The Irony of Atheism

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One of the great ironies of the contemporary atheistic movement comes from its ubiquitous use of rhetoric, branding, and emotional triggers to advocate for reason. The leading atheists trumpet their devotion to reason in all their public communications, typically featuring the word in bold type across the names of their books, websites, organizations, and events. For instance, Sam Harris, co-founder and chairman of Project Reason, has said, "The only angels we need invoke are those of our better nature: reason, honesty, and love." Christopher Hitchens told us in God Is Not Great: "We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake." In the BBC (Channel 4) documentary The Enemies of Reason, Richard Dawkins, founder of The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, claims, "Reason has built the modern world." Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Michael Shermer have gone so far as to argue that atheists should really be called "brights," in light of their insistence on a reasoned approach to all knowledge. Throughout their books, talks, and websites, the New Atheists consistently promote their allegiance to the glory of reason.

This is not a novel development; the "new" atheists are hardly the first atheists to claim the brand of reason for themselves. In Aristophanes's play The Knights, written in 424 B.C., Demosthenes asks Nicias, "Do you then believe there are gods? . . . What proof have you?" There is a well-established tradition that connects the skepticism of religion with a love for reason. But some of these connections are more dubious than others. For instance, during the French Revolution, a "Cult of Reason" ransacked churches for their silver and gold and "converted" these churches into Temples of Reason. In the government-sanctioned "Festival of Reason" that accompanied this movement, a young woman was presented as the Goddess of Reason.

At other times the connection has been presented hyperbolically, without reference to serious historical or sociological research. To provide just two examples, Nietzsche once wrote that "all founders of religions and their likes . . . feel a thirst for things which are contrary to reason and do not put too many difficulties in the way of satisfying it" (emphasis added). More recently, H. L. Mencken said, "Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration---courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth."

How Atheists Unwittingly Honor God

For the New Atheists, as for some of the old, ardent love for reason apparently motivates visceral disgust of religion. As Harris has said, "Religious faith is the one species of human ignorance that will not admit of even the possibility of correction." Dawkins has even gone so far as to say that molesting children "may be less harmful in the long run" than giving children a religious education.

Despite such attacks, as Christians we are delighted that those who consider themselves our opponents are such ardent appreciators of reason. After all, Jesus famously proclaimed that the most important commandment includes loving God "with all of your mind" (Mk. 12:30). So, ironically, we believe that atheists honor God unawares when they reason well. Because we desire to honor God, we want to demonstrate why Christianity provides the most reasonable framework for the existence and use of reason.

The contrasts are clear: atheists claim that religion is the main barrier to reason. Christians believe our capacity to reason comes from being created in the image of an all-knowing God, and the active use of reason is an important way to honor him. Atheists brand themselves as a community united by reason. Christians marvel at how this group rallies together even as their most prominent leader, Richard Dawkins, argues that evolution favors the selfish gene, not the reasonable group. Atheists work hard to eradicate religion for the sake of a brighter future. Christians are amazed that atheists so blissfully ignore the scientific fact that, if religion is a false consolation, the future always ends in death.

Atheism Is a Thought Stopper

Leading atheist Sam Harris says "faith is a conversation stopper." Christians reply that Harris has also said that none of us is "the author of your thoughts and actions in the way that people generally suppose." The reductionistic, deterministic, and materialistic worldview of many atheists seems, to reasonable Christians, to exclude the existence of transcendent, immaterial things like propositions, the rules of logic, and, most important of all, the very existence of minds.

These aren't straw men, but rather, a description of how many atheists see the stakes as well. Consider the famous Madalyn Murray O'Hair's speech on atheism from 1962:

We must look to materialistic philosophy which alone enables men to understand reality and to know how to deal with it . . . Atheism is based upon a materialist philosophy, which holds that nothing exists but natural phenomena. There are no supernatural forces or entities, nor can there be any. Nature simply exists. But there are those who deny this, who assert that only mind or idea or spirit is primary. This question of the relation of the human mind to material being is one of the fundamental questions dealt with by all philosophers, however satisfactorily. The Atheist must slice through all obfuscation to bedrock, to the basic idea that those who regard nature as primary and thought as a property (or function) of matter belong to the camp of materialism, and that those who maintain that spirit or idea or mind existed before nature or created nature or uphold nature belong to the camp of idealism. All conventional religions are based on idealism.

That is the question: do we have minds, or are we neurological processors akin to robots? And which worldview can better account for the existence and use of reason?

In short, [True Reason] directly challenges the goals of organized atheist communities. Our hope is their fear: a revitalization of faith and thinking Christianity. Their identity as reasoning individuals depends upon the truth of our worldview. Their communal ideals of honesty, freedom, love, and justice are borrowed from the Bible. The very existence of reasoning Christians responding to atheist rhetoric undermines their fallacious, straw man depiction of religious people.
 

