Faster atrophy and more growth....
- 09-30-2003, 02:16 PM
Faster atrophy and more growth....
Any of you guys notice your muscles atrophy a lot faster than normal? Say for example when you guys take a week off or so, you lose strength, size, etc?
And say, if you train a group every 7 days, like the day before or even 2 days before your next go, do you notice your looking flat again and and NEED training again, but you still force yourself to wait till that scheduled day?
Just looking for real-world feedback here. From all that I read, of course ones muscles shouldn't atrophy that quickly, perhaps their is an exception?
I noticed a couple of times that I trained every 5 days due to my ****ed up shedule now, I actually did better and looked better. I just thought it was a fluke though and didn't follow up on it. Although I worked with a lot less volume each time. And working with less volume in the past and currently, I still feel that faster atrophy rate while using that 7-day split versus the 5.
- 09-30-2003, 07:34 PM
I know EXACTLY what you mean!
2 things I've noticed really helps with this though.....
1. Using (more) compound lifts on the days I train. On back day for example, 1 week I do deadlifts, the following week I do powercleans. Since heavy compound lifts naturally hit more muscles than isolation exercises, this alone goes a long way for me to avoid the problem.
2, Diet.... making sure I get 3 squares plus 3 protein drink supplements EVERY day. More often than not, if I deflate a bit it's because of my schedule, and missing a meal or two. One of the best mid day meal suggestions (from IA/DC)that also really helps me is to grab a burger or 2 early afternoon.
- 09-30-2003, 07:57 PM
Yeah, I hear what you mean. But I already do all that though. Maybe if I switched to a 4 day split instead of a 3, I would notice it a bit less. But I still might try out a 3 day split every 5 days. I don't think it would hurt to at least try it one more time. I gained back all of my strength and size since when I lost a lot of it due to all that experimenting without much luck, but haven't made much progress still outside of that.
We will see. Any other feedback?
09-30-2003, 08:36 PM
Try to concetrate on concrete results. Like strength. What you see in the mirror is as much a perception as anything else. The way your muscles look is going to be determined by alot of different factors, not just training splits. If your using measurements to judge your training and diet effectivness, try to measure at the same point in your split everytime and gauge success on that. Your muscles shouldn't atrophy in a weeks time.
09-30-2003, 08:43 PM
I think in the long run it's more motivating to go for just size for a while, then concentrate on strength, then back. Some people say just go for strength for 3 years but I find that this is difficult because you're not growing size real fast in a LOT of cases.
And this is twofold adaptation VS one straight adaptation factor of strength.
EDIT : And I think working out often is very good for size. It may or may not be sub-optimal for strength gains though.
09-30-2003, 09:44 PM
Thanx fellas. I hear what your saying LOCO about perceptions. Thats a good point, but it seems as though it happens all the time right about 2 days before my next go on that bodypart(s).
Its been so long since I have missed a meal that I can't even remember the last time I missed. Honestly, I don't think I could let myself miss one unless I was puke sick. So, I know its not my diet, and I'm eating a ton like always.
Luna, for my size, you wouldn't believe what I put up on bench. In fact, thats for most excercises besides deads. I just don't have all that strength that some guys do, but definately have the size. Hey bro, hit me up with a PM if you don't mind, and maybe I can get more info.
10-01-2003, 07:33 AM
Here is a cut and paste example of Dogg crapps work out, which some of you obviously agree with. I am switching to this workout, which I've used before when I finish my cycle. I am currently on a 4 day split as i do a little more volume while 'on', but not much more.
Day one would be Monday and would be
Day two would be wenesday and would be
Day three would be friday and would be
Day four would be the following monday and would be
and so on wenesday friday monday wenesday etc.
Your hitting every bodypart twice in 8 days. The volume on everything is simply as many warmup sets as you need to do- to be ready for your ONE work set. That can be two warmup sets for a small muscle group or five warmup sets for a large muscle group on heavy exercise like rack deadlifts. The ONE work set is either a straight set or a rest pause set(depending on your recovery abilities again). For people on the lowest scale of recovery its just that one straight set---next up is a straight set with statics for people with slightly better than that recovery----next up is rest pausing (on many of the of movements) with statics for people with middle of the road recovery on up.
