Deoudes' Theory: Propecia + Weed + Alcohol = Gyno? (calling science gurus)

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    Deoudes' Theory: Propecia + Weed + Alcohol = Gyno? (calling science gurus)


    Tell me if my fairly limited scientific understanding of homornal processes hits on something here...

    Background:
    *I have a friend (21) who smokes a lot of marijuana (probably 4-5times a week). I've never smoked weed, but I'm assuming that is 'a lot'.

    *When he isn't smoking himself stupid - he's drinking alcohol in excess - 2 or 3 times a week - and even binge drinks to where he losses his memory - probably once every 10 days.

    *Starting about 18 months ago, he started taking Finasteride (propecia 1mg) for hairloss.

    Since, I swear he's developing breast tissue. He's not lean, but doesn't appear fat by not bodybuilder standards (5'10'' ~175lbs, ~19%BF). He's always had a fair amount of chest fat, but now his nipples are enlarged (disgusting).

    With my bodybuilding background and knowledge of anabolics, I can usually spot what is chest fat and what is gyno. I'm 95% sure it's gyno.

    The theory that occurred to me was this:
    "chronically" Smoking Marijuana (Elevates Estrogen)
    Binge Drinking (Obliterates/Lessens Natural Testostrone Production)
    Finastride (Cuts the body's Normal Production of DHT by 95%)

    Put it together:
    Without the DHT to combat daily elevated estrogen levels, and the alcohol smashing the natural testostrone production a couple of times a week - you have a recipe for gyno.

    It could be he is getting gyno simply from the Finasteride, but the marijuana and alcohol has got to be accelerating the process.

    Thanks for bearing with me through is disgusting analysis.
    Any opinions are welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deoudes59
    Tell me if my fairly limited scientific understanding of homornal processes hits on something here...

    Background:
    *I have a friend (21) who smokes a lot of marijuana (probably 4-5times a week). I've never smoked weed, but I'm assuming that is 'a lot'.

    *When he isn't smoking himself stupid - he's drinking alcohol in excess - 2 or 3 times a week - and even binge drinks to where he losses his memory - probably once every 10 days.

    *Starting about 18 months ago, he started taking Finasteride (propecia 1mg) for hairloss.

    Since, I swear he's developing breast tissue. He's not lean, but doesn't appear fat by not bodybuilder standards (5'10'' ~175lbs, ~19%BF). He's always had a fair amount of chest fat, but now his nipples are enlarged (disgusting).

    With my bodybuilding background and knowledge of anabolics, I can usually spot what is chest fat and what is gyno. I'm 95% sure it's gyno.

    The theory that occurred to me was this:
    "chronically" Smoking Marijuana (Elevates Estrogen)
    Binge Drinking (Obliterates/Lessens Natural Testostrone Production)
    Finastride (Cuts the body's Normal Production of DHT by 95%)

    Put it together:
    Without the DHT to combat daily elevated estrogen levels, and the alcohol smashing the natural testostrone production a couple of times a week - you have a recipe for gyno.

    It could be he is getting gyno simply from the Finasteride, but the marijuana and alcohol has got to be accelerating the process.

    Thanks for bearing with me through is disgusting analysis.
    Any opinions are welcome.
    oh well, gettem a cheap surgeon, your theory sounds correct, I mean its in statistics that just being an alcoholic or pothead alone can give ya gyno, together with finasteride ? makes sense.
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    sorry man, but your friend sounds like a loser. I have nothing against recreational drugs, but this guy sounds like he's just asking for his body to crap out on him (in this case a nice set of tits)
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    When I'm on test and smoke it up, I get gyno flare-ups rather quickly. I know for a fact that it's the pot that's doing it to. But it's nothing that a little nolva won't fix right up. I am very prone to gyno and so I accept it and move on. You should maybe try telling your friend your concerns and reccomend him to start taking nolva.

