Mood Enhancers

[TyMan14]

Hi everyone!

Didn't want to post this in the supps forum, as it is related, but also more so for a quality of life than supplementing my diet. So a little bit of background.

I have had issues with depression/anxiety for years, and have taken many steps to move forward from this, and am currently recovering from some pretty devastating disorders (depression, anxiety, bulimia, substance abuse). I spent 2 years drinking alcohol and abusing some drugs. I do not have an addictive personality, but more so used those things to cope more than anything. I no longer drink or use any drugs besides kratom for pain and mood enhancement. I am finally back to making progress with bodybuilding after drinking away what I had worked so hard to achieve. I never stopped training, but I could not eat correctly and was constantly killing protein synthesis with alcohol. I am completely sober as of 4 months ago, and even before that I was tapering off of everything to avoid any sort of withdraws. This is something that I normally hide from everyone, but being on a decently anonymous forum with a lot of great people that I have talked to makes me much more comfortable with sharing my story.

So fast forward to today, being a college student, it is very hard to go out and not utilize alcohol. I am looking for some sort of alternative. Not looking for "feeling drunk", but something to help loosen up, relax, and just better enjoy myself without being an anxious wreck. I have been using "potions" sold at a local nutrition store (it is a mix of phenibut and a 10:1 extract of Kanna, or Sceletium, which is a natural SSRI). I absolutely love them, but they are 15 dollars a bottle, and the tolerance to phen grows so quickly, you cannot use it 2 days in a row (like thursday/friday/saturday which is usually when I go out). I know that these ingredients are absolutely amazing for my purposes, but I don't want to develop any sort of dependence on phenibut.

I'm asking if anyone knows anything similar to the potions that I have described, which would ideally be without phenibut, but atleast feel decently similar? I can absolutely go without, I just feel that it would make things much easier on me as I continue to try to stay sober and move forward from my past issues. And before anyone asks, yes I have been working with a doctor on my situation, but this is outside the realm of what the doctor can do.

I totally understand if I get flamed for this, as it is definitely a topic that doesn't get brought up much. Essentially it boils down to an alternative to alcohol when I go out with friends. I know there used to be like potion 9 and stuff like that on the market, I am asking if there is still anything out there that is similar and is preferably not spiked with things like GHB like the originals were?

Thank you to anyone who responds. I ask that you not judge me for my past or my decisions in this.

 

[Aleksandar37]

A lot of us have been in the same spot, so no judgment here! I have to say that I'm a little hesitant to recommend anything that is a product at all even if it's "natural." Have you tried activities or exercises to help boost confidence or lower anxiety in those situations? Not knowing you at all, I just worry that you're trading one habit for another.

 

[Heavychevss]

Hi everyone!

Didn't want to post this in the supps forum, as it is related, but also more so for a quality of life than supplementing my diet. So a little bit of background.

I have had issues with depression/anxiety for years, and have taken many steps to move forward from this, and am currently recovering from some pretty devastating disorders (depression, anxiety, bulimia, substance abuse). I spent 2 years drinking alcohol and abusing some drugs. I do not have an addictive personality, but more so used those things to cope more than anything. I no longer drink or use any drugs besides kratom for pain and mood enhancement. I am finally back to making progress with bodybuilding after drinking away what I had worked so hard to achieve. I never stopped training, but I could not eat correctly and was constantly killing protein synthesis with alcohol. I am completely sober as of 4 months ago, and even before that I was tapering off of everything to avoid any sort of withdraws. This is something that I normally hide from everyone, but being on a decently anonymous forum with a lot of great people that I have talked to makes me much more comfortable with sharing my story.

So fast forward to today, being a college student, it is very hard to go out and not utilize alcohol. I am looking for some sort of alternative. Not looking for "feeling drunk", but something to help loosen up, relax, and just better enjoy myself without being an anxious wreck. I have been using "potions" sold at a local nutrition store (it is a mix of phenibut and a 10:1 extract of Kanna, or Sceletium, which is a natural SSRI). I absolutely love them, but they are 15 dollars a bottle, and the tolerance to phen grows so quickly, you cannot use it 2 days in a row (like thursday/friday/saturday which is usually when I go out). I know that these ingredients are absolutely amazing for my purposes, but I don't want to develop any sort of dependence on phenibut.