Three key exercises are picked for each bodypart (hypothetically we will use flat dumbell bench press, incline smythe bench press, and hammer press)---USING ONLY ONE OF THOSE EXERCISES PER WORKOUT you rotate these in order and take that exercise to it's ultimate strength limit (where at that point you change the exercise and get brutally strong on that new movement too). That can happen in 4 weeks or that can happen 2 years later but it will happen some time (You cannot continually gain strength to where you eventually bench pressing 905 for reps obviously)---Sometime later when you come back to that original exercise you will start slightly lower than your previous high and then soar past it without fail---
10-01-2003, 10:20 AM
I digress for a moment, but........
1. LunaHotel gets my vote for sexiest avatar.....
2, locoangmo has the most hilarious, laugh out loud avatar I've seen anywhere.
I give you both karma for those!
Great job guys
10-01-2003, 02:28 PM
Looking in the mirror and deciding you are not training enough is a surefire recipie for overtraining. Some days you will "look" flat. So What? Worry about how things are going in the gym first and foremost. The rest WILL follow
Dogg will tell you that the twice in 8 days dose NOT usually work for those with average recovery. If you read the active thread in it's entirety you will see how he modifies it for guys that don't make it on the twice in 8. But yes, if you can recover fast enough to make the twice in 8 work, and many guys can, it's da bomb!
Luna is right that periods of size training can be benificial from a motivational standpoint. But I think it's a pretty useless endevour UNLESS there is at least a fair strenght base there. I recently had a guy that was squatting like 150 for 8 reps that wanted to do a size routine. This is ****ing ludicrous. Unless a trainee is squatting in the 300's benching at LEAST 225 for reps, and deadlifting in the 300-400's doing size work is just a useless detour to where you really need to be.
10-01-2003, 06:19 PM
I wonder if that trainee is me :P
10-02-2003, 11:57 AM
Iron addict, twice a week per bodypart may be doable for a normal person because Scorpio has pointed out only 1 work set for 1 exercise.
10-02-2003, 03:06 PM
Plenty od people are able to pull it off.....and plenty of people fall flat on their faces trying. Please go read that thread in the entirety:
And you will see where Dogg has MANY people, including himself at this point doing a lessor frequency.
10-05-2003, 11:17 PM
I think a 3 day split, legs.....push.....pull will work for most people.
10-06-2003, 12:55 PM
What I do is a 4day split with only one set of bodypart done twice a week, the other two workouts done once a week. Then the following week will have a different set of bodyparts done twice a week. Like this
week 1 - ABCA, week2 - BACB, week3 - ABCA. Legs(C) only one a week as I take that long to recover.
10-06-2003, 08:26 PM
Just a little recap here bros. I have been doing something like Scorpio is doing above--thx bro.
I've recently switched my split to two halfs, w/ only 1 exc./BP, and to failure. However, I'll only be training each BP twice every 10 days instead of 8.
It'll go like this: 1st-Sun; 2nd-Tues; 1st Fri; 2nd-Sun; 1st-Wed; 2nd-Fri; 1st-Mon; etc., etc.
Of course I won't have actual scheduled training days, but I train at home so it will work quite well.
Already I have gained 10lbs. on various excercises, plus a bit of size. So yes, ones muscles can atrophy faster than some, I'm proof. I should have just listened to my body to begin with in relation to this, but didn't because I've ALWAYS had low volume and was wary of overtraining form the start. I had already gained my beginner gains and now its just time for more shock to my body in order to continue growing. How long will I need it? I dunno, but noone should NEVER rely on one type of training protocol for the rest of his/her life no matter what type it is. There's always gonna be a need for a change up regardless.
Luna, when this fails, your my go-to guy with that new routine of yours.
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