    You'll always read that pot doesn't increase E levels, or rather it does increase E levels, etc. but everybody is different and it effects us differently as does everything else. All you can really do is tell him and let him decide for himself.
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    another thing about pot it tends to make you lazy and hungry, and thus fatter which never helps with female-pattern fat storage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deoudes59
    The theory that occurred to me was this:
    "chronically" Smoking Marijuana (Elevates Estrogen)
    Binge Drinking (Obliterates/Lessens Natural Testostrone Production)
    Finastride (Cuts the body's Normal Production of DHT by 95%)
    The problem with that is that in over 25 years of research no one has found marijuana affecting sex hormones in any significant or permanent way. In lab studies super high doses of lab grade THC have been shown to have minor effects on sex hormone production in animals, which reverses once use stops. Your friend's problem is that he's a loser who is constantly intoxicated, and as such is likely to gain weight all around because of all the extra calories and the appetite stimulation from the weed. Tell him to lay off the weed and beer until he learns some self control.
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    you didn't mention your friend's diet...sounds so far like he's in high-speed pursuit of a short miserable life & an agonising early death. what's his age? is he the professional couch-potato he sounds like? he also sounds like a student (it's hard to hold down much of a job w/ those behaviors) - if so, what are his grades like?

    have you tried talking to him about any of this - and did he even pretend to listen? the bitter truth is that people rarely abandon destructive behaviors for any reason short of near-tragedy.

    gyno is the least of this guy's problems
    if he's smart, strong AND lucky , maybe he'll wake up & decide to stay alive
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    Yup I agree, smoke and drink has been shown to decrease test and increase E, add propecia (it sucks) and its time to see the endo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard
    you didn't mention your friend's diet...sounds so far like he's in high-speed pursuit of a short miserable life & an agonising early death. what's his age? is he the professional couch-potato he sounds like? he also sounds like a student (it's hard to hold down much of a job w/ those behaviors) - if so, what are his grades like?

    have you tried talking to him about any of this - and did he even pretend to listen? the bitter truth is that people rarely abandon destructive behaviors for any reason short of near-tragedy.

    gyno is the least of this guy's problems
    if he's smart, strong AND lucky , maybe he'll wake up & decide to stay alive
    He is 21.

    It may surprise you (or maybe not) but my friend is basically doing the same thing most college frat kids do. He's not in a frat though. The concept is "it's college" (lets destroy our body before the real world sets in).

    He's by no means the stereotypical "pothead" - and he won't ever admit to being a pothead. After all, potheads listen to greenday, hang out at skate parks, and wear loose clothes. He is a rich kid - but like so many other rich kids who are potheads by definition but not by appearance.

    As for diet, it's mainly garbage. I don't know the specifics - but assume that it's a college diet - buffalo wings, pizza, burgers, other garbage. Eat the standard breakfast, lunch, dinner (so he's not taking in that many calories in quanity - just ****ty calories when he does.

    Usually a night of drinking and not bringing a girl home - calls for a trip to IHOP (if you're in the north) or Waffle House (in you're in the south). God, I don't even like to think about that lifestyle.

    He's a student and his GPA sucks. He talks about how he's going to make all sorts of money - but I don't know when this is supposed to happen. Highschool his GPA was garbage and he smoked weed before the SAT and didn't break 900, either time.

    We actually used to lift weights together about 3 years ago. I was (6-1, 180lbs, 6-7%BF) and he was (5-10, 165, 18%BF). I'll never forget, he refused to train legs. One day, he stood there watching me do squats rather than even half-assing them. Unreal. He rather take the humiliation of sitting there and watching - than the pain of the exercise. Any other time we'd go for legs - he'd wear Kahki Cargo Shorts (which "didn't allow [him] to work legs). It was just for the summer, and we never lifted again.

    He doesn't understand why he can't make gains. I tell him it's the alcohol, but he's not hearing that (for starters). Plain and simple: his balls ain't work .

    And you're absolutely right, Gyno is the least of the problems.
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    direct him to BB.com where some kind soul will quickly set him on the nitro-tech/cell-tech path. surely his gains will come then; it works for dexter and jay!
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    haha, well I had him taking NLarge II (by prolab) bought from BB.com, he went from 165 to 180, got fatter.
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    Believe it or not, while smoking pot 4-5 times per week might seem like a lot, there are many people who smoke 4-5 times per day, 7 days per week. I'm not trying to make excuses for your voluptuous friend, just saying that there is huge variance in people's intake of herbals. I am a reformed smoke show/alcoholic myself, and I was a lot worse than your friend. Good thing I found bodybuilding (first it was marathoning).

    I think your theory seems sound, though I am not a science guru.
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    I think when he does smoke weed, it is several times a day actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    ..........I'm not trying to make excuses for your voluptuous friend...........
    ROFLMAO! I love it! I've never referred to another man as voluptuous, but I may have to steal that one from you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    ROFLMAO! I love it! I've never referred to another man as voluptuous, but I may have to steal that one from you!
    Please, I encourage you to use it freely.

