i am for phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by CincyKiller45 View Post
    To focus on certain phrases, ignoring the meta-themes of justice, forgiveness and love in the Bible is just an example of not seeing the forest for the trees and in my opinion a perversion of the original message.
    The original messages in verses such as (but not limited to) Mathew 19: 4-6, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, 1 Tim. 1:9-11, and 2 Peter 2:6-10 seem pretty clear, and does not require any pruning to facilitate seeing the forest.

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    Its amazing, now the sodomites want to use the Jedi mind trick on us and tell us that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a sin.
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    Merry Christmas everyone!
    Recognize the true reason that we are all here, on earth, in the Universe.
    Celebrate in style this year, make sure everyone know what it is about! Celebrate the birth of Christ, our Lord and Savior.


    Forget all if fancy stuff you don't need. Give it to people that need it.

    I'M sick of going into a store seeing bratty kid begging for outrageous gifts. Or how About those 6--12 year olds with tablets and iPhone, and they still beg for more.


    Well, anyways, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
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    Merry Christmas to all!!!
    I believe most people are essentially good. I know that I am. It's you I'm not entirely sure of.
    ― Stephen King.
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    Quote Originally Posted by n87 View Post
    Merry Christmas to all!!!
    This was the best message of the thread. Forget the rest if the nonsense... Let's just wish each other well. N87..same to you and yours. Enjoy the time with family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This was the best message of the thread. Forget the rest if the nonsense... Let's just wish each other well. N87..same to you and yours. Enjoy the time with family.
    No doubt. Disappointing to know that I correspond with so many bigots on here just based on this thread alone. Just further proof of how ridiculous religion is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    No doubt. Disappointing to know that I correspond with so many bigots on here just based on this thread alone. Just further proof of how ridiculous religion is.
    Bigotry applies to you just as much me. You're very well "devoted" to your opinion and belief system as much as I am. Don't get it twisted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    No doubt. Disappointing to know that I correspond with so many bigots on here just based on this thread alone. Just further proof of how ridiculous religion is.
    This has nothing to do with bigotry. People disagree and thats it. Don't degrade others because they disagree with you.
    Further; this is only partially about religion. Homosexuality would be repulsive to me even if there was mo religion. Its natural to be repulsed by it. That doesn't mean we should treat those who struggle with it with respect. But you cant force me to want to love two men committing sodomy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post

    This has nothing to do with bigotry. People disagree and thats it. Don't degrade others because they disagree with you.
    Further; this is only partially about religion. Homosexuality would be repulsive to me even if there was mo religion. Its natural to be repulsed by it. That doesn't mean we should treat those who struggle with it with respect. But you cant force me to want to love two men committing sodomy.
    This is where you lose me. No one cares if you love it. It is their life.. Not yours

    By the same token... Can't get me to love the idea of selling my daughter into slavery per the old testament.

    Now.. Go enjoy the holiday
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This is where you lose me. No one cares if you love it. It is their life.. Not yours By the same token... Can't get me to love the idea of selling my daughter into slavery per the old testament. Now.. Go enjoy the holiday
    Well when you are firing me or forcing me to bake cakes for them them you make my life your life.
    As for the old Testament, we are not under the law of Moses and I dont know anyone who is demanding their right to sell their daughter into slavery.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post

    Well when you are firing me or forcing me to bake cakes for them them you make my life your life.
    As for the old Testament, we are not under the law of Moses and I dont know anyone who is demanding their right to sell their daughter into slavery.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
    I assume you are referencing your job? That is a choice you made. Might want to rethink your career choices then.

    You disregard the OT? That opposes what Jesus wanted as an old testament teacher. Neither here nor there really. I would be happy to direct the New testament and show you the silliness, but I will just say

    Merry Festivus ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I assume you are referencing your job? That is a choice you made. Might want to rethink your career choices then. You disregard the OT? That opposes what Jesus wanted as an old testament teacher. Neither here nor there really. I would be happy to direct the New testament and show you the silliness, but I will just say Merry Festivus ;-)
    So then you would say its ok if I fired someone who was a homosexual?