I'm asking if anyone knows anything similar to the potions that I have described, which would ideally be without phenibut, but atleast feel decently similar? I can absolutely go without, I just feel that it would make things much easier on me as I continue to try to stay sober and move forward from my past issues. And before anyone asks, yes I have been working with a doctor on my situation, but this is outside the realm of what the doctor can do.

I totally understand if I get flamed for this, as it is definitely a topic that doesn't get brought up much. Essentially it boils down to an alternative to alcohol when I go out with friends. I know there used to be like potion 9 and stuff like that on the market, I am asking if there is still anything out there that is similar and is preferably not spiked with things like GHB like the originals were?

Thank you to anyone who responds. I ask that you not judge me for my past or my decisions in this.

30 years ago in the original format/intended use GHB was good stuff.... J/Offs upping doses and using for recreational or worse uses F'd that up.

Isn't there a strain of Kratom that is more "social" than others. Just be careful you are not just changing crutches.

 

[TyMan14]

A lot of us have been in the same spot, so no judgment here! I have to say that I'm a little hesitant to recommend anything that is a product at all even if it's "natural." Have you tried activities or exercises to help boost confidence or lower anxiety in those situations? Not knowing you at all, I just worry that you're trading one habit for another.

I've been working on it as a whole. I just want something for those nights out with people so I'm not tempted to turn to alcohol, and that loosens me up so I can have a good time. I've been working on finding something to boost confidence as well actually

 

[TyMan14]

30 years ago in the original format/intended use GHB was good stuff.... J/Offs upping doses and using for recreational or worse uses F'd that up.

Isn't there a strain of Kratom that is more "social" than others. Just be careful you are not just changing crutches.

There was a potion around here before that called "verruckt". They are no longer around, and many are theorizing it is due to GHB being in them without being labeled actually. If that's what it was, it was definitely some good stuff!

If there is a Kratom strain I haven't found it yet. I usually alternate between red vein Bali and red kaupuas to make sure my tolerance stays down, and I find those two are the most relaxing strains

 

[kisaj]

GHB definitely works in this regard, but it's not legal and probably not a long term solution. We all go through periods as you explain, but what would help, IMO is a nice stack that would influence your desire to socialize. It's not sexy, but does increase dopamine, which is directly responsible for boosting social interaction, mood, confidence, and alertness.

l-tyrosine
rhodiola
ashwagandha

 

[TyMan14]

GHB definitely works in this regard, but it's not legal and probably not a long term solution. We all go through periods as you explain, but what would help, IMO is a nice stack that would influence your desire to socialize. It's not sexy, but does increase dopamine, which is directly responsible for boosting social interaction, mood, confidence, and alertness.

l-tyrosine
rhodiola
ashwagandha

Hmmm. I actually really like this idea. I've been using Mtest which has some of those in it (btw, only a couple weeks in and this stuff is great! Even as a young guy I can feel it doing its thing). I take GABA and 5htp for sleep and I find that the 5htp has been really making a difference when taken daily. I'm broke right now (love college life!) so hopefully what I have will last me. Those "potions" are 15 bucks a piece but I have a buddy there that hooks me up a little bit cheaper. So they are definitely a one night a week treat kind of thing. And I don't want a dependency on phenibut. I'm going to have to look into more of those ingredients.

With regards to anxiety, I'm kind of SOL beings I have a script for 20mg of adderall XR which will most likely bump to 25mg next doctors visit. I have mild add so I don't need much, but the anxiety from amphetamines can get brutal. Although it has been a godsend for me to actually get my work done.

 

[kisaj]

Well, on top of that, Adderall works in part by increasing your dopamine levels and also epinephrine, and norepinephrine. That's why people feel so good on it and helps them concentrate. But it takes time to replenish these levels and essentially leaves two options- dose the Adderall again to boost those levels back up, or deal with the crash that occurs until you can naturally replenish. The problem being that with low levels, it increases anxiety, temper, and creates a brain fog. So it's easy to see why people get hooked, because no one wants to feel bad.