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Nice cut and paste. A source would be good
 

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Nice cut and paste. A source would be good
Also, love and peace etc... Are borrowed from the bible? I guess ancient civilizations that predate the bible did not have any of that. :rolleyes:
 
Touey

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Also, love and peace etc... Are borrowed from the bible? I guess ancient civilizations that predate the bible did not have any of that. :rolleyes:
you miss the entire point only to focus on truism which applies to today
 
MuscleBound1337

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I don't see any point in this cluster**** of a post. Yeah atheists have reasons for what they believe . where have you proven anything with this? The defuakt position is to not believe something, so if you want some one to believe you or take you seriously as all you better have some proof.
 
Piston Honda

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you miss the entire point only to focus on truism which applies to today
Cutting and pasting does not equal profundity. It takes nothing to pass off another's thoughts when you can't articulate them yourself.

I didn't even bother to read whatever garbage you posted.

Nice try to counter the whipping everyone's getting in the I Am For Phil thread.
 
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it is not about whipping it is about saving
 
Piston Honda

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"Death is a false consolation" - um, I DON'T want to live forever; things are precious precisely because they end. What happens when I die will be exactly the same as before I was born.

Your arrogance in feeling the need to "save" me or others like me is what you morons need to realize is actually the sin of pride. Don't legislate my life, which is what Mr. Duck was obliquely trying to do in his comments from the other thread. Christians feel there are people that need "saving," and Christians are uniquely qualified and mandated to do so. To which I say, go f*ck yourself and f*ck your "god" or your notion of him.
 

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you miss the entire point only to focus on truism which applies to today
This is your response?

There was no point to your post. It was more drivel, as seems to be a constant for you. Sadly
 
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Touey

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As C.S. Lewis explained, “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”

"Reason requires the existence of immaterial (non-naturalistic) things: ideas, the laws of logic, mathematical objects, and the fundamental principles of reasoning. And to reason, an agent must purposefully choose to think about these ideas. But rocks cannot be ‘about’ something: so how can neurons be ‘about’ the law of gravity? Further, normative rules govern the reasoning process: 2+2 does not equal elephant. Where do these rules come from? And why do they apply to our brains?"
 
Piston Honda

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As C.S. Lewis explained, "If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees." "Reason requires the existence of immaterial (non-naturalistic) things: ideas, the laws of logic, mathematical objects, and the fundamental principles of reasoning. And to reason, an agent must purposefully choose to think about these ideas. But rocks cannot be 'about' something: so how can neurons be 'about' the law of gravity? Further, normative rules govern the reasoning process: 2+2 does not equal elephant. Where do these rules come from? And why do they apply to our brains?"
1) sophistry
2)

image-499869279.jpg
 
Piston Honda

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That's a troll by the way
 
Touey

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love this!!! that's tattoo material right there
or you could go the Tolkien route :) more space perhaps but I prefer Hobbits over trolls ;)“End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.”
 
Piston Honda

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or you could go the Tolkien route :) more space perhaps but I prefer Hobbits over trolls ;)“End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.”
So many Christians waiting for death so they can go to heaven...believing Jesus already died for their sins past, present, and future...why not just kill yourselves and go to heaven quicker if that's what you truly believe? It's not such a bad thing, because Jesus has already forgiven you!

Or will you come up with a way to justify living and by doing so, contradicting the major tenet of your faith?

Copy and paste your dumbas$ quote here ______________________
 
mtinsideout

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So many Christians waiting for death so they can go to heaven...believing Jesus already died for their sins past, present, and future...why not just kill yourselves and go to heaven quicker if that's what you truly believe? It's not such a bad thing, because Jesus has already forgiven you!

Or will you come up with a way to justify living and by doing so, contradicting the major tenet of your faith?

Copy and paste your dumbas$ quote here ______________________
Suicide is a sin and I'm not sure if it is an immortal sin or not... Immortal sins are those in which you are NOT forgiven.
 
theOCdude

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Bible is nonsense and for everyone talking about death you don't know what happens so stop trying to sound philosophical because you are sounding comical. I see now point in this thread.
 
mtinsideout

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Bible is nonsense and for everyone talking about death you don't know what happens so stop trying to sound philosophical because you are sounding comical. I see now point in this thread.
For all the idiots that take the Bible literally I'll say this... The Bible is to be used as a guide line as means to live, do something bad and expect something bad to happen to you. Do something good and don't expect anything back from doing it because that is what you are supposed to do. I don't know how people use the bible to justify hate or intolerance for anyone. And yes there are somethings in the Christian/Catholic faith (and many other faiths for that matter) that I don't agree with which is why i think it is best for people to take on there own beliefs, stop bashing everyone elses fatih, stop trying to force your own beliefs upon others and just go about your life being the best person you can be. South Park I think got it right with science becoming a new religion someday lol...
 