    Jesus abolished the the law if Moses. Please school me on your knowledge of how Jesus wants me to sell my daughter into slavery.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post

    So then you would say its ok if I fired someone who was a homosexual?

    Jesus abolished the the law if Moses. Please school me on your knowledge of how Jesus wants me to sell my daughter into slavery.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
    Boy oh boy... You are certainly missing the point and seem to be prone to putting words in my mouth (metaphorically).

    Jesus was an OT scholar. Nowhere in the NT did he state he was abolishing the words of Moses or starting a new religion. In act, his purpose, based on the 4 "accepted" gospels was to alter the temple hierarchy. However, now people actually look at the "sun" of man as more than intended. Thank you Constantine. B-)

    For the true meaning of Christmas please review the winter festivals of ancient Saturnalia, with special references to Sol Invictus (original sun) and of course the many references to Mithras. I should probably bow out of this thread now, as the tone will change and not be productive.

    I would say this.... If Jesus truly existed as written... Try to emulate hat and be accepting the way he would have been. Leave the homophobia at the door.

    Happy Saturnalia
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    Christ told us there is a piece of his Kingdom inside all of us and let us focus on what unifies us and not what separates.

    I cannot comprehend how people rebuke others because their ideas differ. You can be an; atheist, agnostic, Christian, Jew, homosexual, black, white, hispanic, etc. and that doesn't matter. Our ideas or God given traits might differ, but that doesn't mean we can't respect each other.

    Joe, why the hell does it matter if you baked a cake for a non-Christian? You think Jesus would have said: "no I'm not baking your cake because I know someone who got fired for expressing his beliefs". That makes you no better than the other.

    I also read your comment and I'm pretty sure you were hypothesizing that I was gay. I lol'd. Couldn't be further from the truth. I might believe it's disgusting, but that doesn't mean I believe God condemned it anymore than God promoted slavery. I'm not alone in this belief. There are pastors and biblical scholars alike that share my opinion.

    I hope we can put this argument aside for Christ's day, but I doubt it. We are humans after all, the same ones who wrote the Bible.

    Merry Christmas AM nation!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CincyKiller45 View Post
    Christ told us there is a piece of his Kingdom inside all of us and let us focus on what unifies us and not what separates.

    I cannot comprehend how people rebuke others because their ideas differ. You can be an; atheist, agnostic, Christian, Jew, homosexual, black, white, hispanic, etc. and that doesn't matter. Our ideas or God given traits might differ, but that doesn't mean we can't respect each other.

    Joe, why the hell does it matter if you baked a cake for a non-Christian? You think Jesus would have said: "no I'm not baking your cake because I know someone who got fired for expressing his beliefs". That makes you no better than the other.

    I also read your comment and I'm pretty sure you were hypothesizing that I was gay. I lol'd. Couldn't be further from the truth. I might believe it's disgusting, but that doesn't mean I believe God condemned it anymore than God promoted slavery. I'm not alone in this belief. There are pastors and biblical scholars alike that share my opinion.

    I hope we can put this argument aside for Christ's day, but I doubt it. We are humans after all, the same ones who wrote the Bible.

    Merry Christmas AM nation!
    You sir are awesome. Well said and much respect. I sincerely hope you are enjoying the day with your family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Boy oh boy... You are certainly missing the point and seem to be prone to putting words in my mouth (metaphorically). Jesus was an OT scholar. Nowhere in the NT did he state he was abolishing the words of Moses or starting a new religion. In act, his purpose, based on the 4 "accepted" gospels was to alter the temple hierarchy. However, now people actually look at the "sun" of man as more than intended. Thank you Constantine. B-) For the true meaning of Christmas please review the winter festivals of ancient Saturnalia, with special references to Sol Invictus (original sun) and of course the many references to Mithras. I should probably bow out of this thread now, as the tone will change and not be productive. I would say this.... If Jesus truly existed as written... Try to emulate hat and be accepting the way he would have been. Leave the homophobia at the door. Happy Saturnalia
    Sorry for putting words in your mouth. Im sure where I did that but I was trying to apply what they did to Phil with anyone else who a boss doesn't agree with because of their life choices and beliefs.

