anothers life WITH their consent.

IMHO, abortion should be legal, but only when the child is too undeveloped to feel, think, dream, etc and in a situation where the mothers life is in danger. And, in a few select cases, when all proper precautions were taken (birth control, etc) and the mother stil gets pregnant when the parents were planning, respsonsibly against it. In other words, you would need a damn good excuse to have an abortion after the first few months.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

This isn't a moral debate here. It is technicality in the law.
And I am thinking

I assume someone close to you had an abortion so you have emotions tied to the issue that are affecting your logic.

 

[Alexander]

You're obviously not getting it.

He is charged for killing a living being in the case of the drunked accident, but when the women gets an abortion, its NOT defined as a living thing.

That's what he's bringing up...the two different standards.

On top of that, abortion is not necessarily a choice a mother "should" have once the baby is technically living. because, there is no difference in a drunk man and a mother killing the baby. Its was killed without its consent. After 4 months or so, baby's are what "I" would determine "living", but its that very definition that is being debated right now.

I'm not getting it huh? O.K. so you're saying a stranger should have as much right to give a woman an abortion as the woman herself? WOW! Please answer my question.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

I'm not getting it huh? O.K. so you're saying a stranger should have as much right to give a woman an abortion as the woman herself? WOW! Please answer my question.

I say the stranger has as much say as the mother.

Who care's what the relation is. Someone decided to kill someone without their concent.

And dont tell me that the baby cant remember so it doesn't count. Do you remember things from the hospital after you where born? How bout when you where one year old?.....no you dont. Should your mother have "the right" to kill you then?...um no.

Also dont tell me that if the child can't live outside the womb then abortion should be allowed. Have you ever heard of an abandoned newborn staying alive when its parents abandoned it?.... the argument that it cant sustain life so its okay to murder it would mean that murder would be okay until a child was about four or so years old.

 

[jonny21]

I say the stranger has as much say as the mother.

Who care's what the relation is. Someone decided to kill someone without their concent.

And dont tell me that the baby cant remember so it doesn't count. Do you remember things from the hospital after you where born? How bout when you where one year old?.....no you dont. Should your mother have "the right" to kill you then?...um no.

"Should" and "what is" are two completely different things.

Go read my above post and you tell me what you think.

 

[spatch]

I'm not getting it huh? O.K. so you're saying a stranger should have as much right to give a woman an abortion as the woman herself? WOW! Please answer my question.

If my mom were to kill me RIGHT NOW she would get the same punishment as if my neighbor did.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

In this country it is the mother's right to have an abortion. Only she and she alone has the right to end the life within her, legally.

The mother isn't the only party involved. What you said is the equivalent of someone being convicted of a capitol offense while not in the courtroom.
(actually its not the equivalent...its worse)

 

[Whiskey Steve]

If my mom were to kill me RIGHT NOW she would get the same punishment as if my neighbor did.

:goodpost:

 

[spatch]

To find the answer to this thread we need to answer the following...

Is the potentional for life, actually life?

If its not, then abortion should be 100% legal, and this man shouldn't be charged for killing the child, because he didnt remove life from anything, therefor there is no murder.

If it is, abortion should be illigal because it removes life where live was present, and this man should be charged with murder.

 

[jonny21]

The mother isn't the only party involved. What you said is the equivalent of someone being convicted of a capitol offense while not in the courtroom.
(actually its not the equivalent...its worse)

:blink:

 

[spatch]

Jonny21, For your above post...

Hes saying the baby being killed before it is born is like you being tried for a crime with out a court date.

 

[spatch]

No, I don't think you are the next Jonny Cochrane. Just another self righteous human being like most of us.

Well no one thought Ronnie was the next Arnold either, ya crazy bafoon :rofl:

 

[jonny21]

Jonny21, For your above post...

Hes saying the baby being killed before it is born is like you being tried for a crime with out a court date.

It's just not a relevant point considering my post. Weren't we were talking legal issue here? It seems it has grown into a moral/religious issue, as it usually does.