With that being said, if you are taking Adderall already, then I don't know how much will be felt by taking the items I listed as they won't compete with Adderall. Serotonin from the 5-htp is making you feel better because you need to keep dopamine and serotonin balanced.

 

[TyMan14]

Well, on top of that, Adderall works in part by increasing your dopamine levels and also epinephrine, and norepinephrine. That's why people feel so good on it and helps them concentrate. But it takes time to replenish these levels and essentially leaves two options- dose the Adderall again to boost those levels back up, or deal with the crash that occurs until you can naturally replenish. The problem being that with low levels, it increases anxiety, temper, and creates a brain fog. So it's easy to see why people get hooked, because no one wants to feel bad.

With that being said, if you are taking Adderall already, then I don't know how much will be felt by taking the items I listed as they won't compete with Adderall. Serotonin from the 5-htp is making you feel better because you need to keep dopamine and serotonin balanced.

I only use the adderall Monday Wednesday and Friday. I only get really anxious when I am on it, and not really on my days off. I do notice a bit of irritability, but it is nothing major. I also have honestly never gotten the euphoria from adderall. It puts me in a slightly better mood, but other than that I just feel more zoned in. A bit jittery at times, but nothing too wild. I had read a little bit on its effects on dopamine, but when I didn't get any sort of "dopamine rush" or euphoria, I kind of shrugged it off and forgot about it It totally makes sense though. I've found that dosing more than 3 days per week (as my script say every day, which I tried for a few weeks) just murders my appetite around the clock and the tolerance build up starts within just a few doses, so I'm trying not to use it every day. Although when I start cutting it may be a useful tool for keeping my energy and mood up while killing my appetite and not spending money on a thermo to help with that.

I definitely feel the effects of 5htp though. It really helps my sleep and I usually wake up in a better mood. There are some nights though where I will take it and if I don't fall asleep within about 30-45 minutes of taking it I get major depressive thoughts and it keeps me awake, so I have to be very careful with dosage timing. I have a bulk powder and use 3 50mg scoops (roughly 150mg, I'm sure there is a bit more or less most of the time in the scoop), 800-1000mg of gaba, and drop it in about a half a scoop of the original xtend for flavor/extra aminos before bed. The M-test has KSM-66 so that is solid. Are there any other ingredients that you have found to help? I never have really felt much from Rhodiola, but I've never used it solo, only in a multi-ingredient product.

 

[kisaj]

You really should use rhodiola as a separate supplement because it is important to know the ratio of rosavin to salidrosides as this will change the effect since a higher rosavin % will lean serotonergic and and high salidrosides will lean dopaminergic. The most studied ratio that provides intended benefits are 3:1. Rhodiola is dependent on ratio and mg, as it is dosed on a curve. Lower doses provide more stimulation and higher doses are sedative.

Some other items to look into are:
passion flower
SAM-E- which also offers many other benefits related to joint and liver health
Aniracetam- my personal favorite. Thought compartmentalization (no jumbled thoughts in head), speech fluidity, anxiolytic

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You really should use rhodiola as a separate supplement because it is important to know the ratio of rosavin to salidrosides as this will change the effect since a higher rosavin % will lean serotonergic and and high salidrosides will lean dopaminergic. The most studied ratio that provides intended benefits are 3:1. Rhodiola is dependent on ratio and mg, as it is dosed on a curve. Lower doses provide more stimulation and higher doses are sedative.

Some other items to look into are:
passion flower
SAM-E- which also offers many other benefits related to joint and liver health
Aniracetam- my personal favorite. Thought compartmentalization (no jumbled thoughts in head), speech fluidity, anxiolytic

There's a lot of research on 3% rosavins + ~2% salidroside as well (SHR-5). If I recall, the majority of studies on endurance use a 3/1 extract, but many on fatigue and whatnot use the SHR-5.

 

[kisaj]

Sure, I just wanted to give him a starting point as he was unaware, so the safest place was with the ratios/area most benefits and pros are associated with.