    When I first started working out/eating well I was bombarded with **** from my friends all the time. Fortunately, I am a lot quicker than most of them. I believe my first use of voluptuous in this context was a couple of years ago, when I pulled out my staple cottage cheese/yogurt/ almond/blueberry concotion. One friend began to go on about how I try so hard to maintain my girlish figure...to which I responded with a history lesson. I explained to him that if he were to consider perceptions of masculinity and femininity throughout history he would realize that with his voluptuous upper-body, child-bearing hips, and full buttocks, he much more closely resembled conceptions of femininity across cultures and time, as seen, for example, in classical paintings of flabby, nude women. Conversely, my chiseled abs, striated pecs and vascular delts and arms are much more in line with the classical ideal.

    I was in hysterics; he didn't think it was very funny. I don't recall a single comment from him since then.

    I really enjoy shutting up people who try to ridicule my attempts to improve myself. That was one of many examples. Now, a lot of my friends come to me for training/diet advice.
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    reality is, we are bodybuilders, and we are BETTER than most people in the world. Not just in a physical sense - but we are psychologically much stronger.

    There is only a small legit percent who don't lift weights because of lack of time, but their time is spent working hard at their career - which I respect to the fullest. Often they have greater responsibility to (their children, family, significant other, etc.) than themself.

    The other 90% are simply lazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    .... I explained to him that if he were to consider perceptions of masculinity and femininity throughout history he would realize that with his voluptuous upper-body, child-bearing hips, and full buttocks, he much more closely resembled conceptions of femininity across cultures and time, as seen, for example, in classical paintings of flabby, nude women. Conversely, my chiseled abs, striated pecs and vascular delts and arms are much more in line with the classical ideal....
    hahahahah...that's some funny ****.

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    Beowulf.....


    ****in' had me on the floor

    O14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odessa14
    Beowulf.....


    ****in' had me on the floor

    O14
    You know how it is. I had to make 'em my bitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    The problem with that is that in over 25 years of research no one has found marijuana affecting sex hormones in any significant or permanent way. In lab studies super high doses of lab grade THC have been shown to have minor effects on sex hormone production in animals, which reverses once use stops. Your friend's problem is that he's a loser who is constantly intoxicated, and as such is likely to gain weight all around because of all the extra calories and the appetite stimulation from the weed. Tell him to lay off the weed and beer until he learns some self control.
    Agreed. The pot use is a scapegoat many use. No studies (and read some of my previous posts here and at BB.com indefense of it) have shown an actual increase in estrogen hormone in humans, that was postulated from the study CDB mentions, not with a solid background. Most likely another perosn with a "dem drugs are bad" mentality, but no real scientific basis that merits that conclusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jweave23
    Agreed. The pot use is a scapegoat many use. No studies (and read some of my previous posts here and at BB.com indefense of it) have shown an actual increase in estrogen hormone in humans, that was postulated from the study CDB mentions, not with a solid background. Most likely another perosn with a "dem drugs are bad" mentality, but no real scientific basis that merits that conclusion.
    Now that you mention it, I do recall that the US gov. ran a huge anti-marijuana campaign that included such glaring innaccuracies as the film "Reefer Madness", which claimed that smoking pot will turn your daughters into sex-crazed lunatics. Of course, one of the worst things about herb is that it can make you utterly indifferent to sex. I think it actually decreases the chance of risky sexual behavior.
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    There is one study that shows a decrease in test production from smoking something on the order of 9 grams of pot. I'd be in a coma well before gram 2 was ever reached.

    Alcohol's ability to cause fat gain is well documented.

    Propecia and Proscar are notorious for causing gyno and are the likely cause for your friend's condition. Systemically removing DHT from a male of any age is seriously flawed science IMO.