    As for Jesus being an OT scholar, of course He is He's the author of it. When I say Jesus abolished the law of Moses was I meant was we are not obligated to follow the ceremonial parts and he says that many times through out the NT. Paul flat out says it many times. Im not sure where you get that He wanted to wanted to alter the heirarchy so much as He wanted to point out their hypocrisy and how they wanted to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. And yes you are right He did not want to start a new religion. Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. Other began to call the followers of Christ Christians. Jesus is the promised Jewish Messiah and we are simply following Him because He is God incarnate.
    You dont have to bow out. Unlike the people who claim homosexuality is about love and tolerance and never show it if you disagree , i will not call you names.
    As for Jesus existing, He is mentioned more in extra Biblical texts than is Tiberius Ceaser, he is also mentioned by Josephus. So whether you beljve is the Christ or not is one thing; but its indisputable that He existed.
    I do try to emulate Him; I love and accept and treat with respect people who dont agree with me and I rebuke in love as Jesus did. Go and sin no more as He said to the adulterous.
    I am not a homophobe, that word was invented to silence people who want us to accept a practice that is an abomination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post
    Sorry for putting words in your mouth. Im sure where I did that but I was trying to apply what they did to Phil with anyone else who a boss doesn't agree with because of their life choices and beliefs.

    As for Jesus being an OT scholar, of course He is He's the author of it. When I say Jesus abolished the law of Moses was I meant was we are not obligated to follow the ceremonial parts and he says that many times through out the NT. Paul flat out says it many times. Im not sure where you get that He wanted to wanted to alter the heirarchy so much as He wanted to point out their hypocrisy and how they wanted to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. And yes you are right He did not want to start a new religion. Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. Other began to call the followers of Christ Christians. Jesus is the promised Jewish Messiah and we are simply following Him because He is God incarnate.
    You dont have to bow out. Unlike the people who claim homosexuality is about love and tolerance and never show it if you disagree , i will not call you names.
    As for Jesus existing, He is mentioned more in extra Biblical texts than is Tiberius Ceaser, he is also mentioned by Josephus. So whether you beljve is the Christ or not is one thing; but its indisputable that He existed.
    I do try to emulate Him; I love and accept and treat with respect people who dont agree with me and I rebuke in love as Jesus did. Go and sin no more as He said to the adulterous.
    I am not a homophobe, that word was invented to silence people who want us to accept a practice that is an abomination.
    Only a few things here...

    1. in terms of his existence, there is little to no contemporary accounts of Jesus. The 4 accepted gospels were written well after the events possibly took place. You are correct, there are some cursory mention by Josephus. However, I would ask you to look further into scholarly interpretations as to whether or Josephus' writings are authentic. It is very torn to be honest.
    2. Jesus being god? Please refer to the many mistranslations of Son of Man, specifically for the aramaic, hebrew, greek etc... translations. Not what you think.
    3. The use of Paul as a reference point weakens the argument IMO. Here is a man that supposedly had a vision, and thus gave up years of persecution of Christians. He then altered the histories, and the future of the NT was greatly changed. I would also tell you to look into the Nicean Council in 325 CE as well as the Council of Hippo in 393. You will notice that your NT was not what you originally thought.
    4. I never meant to "call names", so please accept my apologies. To call something an abomination is a very strong term that is quite offensive. There is much in the NT and OT that would be abominations. The funny thing with the homosexuality aspect, is that in the region where Jesus is believed to have existed, homosexuality was quite common, as it was in may ancient cultures at the time. Could it be that Jesus could have been gay?
    5. Finally, as someone born and raised Jewish, Jesus does not fulfill the criteria set forth for the Messiah. In fact, he is missing many of them. If need be, I would be glad to explain this further.

    Happy Saturnalia (just kidding, Merry Christmas)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Only a few things here...