I personally prefer a ratio higher in salidroside as I perform and feel better with it.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Sure, I just wanted to give him a starting point as he was unaware, so the safest place was with the ratios/area most benefits and pros are associated with.

I personally prefer a ratio higher in salidroside as I perform and feel better with it.

Yeah, the 3:1 is also a lot more common than the 3:2. I also highly recommend getting an extract standardized for both, as I've found often times when you have an extract that only lists high content (3%+) for one, it's often very low in the other. I've seen COAs for 3% salidroside extracts with almost no rosavins.

 

[TyMan14]

Definitely going to be looking into rhodiola. I have used SAM-E and didn't really see much out of it, but will definitely revisit it. Passion flower has only really helped me with slip, not much else. Aniracetam is something I've grown interested in as social anxiety has really been an issue for me. And being freshly single in college with horrible social anxiety makes it hard to reach out to any woman. Lol

Lots of great suggestions so far guys! When I get a little more money I'm definitely going to start working with some of these. I currently am trying to lower my Kratom doses down to take a little time off (mostly because I am definitely addicted to it (granted it really does help) but I want to prove to myself that I can get away from it and be more responsible. Daily usage, even the lower doses that im using, can definitely cause issues. So I'm going to need something good to keep my mood in check while I'm doing so. Got my dosage down over 3g from when I started this 4 days ago, so it's successful thusfar with no withdraw symptoms. Not much left to taper.

I really appreciate the help guys! I'm going to start digging into the suggestions and seeing what will work best. If anyone has any more suggestions, definitely drop them in. I'm always looking to learn!

 

[TyMan14]

Really quickly; maybe I should post this in the sup forum, but could anyone explain how this product provides a high that is similar to being drunk with these ingredients at the low dosages that are listed? One of these and I don't feel like drinking at all, so it's amazing, but it makes me feel very intoxicated, and I can't understand how if this product is not spiked with something. Should I post that in the supp section? Does anyone have any insight?

 

[TyMan14]

This one as well. These are the two different "potions" that I use

.

 

[M.I.D]

what about 5-htp?

 

[kisaj]

Those are some pretty f'd up blends that you'd see in a truck stop around here.

You are getting ****ed up by 3-4 of the ingredients mixed together:
phenibut- relaxation, mild euphoria, sleep
kanna - can either induce extreme relaxation, tiredness, or slightly stimulating. It really depends on the strain and amount.
phenylpiracetam - highly mentally energizing, mental clarity, can elevate sound and sight perception
caffeine - well, we all know caffeine

They are mixing uppers and downers and that is age old for getting seriously intoxicated. Personally, I'd be throwing those things in the trash and not look back. It cannot be safe.

 

[Brandinooooo]

I was in the same boat with drugs and anxiety for a long time bro. I've tried those drinks your talking about. For me, kratom works the best. I switch up the strains for the effect I want.

Some of those drinks helped (can't remember the name off hand), but weren't something you'd take daily. I have bad anxiety about stupid things lol. Kratom helps me.

Have you looked into Phenibut? Low doses of it daily are great. Same mechanism of action as benzo.

ie; GABA agonist

 

[kisaj]

Having only begun understanding and trying kratom, I can honestly say that it is something I find amazing, but need to make sure it is kept to a reasonable schedule per week. I've taken it a few times after work when I get home and the strong euphoria, pain relief, and relaxation is mentally addicting. There is no question a place for it, just need to treat it with respect.

 

[UCSMiami]

St. John's Wort? I like it. I am naturally a happy disposition person. Some days mojo is low and use it. I think it is working because one rarely finds me down in the dumps.

 

[rtmilburn]

St. John's Wort? I like it. I am naturally a happy disposition person. Some days mojo is low and use it. I think it is working because one rarely finds me down in the dumps.

I thought the st John's wort was more accumulative then acute?

 

[UCSMiami]

I thought the st John's wort was more accumulative then acute?

Could be. It was recommended to me during a down period and worked then.

 

[rascal14]

Having only begun understanding and trying kratom, I can honestly say that it is something I find amazing, but need to make sure it is kept to a reasonable schedule per week. I've taken it a few times after work when I get home and the strong euphoria, pain relief, and relaxation is mentally addicting. There is no question a place for it, just need to treat it with respect.