    Daily pot use is a factor for millions of Americans. Polls from the Economist show it to be twice as prevelant as "beer dependency" FWIW.
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    The sexual sides of pot vary greatly from person to person. It seems like about 50/50..those who claim it makes them too lazy for sex and those who claim it makes them horny as hell (I'm in this group).
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    i smoked an ounce in 2 days, is that bad?
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    pot makes me too lazy for sex, I'd rather be eating cookies usually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    Now that you mention it, I do recall that the US gov. ran a huge anti-marijuana campaign that included such glaring innaccuracies as the film "Reefer Madness", which claimed that smoking pot will turn your daughters into sex-crazed lunatics. Of course, one of the worst things about herb is that it can make you utterly indifferent to sex. I think it actually decreases the chance of risky sexual behavior.
    The days of Henry Anslinger, effectively America's first Drug Czar. The funny thing is a couple years after the reefer madness nonsense he went before congress and said commies were slipping weed to our soldiers to make them too lazy to fight. First it's bad because it turns you into a violent, sex crazed lunatic. Then it's bad because it makes you lazy and you don't want to fight. The government's never been able to make up its mind as to exactly why pot is evil, but they're darn sure it is evil regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    The days of Henry Anslinger, effectively America's first Drug Czar. The funny thing is a couple years after the reefer madness nonsense he went before congress and said commies were slipping weed to our soldiers to make them too lazy to fight. First it's bad because it turns you into a violent, sex crazed lunatic. Then it's bad because it makes you lazy and you don't want to fight. The government's never been able to make up its mind as to exactly why pot is evil, but they're darn sure it is evil regardless.
    sure they have, it takes money out of the coffers of big industry... namely alcohol, tobacco, and pharmceutical industries.... people get high for peanuts, why buy benzos? why get drunk? (hangover), why smoke cigarettes to calm down (addictive)....?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerschaum
    sure they have, it takes money out of the coffers of big industry... namely alcohol, tobacco, and pharmceutical industries.... people get high for peanuts, why buy benzos? why get drunk? (hangover), why smoke cigarettes to calm down (addictive)....?
    They'd still make money. Weed has some minor value as medicine, it'd be up to those same industry leaders to develop safer versions of it for use, such as vaporized versions and pills that don't have the same zombie effect marinol does. As for personal use, while it's easy to grow if you know how, and I do, were I to start using it again for some reason I'd much rather buy a finished product with a filter than grow and roll my own. There'd still be some regulation and licensing involved anyway were it legal, leaving it mostly to mid to large sized companies who could afford to do it. I think it's still illegal to be honest because of social inertia. It really doesn't matter to most people, and while a lot of people are arrested for it, it's mostly minor level stuff. A ticket and a fine, no criminal record. No one's really too concerned on either side of the debate.

    To go back on topic, it's most likely the Propecia that would cause gyno. That's a known side effect. The only thing the weed would do is increase munchie intake, which might lead to greater bf%, and that plus the hormone imbalance leads to gyno.

    I honestly don't know how people get out of high school and college and don't grow out of this stuff. The few friend I have who smoke do so only once a week, if that. I haven't touched it in years. Too many responsibilities and I don't find enjoyment in altered states of consciousness anymore. I have to wonder why some people don't just grow up.
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    Depends on what they're using it for. If they have a constant need to recreate in an altered state of consciousness then yes, that leans toward immaturity or recklessness..an avoidance of responsibility.

    When I used, I used mainly at night about an hour before bed so I could sleep deeply. I almost never drink, I'm married so partying is a dead issue but quality sleep and being calm and rested the next day worked for me for several years.

    One could easily argue that bodybuilding is an addiction of its own. I think steroid use is definitely addictive to a lot of people. It's all a matter of how well a person manages their addictions/habits/hobbies. When any one thing in life becomes all encompassing, balance is lost and lives run into trouble.
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    Yeah, I agree working out can be addictive. As long as you don't overtrain and hurt yourself every other week though, it's a healthy addiction.
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    I smoke at least EOD. Usually about a dimebags worth. I used to be a BIGTIME stoner all throughout high school, and then found BB'ing. Then I used to eat LSD like it was friggin' pez candy. Not to mention every other kind of drug out there. But have since given all that up.

    I actually just started smoking again this past summer after having quit for a good 2 years. SO it wasn't because I "needed" to do it...but because I wanted to do it because I liked it. And I know that it isn't gonna make me sell my car for an ounce of pot...lol.

    Pot helps me relax after a hard-days work, and helps me to not take things for granted in a way that lets me enjoy every thing life has to offer. Not only those kinds of reasons, but I really enjoy the social aspects of it. A lot of our local lifter's here that I am a part of just like to kick back, and blaze on for the nation. And I know for a fact that you wouldn't call us lazy, stupid, stoners, etc. whenever you would happen to meet us in person. Different strokes for different folks.

    Also, O/T, but AAS *was* actually starting to get the best of me for awhile. I would keep using it as a crutch and totally be addicted to it. I had to take a long look in the mirror and ask myself wtf I was doing anymore. It's time to slow down at the least. THe hard part about quitting AAS use is I still enjoy reading a lot about it and sometimes that alone will just get me wanting to do another cycle again.
  

  
 

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