    1. in terms of his existence, there is little to no contemporary accounts of Jesus. The 4 accepted gospels were written well after the events possibly took place. You are correct, there are some cursory mention by Josephus. However, I would ask you to look further into scholarly interpretations as to whether or Josephus' writings are authentic. It is very torn to be honest.
    2. Jesus being god? Please refer to the many mistranslations of Son of Man, specifically for the aramaic, hebrew, greek etc... translations. Not what you think.
    3. The use of Paul as a reference point weakens the argument IMO. Here is a man that supposedly had a vision, and thus gave up years of persecution of Christians. He then altered the histories, and the future of the NT was greatly changed. I would also tell you to look into the Nicean Council in 325 CE as well as the Council of Hippo in 393. You will notice that your NT was not what you originally thought.
    4. I never meant to "call names", so please accept my apologies. To call something an abomination is a very strong term that is quite offensive. There is much in the NT and OT that would be abominations. The funny thing with the homosexuality aspect, is that in the region where Jesus is believed to have existed, homosexuality was quite common, as it was in may ancient cultures at the time. Could it be that Jesus could have been gay?
    5. Finally, as someone born and raised Jewish, Jesus does not fulfill the criteria set forth for the Messiah. In fact, he is missing many of them. If need be, I would be glad to explain this further.

    Happy Saturnalia (just kidding, Merry Christmas)
    AE14, no, your first point is not correct. If we discount the Gospels (which we should not; but I will let that go for now) we have several contemporary non-Christian extra Biblical accounts of Jesus. We have Josephus, we have Tacitus, we have Suetonius, we have Thallus, we have Pliny The Younger and some other minor cursory mentions of Him. As I stated before, if you count both contemporary and later non-Christian, non-Biblical accounts of Christ, we have MORE evidence of His existence than we do of Tiberius Ceaser.
    As for Josephus's accuracy, yes, I know that some of his writings have come under scrutiny; but the fact that his mention of Christ was cursory as you stated, there is less reason to believe that it's not accurate.
    As for the Gospels, first they cannot be rejected as accounts (although obviously not extra-Biblical), if we were to do that than we should reject all the accounts of Alexander The Great from his admirers you would have a lot less historical evidence of his existence.
    Finally, the Gospels were written by Marc, Matthew, Luke and John within their life times, with Marc being written about the 40's A.D. and John being the last in about 60's A.D. We don't have the original writings but the oldest partial Gospel Of John is from 120 A.D. which means that it was written at least by that time or before since it was a copy of something else.
    For your second point, I'm not sure what you're asking because you asked me to refer to "mistranslations"? I'm not sure if you were being cute and want me to refer to the Gospels or if that was a typo. If you want me to site the Gospels I will.
    To your third point, I can't disagree more. The fact that Paul was a known persecutor of Christians and then did a 180 is prove that something life altering happened to him. I know about the Council Of Nicea in 325 AD, not sure what your point is on that. I vaguely heard about about the Council of Hippo but no nothing about it. I will look into it. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that because of the Council of Nicea my thoughts about the NT will change. Please elaborate. I don't want to assume and put words in your mouth.
    I accept your apology, please accept mine.
    Yes the word abomination is strong but it is the word the Bible uses. If this was not a Biblical discussion and we were just on the street corner in Brooklyn, I would use disgusting. If that is harsh as well, I'm sorry, that's how I feel. I like hairy vaginas, people have told me that's disgusting, should I get all bent out of shape? Yes there are much in the OT and NT that are abominations like lying, but you don't hear liars complain that it's offensive. The verse that Phil Robertson quoted from included heterosexual immorality as well. Did any fornicators demand he be taken off the air?
    I'm not sure where you come to the conclusion that Jesus is what you said He is just because there were a lot of homosexuals in that area and it was common in ancient times; but you do make an interesting point. We are told that homosexuality is a birth and cannot be learned or is not a choice (I think it's a combination but that's another debate), so if what your saying is true that there was a lot of homosexuality in the ancient world than all that "I was born this way" stuff is not true.
    As for Jesus fulfilling the criteria, yes He does. He was born in Bethlehem, He came out of Egypt, He was born of a virgin, He comes from the House of David and from the tribe of Juda, He made blind people see, there are more, let me know if you want all of them and I will e-mail you a list with OT Bible verses. Please explain where He didn't.
    Sorry for the delay in my response but I was making merry with my family and friends.
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    Being a bit short on time, here is something to address your final point