The term "should" in your response just means that you are working under the premise of how you believe it should be, not the way it is.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

To find the answer to this thread we need to answer the following...

Is the potentional for life, actually life?

Yes......... absolutely.


you could compare it to a winning lottery ticket that has not been cashed in. If somebody ripped it up would you be upset? or would you say "nah its cool man, its not like it was money or anything."

 

[Whiskey Steve]

It's just not a relevant point considering my post. Weren't we were talking legal issue here? It seems it has grown into a moral/religious issue, as it usually does.

The term "should" in your response just means that you are working under the premise of how you believe it should be, not the way it is.

I believe that abortion should be illegal unless the mothers life is in severe danger. I don't say this in a way that makes the mother more important. I say this only because the mother has a better chance of survival.

But for this theads purpose. The way the law currently is, that man can only be held responsible for one murder.

 

[spatch]

Yes......... absolutely.


you could compare it to a winning lottery ticket that has not been cashed in. If somebody ripped it up would you be upset? or would you say "nah its cool man, its not like it was money or anything."

EXCELENT point

 

[Alexander]

This isn't a moral debate here. It is technicality in the law.
And I am thinking

I assume someone close to you had an abortion so you have emotions tied to the issue that are affecting your logic.

Funny that YOU should say this isn't a moral debate. You are the one that is arguing morals. I am just telling you what the law is, and that there is no chance that they will ever give a stranger the same rights to a fetus as they would the mother to be/or not to be. Your assumption is wrong, I don't know anyone who has ever had an abortion. In most cases I consider abortion to be disgusting, for the record.

 

[Alexander]

:goodpost:

Definitely not good posting. Its not a fair comparison. The pregnant woman could've been raped or in danger of dying due to the fetus. Where as in your comparison that is not a possiblility. O.K. now I'll debate a bit of morals. You guys don't think a woman that gets raped has the right to abortion. Now that is insane. She has no intentions of having a child, and you think she should be forced to have a bastard child. I mean everytime she looks at the kid she'll remember being raped. Plus the kid will have the genes of the psychopath that raped her.

 

[spatch]

Plus the kid will have the genes of the psychopath that raped her.

Einstein had the genes of a candle maker...

 

[Alexander]

Probably made some very creative candles. I see your point on giving the kid up for adoption, but is that setting the kid up for disaster(better then death I know).

 

[toughchick401]

You won't ever win it, as there is no answer, except HE WAS DRUNK....in most cases the legal limit is .08, some cases as myself and other CDL holders, its .04.....

In this case it's simple, driving drunk is against the law, simple, he killed 2 people, a woman and her child, he took away HER right, and her life i believe you said, they both died?


Another moral debate that will lead to this thread being locked!

 

[natedogg]

IMHO, abortion should be legal, but only when the child is too undeveloped to feel, think, dream, etc and in a situation where the mothers life is in danger. And, in a few select cases, when all proper precautions were taken (birth control, etc) and the mother stil gets pregnant when the parents were planning, respsonsibly against it. In other words, you would need a damn good excuse to have an abortion after the first few months.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but the truth is, fetus' can feel after about 5 weeks in the womb. Most people don't even find out they're pregnant up until that point or beyond. According to you, In order for abortion to be legal, you need to catch it right away which isn't always the case. But for the most part, I agree with you. Abortion should only be used in extreme circumstances, not as birth control.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'm not getting it huh? O.K. so you're saying a stranger should have as much right to give a woman an abortion as the woman herself? WOW! Please answer my question.

Does your mother have more of a right to kill you than a stranger?

At a certain point, the fetus is thinking, dreaming, feeling, and ALIVE...and this point is MUCH EARLIER than the point when many abortions take place. And, at this point, the baby is equally as "violated" by a stranger who kills it an a mother who aborts it.