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Suicide is a sin and I'm not sure if it is an immortal sin or not... Immortal sins are those in which you are NOT forgiven.
Which brings up the contradictions inherent in Christian theology...all sins are forgiven, except for those which aren't.

In the medieval context of religion, suicide and murder were seen as unforgivable because you could not make a proper atonement for what you took...a thief could be forgiven i he returned the object of his theft, but once you took a life, you couldn't give that back. Medieval theologians pointed to Judas' suicide as justification for the unforgivable sin. Which contradicts their own doctrine.
 
mtinsideout

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Which brings up the contradictions inherent in Christian theology...all sins are forgiven, except for those which aren't.

In the medieval context of religion, suicide and murder were seen as unforgivable because you could not make a proper atonement for what you took...a thief could be forgiven i he returned the object of his theft, but once you took a life, you couldn't give that back. Medieval theologians pointed to Judas' suicide as justification for the unforgivable sin. Which contradicts their own doctrine.
I'm not disagreeing with you there are many inconsistencies in many fo the Christian/CAtholic beliefs... They are also unique to a particular dilemma if intelligent alien life is ever discovered, did Jesus die for there sins as well?
 
theOCdude

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For all the idiots that take the Bible literally I'll say this... The Bible is to be used as a guide line as means to live, do something bad and expect something bad to happen to you. Do something good and don't expect anything back from doing it because that is what you are supposed to do. I don't know how people use the bible to justify hate or intolerance for anyone. And yes there are somethings in the Christian/Catholic faith (and many other faiths for that matter) that I don't agree with which is why i think it is best for people to take on there own beliefs, stop bashing everyone elses fatih, stop trying to force your own beliefs upon others and just go about your life being the best person you can be. South Park I think got it right with science becoming a new religion someday lol...
I like religion in the fact that it teaches people to be good and help out the world as a whole, I don't like how it divides people, causes wars, and makes people believe they have to live their life a certain way. I think everyone would be better off without religion and just learn how to act on their own or get taught by someone else.
 
theOCdude

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I'm not disagreeing with you there are many inconsistencies in many fo the Christian/CAtholic beliefs... They are also unique to a particular dilemma if intelligent alien life is ever discovered, did Jesus die for there sins as well?
Jesus was an alien (not of this world) as is god, but I can only think that is why the mass public is not told of et life.
 
mtinsideout

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I like religion in the fact that it teaches people to be good and help out the world as a whole, I don't like how it divides people, causes wars, and makes people believe they have to live their life a certain way. I think everyone would be better off without religion and just learn how to act on their own or get taught by someone else.
Actually you may be interested to know that someone started something called the Sunday Assembly... Basically it is a Sunday community gathering similar to Church but without the talk of religion or god. It welcomes anyone willing to go and I think is something that will become more popular in the future. http://sundayassembly.com/about/
 
mtinsideout

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Jesus was an alien (not of this world) as is god, but I can only think that is why the mass public is not told of et life.
Supposedly... Ancient Aliens definitely gets me thinking sometimes, I don't rule anything out anymore lol.
 
theOCdude

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Supposedly... Ancient Aliens definitely gets me thinking sometimes, I don't rule anything out anymore lol.
No real explanation of pyramids or Stonehenge and it just so happens the the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun and 400 times closer to the earth than the sun, plus science says its too big to be in our orbit that close...
 
Touey

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"Angry people are not always wise.”
― Jane Austen
 
mtinsideout

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No real explanation of pyramids or Stonehenge and it just so happens the the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun and 400 times closer to the earth than the sun, plus science says its too big to be in our orbit that close...
Then you probably already know about the hollow moon theory. Hollow Moon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: Not sure if you have ever seen this site but if you watch Ancient Aliens here is the other side of the coin. Ancient Aliens Debunked | A refutation of the history channel show Ancient Aliens
 
Touey

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an attack upon the character of every person in which one happens to disagree with is more pointless than using an eyedropper to empty the ocean
 
theOCdude

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Then you probably already know about the hollow moon theory. Hollow Moon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: Not sure if you have ever seen this site but if you watch Ancient Aliens here is the other side of the coin. Ancient Aliens Debunked | A refutation of the history channel show Ancient Aliens
The hollow moon is interesting and ancient aliens is on history so its a joke, I do understand how the pyramids could have been built by man but still...I can't comprehend how many men and tools and time it would have taken so it just puzzles me.
 