    • The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem—but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing. Jeremiah 33:18
    • The messiah will reestablish the Jewish religious law as the law of the land. Jeremiah 33:15
    • Mesiah will save Israel
    • He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of the world goernment. Isaiah 2:2-4, 11:10, 42:1
    • The messiah will return all exiles to their homeland Isaiah 11:11-12
    • Comes from the line of David

    None of these were accomplished by Jesus, and thus, he is not the Jewish Messiah as prophesied by the OT

    Also, add in how many Messiahs there were at the time performing miracles (I can provide a list if needed)

    I will address the other points a bit later.
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    Ok, Please note, I am not saying Jesus didnt exist, all I am saying is that there is a minimal amount of contemporary sources of his actions. Additionally, there are just as many for the many other Messiahs of the same time (i.e.Simon of Paraea, Simon bar Kokhba, and even the Emperor Vespasian)

    My point is, that to assume that the story of Jesus is accurate is quite short sighted imo. Jesus is a conglomeration of many pagan stories, myths, etc... all tied into one in an effort for the Romans to unify a fledgling empire.

    I dont know if you have ever read the other gospels, but I would recommend it. They were tossed out until Hippo in 393
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Being a bit short on time, here is something to address your final point

    • The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem—but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing. Jeremiah 33:18
    • The messiah will reestablish the Jewish religious law as the law of the land. Jeremiah 33:15
    • Mesiah will save Israel
    • He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of the world goernment. Isaiah 2:2-4, 11:10, 42:1
    • The messiah will return all exiles to their homeland Isaiah 11:11-12
    • Comes from the line of David

    None of these were accomplished by Jesus, and thus, he is not the Jewish Messiah as prophesied by the OT

    Also, add in how many Messiahs there were at the time performing miracles (I can provide a list if needed)

    I will address the other points a bit later.
    With the exception of the last point (He was from the line of David), you are 100% correct. These were the exact same points Jews who did not believe He was the Christ gave. But the problem is with the interpretation of the prophecy (and obviously this is up for debate). The prophecy of the Christ in the OT was a dual prophecy. Kind of like looking at two mountains from a distance and not being able to see the valley in between. As for the other Messiahs performing miracles they never made blind people see or raise themselves from the dead. Those were huge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Ok, Please note, I am not saying Jesus didnt exist, all I am saying is that there is a minimal amount of contemporary sources of his actions. Additionally, there are just as many for the many other Messiahs of the same time (i.e.Simon of Paraea, Simon bar Kokhba, and even the Emperor Vespasian)

    My point is, that to assume that the story of Jesus is accurate is quite short sighted imo. Jesus is a conglomeration of many pagan stories, myths, etc... all tied into one in an effort for the Romans to unify a fledgling empire.