I'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I think once you allow the child to live (when its no longer just a simple biological cell mass) you better have a damn good reason to kill it, otherwise, he should be allowed to grow and choose whether or not he wants to live. Now, I do understand that there are situations when abortion is the best option, and I have no problem with that. If my fiance got pregnant now, we'd have an abortion. We're not prepared to have a child (if we ever do) and we are taking proper preventative measures--she's on birth control, and I'm on a gram of Test hahaa.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but the truth is, fetus' can feel after about 5 weeks in the womb. Most people don't even find out they're pregnant up until that point or beyond. According to you, In order for abortion to be legal, you need to catch it right away which isn't always the case. But for the most part, I agree with you. Abortion should only be used in extreme circumstances, not as birth control.

Well, feeling was only one of a few things on my list

But really, once you know you're pregnant, you shoudl figure out really quick whether or not you want an abortion.

 

[natedogg]

I got ya bro. We're 100% in agreement.

 

[jonny21]

Does your mother have more of a right to kill you than a stranger?

At a certain point, the fetus is thinking, dreaming, feeling, and ALIVE...and this point is MUCH EARLIER than the point when many abortions take place. And, at this point, the baby is equally as "violated" by a stranger who kills it an a mother who aborts it.

I'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I think once you allow the child to live (when its no longer just a simple biological cell mass) you better have a damn good reason to kill it, otherwise, he should be allowed to grow and choose whether or not he wants to live. Now, I do understand that there are situations when abortion is the best option, and I have no problem with that. If my fiance got pregnant now, we'd have an abortion. We're not prepared to have a child (if we ever do) and we are taking proper preventative measures--she's on birth control, and I'm on a gram of Test hahaa.

What about a situation with life support? Parents can pull the plug but a stranger cannot.

A few of us seem to be missing the legal issue that was brought up. Abortion is legal at this time, in this country.

Killing people while driving a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol is illegal at this time in this country.

Don't mix up your moral or religious feeling /sentiments with the law.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I have no clue what your point was supposed to be...honestly.

I'm not religious, and my morals are pracitcally in the toilet, if you know anything about me. But, I am fair, IMO. And, a law can be added, removed, or modified, so the fact that its a law means that it should be "obeyed" while in effect, but doesn't justify the action. We could change the law, and that's what many people do with many different things all the time. And, IMO, we should change the laws on abortion.

A few things I'd add...ghetto mommy's who use abortion as birth control would be sterilized. And, you'd have to qualify for an abortion--and these would be very lenient qualifications, but for example (not a complete list, I don't have THAT much time on my hands): before the abortion, you were taking preventative measures that to avoid pregnancy; delivery will put your life at risk, or something of that nature.

Basically, if you were responsible and got unlucky, you're entitled to an abortion. If having a child will bring hardship or harm to you or your family, you're entitled. If you're a hooker who uses abortion as birth control, I'll personally sterilize you with a butter knife and fire stocking rod :twisted:

You get the idea. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to abort a baby, just that abortions are ABUSED BIG TIME and as a result, unborn children are abused big time, unnecessarily.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

What about a situation with life support? Parents can pull the plug but a stranger cannot.

A few of us seem to be missing the legal issue that was brought up. Abortion is legal at this time, in this country.

Killing people while driving a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol is illegal at this time in this country.

Don't mix up your moral or religious feeling /sentiments with the law.

I know! gees
IF THE LAW DOES NOT RECOGNIZE A FETUS AS A HUMAN BEING WHEN INVOLVED IN A ABORTION THEN IT CANNOT SWITCH ITS STANCE. THE MAN CANNOT BE CHARGED WITH TWO MURDERS.
(its not that complicated. i cant understand why you guys do not see me and spatch's logic)


if i was mixing up my religious beliefs with this then i would say that the man should recieve two counts of man slaughter. but im not mixing them up, what i am doing is saying that the way the law is currently you cannot give that man two counts.
(actually i would give the man no sentence.... i believe in forgiveness, and that punishment will be arranged for us by God.)