Very mentally addicting. I will only buy a little at a time because I know if I have it I will take it nightly until it's gone.

 

[TyMan14]

I use Kratom daily. I love it. Alternating between red Bali and red kapuas. Trying to taper down my dosage and get off of it for a little while (been going a few months straight so it's time to take time off and get that tolerance back down and avoid any more addiction) so that is why I'm looking for alternatives.

On the potion front, is that really dangerous? The one without caffeine honestly is much stronger in my opinion, and by that explanation, it wouldn't make sense?

 

[TyMan14]

Those are some pretty f'd up blends that you'd see in a truck stop around here.

You are getting ****ed up by 3-4 of the ingredients mixed together:
phenibut- relaxation, mild euphoria, sleep
kanna - can either induce extreme relaxation, tiredness, or slightly stimulating. It really depends on the strain and amount.
phenylpiracetam - highly mentally energizing, mental clarity, can elevate sound and sight perception
caffeine - well, we all know caffeine

They are mixing uppers and downers and that is age old for getting seriously intoxicated. Personally, I'd be throwing those things in the trash and not look back. It cannot be safe.

That makes sense! But they feeling only lasts like an hour and a half ish. Phenibut and kanna are definitely active much longer. That's why I'm so confused

 

[ELROCK]

Have you tried kanna or kava yet?

 

[ELROCK]

I also would suggest tianeptine sulphate, but if you have an addictive personality you really should stay away.

 

[kisaj]

That makes sense! But they feeling only lasts like an hour and a half ish. Phenibut and kanna are definitely active much longer. That's why I'm so confused

Too many variables to say. Could be the way you metabolize it, no idea of the mg of each in a blend, and in all honesty could just be BS. I mean, they do spell phenylpiracetam as phenylpiracetum, so it's a crap shoot.

 

[TyMan14]

Too many variables to say. Could be the way you metabolize it, no idea of the mg of each in a blend, and in all honesty could just be BS. I mean, they do spell phenylpiracetam as phenylpiracetum, so it's a crap shoot.

I didn't even notice the spelling!

But we used to have veruckt and potion here. They were the same thing really but with a bit more caffeine and no phenibut. And they were insane. But they stopped making them, because many of us speculate they had GHB in them. I'm thinking these might too, but the feeling is much more indicative of GHB than it is phenibut and kanna. I tried making the originals (found all of the "dosages") and could never come close to matching it.

 

[ELROCK]

Have you tried kanna or kava yet?

I see you have tried kanna before in that product, but have you tried quality kanna before solo? Or quality kava before?

 

[TyMan14]

I see you have tried kanna before in that product, but have you tried quality kanna before solo? Or quality kava before?

I have tried kanna from a few different source. Fermented powder and 10:1 extract. Neither were game changers, but the fermented powder definitely was pretty nice. Been debating picking up some more for another trial with it.

I've had Kava in a tee that the local hookah bar sells to sip on there and I enjoy that quite a lot. I havent figured out a cheap enough quality source yet that I would like to buy from. Also a little concerned about the liver health issues with it.

 

[TyMan14]

I have decided to pick up some Ashwagandha. The source I am looking at is from powder city, but it does not tell me the extract percentages. I am also looking at NOW foods ashwagandha. This stuff is so cheap it is worth a shot. I can't figure out what the best SAMe supplement would be, as I wanted to go bulk powder, but I am reading that is not a good idea. The powder is cheap and the caps are super expensive, and out of any range that I can afford. I am also using Tr1umph, which contains 100mg of Rhodiola. I am looking at a separate 3% extract Rhodiola. What would be the best dosage for that to stack while Im on Tr1umph(only have a month left with it, and I will probably go back go green mag for the cost). I think that the stack of ashwagandha and rhodiola is the bst bet for me to start off with. Thanks for your help!

 

[TyMan14]

Actually the M-test has plenty of ashwagandha now that I look back at it. Over 600mg of KSM66. So I guess my questions really apply to rhodiola and the best dosage/way to take it. I figure I'll add that in and add more supps if needed. Trying to keep things on the cheap.