    I dont know if you have ever read the other gospels, but I would recommend it. They were tossed out until Hippo in 393
    Ok, good because your previous posts seem to say that. As for minimal amount of contemporary sources of His actions you are correct; but that's where we must introduce the Gospels. I know you want to dismiss them; but a Dean Of Law named Simon Greenleaf wrote something called "The Testimony Of The Four Evangelists". His arguments are still used today in actual case law. The work operates on the idea of The Testimony of the witness is considered to be valid until proven otherwise in a court of law. Therefore; to disprove it you have to disprove the authenticity of the Gospels/manuscripts that still exist. I would recommend that you read a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist". It's a good read.
    Yes, I agree that it is short sighted to just assume that the Jesus story is accurate; but that's where faith comes in. As I got older and was confronted with the types of arguments you have presented I was forced to do what Paul had said in the NT which was prepare to give a reason for your faith. I struggled with many things in the Bible, beginning with alcohol. My Grand Father was an alcoholic and I was raised as a Catholic and told that alcohol was bad. So when I read in the OT that alcohol was good to drink after a meal I was incredulous. A few years later scientists confirmed that some wine helps with digestion. That was just the beginning, after that there were many other things I doubted like the 7 day creation, evolution, as I studied my doubts were resolved, not 100% but then again, what's a 100% in life. I'm looking to buy an apartment building for investment purposes and I'm terrified. I am doing research about each building and I can make an intelligent decision but regardless of how much information I gather I will never be 100% of the outcome of my investment.
    I don't know what other gospels you are referring to but if they are the ones I think you are referring to they were not tossed out at Hippo but in Nicea. Further, the doctrines laid forth in Hippo, in my opinion was the Proto-Catholic Church. I was raised Catholic but left when I was 15 and became a Baptist simply by redaing the Bible. So if you expect me to defend the Catholics you have reached a dead end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post
    With the exception of the last point (He was from the line of David), you are 100% correct. These were the exact same points Jews who did not believe He was the Christ gave. But the problem is with the interpretation of the prophecy (and obviously this is up for debate). The prophecy of the Christ in the OT was a dual prophecy. Kind of like looking at two mountains from a distance and not being able to see the valley in between. As for the other Messiahs performing miracles they never made blind people see or raise themselves from the dead. Those were huge.
    Actually, i would look further into the other messiahs as well as the stories of Mithras, Horus and Sol Invictus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post
    Ok, good because your previous posts seem to say that. As for minimal amount of contemporary sources of His actions you are correct; but that's where we must introduce the Gospels. I know you want to dismiss them; but a Dean Of Law named Simon Greenleaf wrote something called "The Testimony Of The Four Evangelists". His arguments are still used today in actual case law. The work operates on the idea of The Testimony of the witness is considered to be valid until proven otherwise in a court of law. Therefore; to disprove it you have to disprove the authenticity of the Gospels/manuscripts that still exist. I would recommend that you read a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist". It's a good read.
    Yes, I agree that it is short sighted to just assume that the Jesus story is accurate; but that's where faith comes in. As I got older and was confronted with the types of arguments you have presented I was forced to do what Paul had said in the NT which was prepare to give a reason for your faith. I struggled with many things in the Bible, beginning with alcohol. My Grand Father was an alcoholic and I was raised as a Catholic and told that alcohol was bad. So when I read in the OT that alcohol was good to drink after a meal I was incredulous. A few years later scientists confirmed that some wine helps with digestion. That was just the beginning, after that there were many other things I doubted like the 7 day creation, evolution, as I studied my doubts were resolved, not 100% but then again, what's a 100% in life. I'm looking to buy an apartment building for investment purposes and I'm terrified. I am doing research about each building and I can make an intelligent decision but regardless of how much information I gather I will never be 100% of the outcome of my investment.
    I don't know what other gospels you are referring to but if they are the ones I think you are referring to they were not tossed out at Hippo but in Nicea. Further, the doctrines laid forth in Hippo, in my opinion was the Proto-Catholic Church. I was raised Catholic but left when I was 15 and became a Baptist simply by redaing the Bible. So if you expect me to defend the Catholics you have reached a dead end.
    Actually, those that are called the apocrypha were tossed at Hippo, which set the 4 gospels as the only I believe. The Gospel of Thomas, Infancy Gospel and the Gospel of Mary are interesting reads. I would tell you that they are just as valid as many are on the same timeline as the current accepted gospels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Actually, i would look further into the other messiahs as well as the stories of Mithras, Horus and Sol Invictus.