I dont know how you could have thought that i was mixing my beliefs into this.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

What about this...
Shouldn't it be a more hideous crime for a mother to kill her own flesh and blood on purpose then a stranger on accident?

(i hate to say that but some where arguing the opposite)
btw both are irrelevant......unless the you really care who is killing you....your mother on purpose or a stranger on accident. I would prefer the stranger, but again, that is completely irrelevant.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

She has no intentions of having a child, and you think she should be forced to have a bastard child. I mean everytime she looks at the kid she'll remember being raped. Plus the kid will have the genes of the psychopath that raped her.

Is every rapist a psychopath.....no
We are all human beings capable of making mistakes. We can all chose to entertain disturbing thoughts until they turn into obsessions that could guide our actions. That is how most (possibly all) serial killer/rapist's get off their base with reality.
Give the child up for adoption.

Is the mothers psychological pain a good enough argument to merit murder? Should it be legal for me to kill people that have hurt my feelings or bulied me?

What you are saying is what they say about a horse: "If its lame, shoot it!"
Last time I checked, killing a mentally impaired human was illegal. Now i put down that argument.....any others?

 

[Iron Warrior]

Interesting discussion. I personally don't agree with abortion with the exceptions of extreme cases (i.e. the mother has complications that may endanger her life OR rape). However, if this is strictly interpreted by a law which states that abortion is legal than he should not be charged for the murder of the unborn child. Either way the guy is toast, he was under the influence and killed 1 person, he should be doing life for that IMO.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

However, if this is strictly interpreted by a law which states that abortion is legal than he should not be charged for the murder of the unborn child.

thank you

 

[Alexander]

I have no clue what your point was supposed to be...honestly.

I'm not religious, and my morals are pracitcally in the toilet, if you know anything about me. But, I am fair, IMO. And, a law can be added, removed, or modified, so the fact that its a law means that it should be "obeyed" while in effect, but doesn't justify the action. We could change the law, and that's what many people do with many different things all the time. And, IMO, we should change the laws on abortion.

A few things I'd add...ghetto mommy's who use abortion as birth control would be sterilized. And, you'd have to qualify for an abortion--and these would be very lenient qualifications, but for example (not a complete list, I don't have THAT much time on my hands): before the abortion, you were taking preventative measures that to avoid pregnancy; delivery will put your life at risk, or something of that nature.

Basically, if you were responsible and got unlucky, you're entitled to an abortion. If having a child will bring hardship or harm to you or your family, you're entitled. If you're a hooker who uses abortion as birth control, I'll personally sterilize you with a butter knife and fire stocking rod :twisted:

You get the idea. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to abort a baby, just that abortions are ABUSED BIG TIME and as a result, unborn children are abused big time, unnecessarily.

I disagree with you saying "if your responsible and got unlucky you're entitled to an abortion". You know damn well that birth control pills and condoms are not full proof. Damn man you're almost as bad as the hooker. Just kidding, but if the situation actually came up I bet you'd have the kid.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

I disagree with you saying "if your responsible and got unlucky you're entitled to an abortion". You know damn well that birth control pills and condoms are not full proof.

at least we agree on one thing


kwyck....
its like you have a gun with a safety that works MOST of time time. And you have enough balls to twirl it around your finger in a crowd. You better take responsibilty if it fires.

 

[cable626]

good point spatch, I like the thinking behind this. I completely understand you're idea: Either the baby is alive-therefore abortion should be illegal and the drunk driver charged with 2 counts of manslaughter, or the baby is not alive-meaning there's nothing wrong with abortion and the drunk driver only charged with 1 count of manslaughter.

Personally, I think everybody should be sterilized, and then once you pass a test about caring for a baby, take a blood test, and show that you have a decent amount of income to support him/her, then you are made fertile, and are free to have a baby. It's Darwinism!

Sounds harsh, but think about this:
think about the most average person you know (intelligence wise, he is the 50th percentile). Now imagine, half the people in the world are dumber than that (below 50%). Oh yea, people are stupid!


thats my rant, sorry about the run on sentences.