fame126

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god is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance - Neil degrasse Tyson
 
mtinsideout

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The hollow moon is interesting and ancient aliens is on history so its a joke, I do understand how the pyramids could have been built by man but still...I can't comprehend how many men and tools and time it would have taken so it just puzzles me.
^^^Agreed, I work as an engineer for a living and my company designs building systems. Just the thought of how this was constructed really is amazing and that our ancestors could have achieved such a thing with primitive tools and tactics. As much of a joke as ancient aliens is, at times it does bring up some good points that at least make you think.
 
theOCdude

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^^^Agreed, I work as an engineer for a living and my company designs building systems. Just the thought of how this was constructed really is amazing and that our ancestors could have achieved such a thing with primitive tools and tactics. As much of a joke as ancient aliens is, at times it does bring up some good points that at least make you think.
Always question things and I also think that if aliens where not involved than it just shows how amazing the human race is.

Would rep for good convocation but on Mobil
 
mtinsideout

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Always question things and I also think that if aliens where not involved than it just shows how amazing the human race is.

Would rep for good convocation but on Mobil
Lol its all good man, I gave you reps for the convo as well.
 
mtinsideout

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Hard to find people who aren't set in stone on things and are open to new ideas
I hear that man... I'm always learning and try to spend my life as a student.
 
BoneDaddy

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So let me get this straight.....Touey does a copy and paste on Chapter 2 of the book True Reason as a thread starter for.....what exactly?

The second chapter is written by Carson Weitnauer (who runs the site reasonsforgod.org). This chapter is beyond bad. It's truly awful. It's full of so much misinformation, straw men and disjointed arguments that it was truly exasperating and, frankly, disappointing, to read. If they're gonna talk tough about us unreasoned atheists, they can at least get our arguments right first.
 
Touey

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"Isn’t it interesting that we look at and study everything within the natural world from a first-person perspective, except other persons? There’s a fundamental, categorical difference between, say, molecules in a test tube and a conscious self. One thought experiment asks us to consider the difference between a neuroscientist’s understanding of pain after studying all of the relevant literature and after a bowling ball falls on her foot. The first person “ouchiness” experience is a different kind of knowledge, distinct from a third person understanding of our neurological structures.

As T.H. Huxley, known as “Darwin’s Bulldog,” once remarked, “how it is that any thing so remarkable as a state of consciousness comes about as the result of irritating nervous tissue, is just as unaccountable as the appearance of the Djin when Aladdin rubbed his lamp.”
 
Oscar

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I used to consider myself a fervent atheist although I guess now you could say I'm agnostic or just gnostic I believe that it doesn't matter whether or not a god or gods exist or if there's an afterlife. I just don't get how people live for what can't be known.
 
lukehayd

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So one side thinks the other side is wrong? Wow, that's a shocker! How about we not bash anybody for their beliefs? You want to believe that there's no God or gods -fine but don't bash those that do believe and call them stupid. Same goes for those that do believe in God or gods that we shouldn't be bashing those that don't believe. I'm so tired of seeing all the hatred that is spewed all over in threads like these. One side says their arguments are right and the other side says their arguments are right. We are all human beings and not one of us has all the answers! Even though we have the anonymity of being on the internet, does not excuse the blatant disrespect that is shown by some. Ok, short little rant over.
 
theOCdude

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So one side thinks the other side is wrong? Wow, that's a shocker! How about we not bash anybody for their beliefs? You want to believe that there's no God or gods -fine but don't bash those that do believe and call them stupid. Same goes for those that do believe in God or gods that we shouldn't be bashing those that don't believe. I'm so tired of seeing all the hatred that is spewed all over in threads like these. One side says their arguments are right and the other side says their arguments are right. We are all human beings and not one of us has all the answers! Even though we have the anonymity of being on the internet, does not excuse the blatant disrespect that is shown by some. Ok, short little rant over.
The greatest fear is the fear of being wrong... And death.
 
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I fear sharks. Then I remind myself that I live in Buffalo and there are no lake sharks. Then I fear cobras; then I realize it's not the right climate for them. Then I fear clowns...
 
Touey

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The greatest fear is the fear of being wrong... And death.
According to most studies, people’s number one fear is public speaking. Number two is death. That means to the average person, if you have to go to a funeral, you’re better off in the casket than doing the eulogy.
Jerry Seinfeld
 
theOCdude

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According to most studies, people's number one fear is public speaking. Number two is death. That means to the average person, if you have to go to a funeral, you're better off in the casket than doing the eulogy.
Jerry Seinfeld
I think if someone had to talk in front of a crowd or shot in the head they would choose to talk. They just say public speaking but put those two things in front of someone and animal instincts will kick in.
 
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Why would i believe in a book, snakes talking an what not. Religion was just a way to control people before a government and queens and kings.
 
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