    Actually, those that are called the apocrypha were tossed at Hippo, which set the 4 gospels as the only I believe. The Gospel of Thomas, Infancy Gospel and the Gospel of Mary are interesting reads. I would tell you that they are just as valid as many are on the same timeline as the current accepted gospels.
    Actually no, the Apocrypha was added at Hippo not at Nicea.
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    an interesting point at least, imo....look at chapters 18 and 19 of genesis. it tells the story of sodom and gomorrah....what is interesting is that the term sodomy was derived from the city of sodom.

    this is a clue, at least in my humble opinion of what GOD might think, after all he destroyed sodom.
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    There are 60 known, non-canonical, gospels. They are fascinating. Different early Christian sectors followed different gospels. Even if you dismiss them as heretic, it still shows us what early Christianity was facing and how the dominate form came to being.

    <--Just read the Gospel of Judas. VERY interesting IMO.

    Edit: there is a documentary on the Gospel of Judas on Netflix that I just discovered a few days ago. I would recommend reading the gospel first, but I believe the documentary does a good job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CincyKiller45 View Post
    There are 60 known, non-canonical, gospels. They are fascinating. Different early Christian sectors followed different gospels. Even if you dismiss them as heretic, it still shows us what early Christianity was facing and how the dominate form came to being.

    <--Just read the Gospel of Judas. VERY interesting IMO.
    I have read most of them. Paul spoke of a few heresies he put to bed. The Gnostic were one of many. in my opinion this doesn't disprove Jesus's existence or Deity. It just proves that even back then the devil was working to confuse people.
    You should read my gospel, the gospel of the Bodybuilding Salsa Dancer. Very interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn

    I have read most of them. Paul spoke of a few heresies he put to bed. The Gnostic were one of many. in my opinion this doesn't disprove Jesus's existence or Deity. It just proves that even back then the devil was working to confuse people.
    You should read my gospel, the gospel of the Bodybuilding Salsa Dancer. Very interesting.
    I don't believe it disproves Jesus' existence either. Nor do I believe the devil inspired the non-canonical gospels.

    Clearly, early Christianity offered a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices catering to the unique needs of people with differing levels of spiritual development. I believe there is a lot we can learn about modern Christianity through the writings of the people during its formation.

    In the 'forbidden' gnostic gospels that have begun to emerge from antiquity, we find we have actually been divinely invited to seek the truth and ask questions, because the truth is never marred of harmed by questions. Asking questions only serves to make the truth shine brighter.

    I'll look into that gospel Joe. I, as well, have a gospel. It's title: The Gospel of the Powerlifting NASCAR Driver. It's a good read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CincyKiller45 View Post
    I don't believe it disproves Jesus' existence either. Nor do I believe the devil inspired the non-canonical gospels.

    Clearly, early Christianity offered a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices catering to the unique needs of people with differing levels of spiritual development. I believe there is a lot we can learn about modern Christianity through the writings of the people during its formation.

    In the 'forbidden' gnostic gospels that have begun to emerge from antiquity, we find we have actually been divinely invited to seek the truth and ask questions, because the truth is never marred of harmed by questions. Asking questions only serves to make the truth shine brighter.

    I'll look into that gospel Joe. I, as well, have a gospel. It's title: The Gospel of the Powerlifting NASCAR Driver. It's a good read.
    LOL!!! Thats good
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post
    Actually no, the Apocrypha was added at Hippo not at Nicea.
    I didnt say it was added at Nicea. Please reread. Actually the 325 council of nicea was interesting because it was there that the diety of Jesus was decided upon, again at the behest of Constantine. If you have not already done so, I would recommend you look into the religious transformation of the empire under Constantine and the reasoning for it. Not exactly what you think it is. I have studied Constantine and his reign for some time. Very difficult time to be a Roman Emperor for sure.

    In terms of Paul putting things to bed, that is actually funny.

    In terms of the devil, I am always curious how a theist views Lucifer, the light bringer. Take a look at cultures all throughout the ancient world and you will see that the serpent is revered for being a bringer of knowledge (ex. Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan). However, in the judeo-christian world, the serpent is hated for that very thing. Very interesting that the judeo-christian faiths would be against knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I didnt say it was added at Nicea. Please reread. Actually the 325 council of nicea was interesting because it was there that the diety of Jesus was decided upon, again at the behest of Constantine. If you have not already done so, I would recommend you look into the religious transformation of the empire under Constantine and the reasoning for it. Not exactly what you think it is. I have studied Constantine and his reign for some time. Very difficult time to be a Roman Emperor for sure.

    In terms of Paul putting things to bed, that is actually funny.

    In terms of the devil, I am always curious how a theist views Lucifer, the light bringer. Take a look at cultures all throughout the ancient world and you will see that the serpent is revered for being a bringer of knowledge (ex. Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan). However, in the judeo-christian world, the serpent is hated for that very thing. Very interesting that the judeo-christian faiths would be against knowledge.
    I reread and you said they were tossed. I guess one can assume you meant tossed in but you can't blame me for thinking it meant tossed out. There are NT manuscripts that go as far back as 120 AD, 205 years before Nicea that have Jesus's Deity. Do you have a special master copy of the minutes of the Nicea meetings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post
    I reread and you said they were tossed. I guess one can assume you meant tossed in but you can't blame me for thinking it meant tossed out. There are NT manuscripts that go as far back as 120 AD, 205 years before Nicea that have Jesus's Deity. Do you have a special master copy of the minutes of the Nicea meetings?
    lol...sarcasm? always lends to friendly debate.

    By the same token, there are countless gospels that show his lack of divinity. I believe it was the infancy gospel. Have to double check.

    Also, Simon of Peraea was considered divine as well, until he was killed by the romans
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    lol...sarcasm? always lends to friendly debate.

    By the same token, there are countless gospels that show his lack of divinity. I believe it was the infancy gospel. Have to double check.

    Also, Simon of Peraea was considered divine as well, until he was killed by the romans
    What countless gospels? At the Council of Nicea all the gospels were collated that were accepted as gospels. The heretical ones you speak of were well known forgeries.
    Who the heck is Simon of Peraea and where is he in the Bible (I mean the real Bible not these forgeries you speak of).

    But speaking of sarcasm, you should check out my gospel since you like gospels so much. Its called the Gospel Of The BodyBuilding Salsa Dancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBrooklyn View Post

    What countless gospels? At the Council of Nicea all the gospels were collated that were accepted as gospels. The heretical ones you speak of were well known forgeries.
    Who the heck is Simon of Peraea and where is he in the Bible (I mean the real Bible not these forgeries you speak of).

    But speaking of sarcasm, you should check out my gospel since you like gospels so much. Its called the Gospel Of The BodyBuilding Salsa Dancer.
    Wow. This is my last post here as since you seem to be running out of information, you resort to nonsense.

    Simon was another Messiah at the same time. Do a little research... Might be helpful.

    Forgeries? Lol.. Now I am definitely gone from this. Good day
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Wow. This is my last post here as since you seem to be running out of information, you resort to nonsense.

    Simon was another Messiah at the same time. Do a little research... Might be helpful.

    Forgeries? Lol.. Now I am definitely gone from this. Good day
    I've given you a wealth of information and answers, we're just going in circles. If you don't believe that Jesus is the Christ that's fine, what do you want from me? Was Simon mentioned in the Bible? Then I really don't care. The guy from Waco Texas claimed to be a Messiah too should I do research on him? And I guess this means you are not interested in my Bodybuilding Salsa gospel? BTW, learn how to take a joke.
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    What?! A religious discussion ending in an argument? That's weird.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    What?! A religious discussion ending in an argument? That's weird.
    LOL!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post

    In terms of the devil, I am always curious how a theist views Lucifer, the light bringer. Take a look at cultures all throughout the ancient world and you will see that the serpent is revered for being a bringer of knowledge (ex. Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan). However, in the judeo-christian world, the serpent is hated for that very thing. Very interesting that the judeo-christian faiths would be against knowledge.
    Thanks, I did not know this but it makes total sense now.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Im still for Phil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14
    Forgeries? Lol.. Now I am definitely gone from this. Good day
    I lol'd as well.
  

  
 

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