Cardio Discussion

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    Cardio Discussion, Your Thoughts


    Although many here may hate it (myself included), it can't be ignored completely!

    My main question is: How many of you subscribe to the old way of fat burning cardio: low to moderate intensity for longer periods (30 minutes to an hour), vs. high intensity cardio for around 20 minutes?

    We all know by now that both have ups and downs, so which do you think:

    *is more effective for burning fat
    *develops endurance
    *is more effective for strengthening your lungs
    *have other general health benefits or negatives

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    Re: Cardio Discussion, Your Thoughts


    Originally posted by jweave23
    Although many here may hate it (myself included), it can't be ignored completely!

    My main question is: How many of you subscribe to the old way of fat burning cardio: low to moderate intensity for longer periods (30 minutes to an hour), vs. high intensity cardio for around 20 minutes?

    We all know by now that both have ups and downs, so which do you think:

    *is more effective for burning fat
    *develops endurance
    *is more effective for strengthening your lungs
    *have other general health benefits or negatives
    From My old school what I know if you walk a mile or run a mile the calorie burning will be the same, what change is the time to do the activities. Now high intensity can put a lot strain to a lot of body parts, so moderate can be good.
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    With high intensity cardio, you raise your metabolic rate for the rest of the day, get cardio training in along with it, and save time.
    •   
       

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    Well, here's a study praising the benefits of high intensity, shorter cardio sessions:

    HIGH-INTENSITY INTERVAL TRAINING:

    THE OPTIMAL PROTOCOL FOR FAT LOSS?

    James Krieger

    As exercise intensity increases, the proportion of fat utilized as an energy substrate decreases, while the proportion of carbohydrates utilized increases (5). The rate of fatty acid mobilization from adipose tissue also declines with increasing exercise intensity (5). This had led to the common recommendation that low- to moderate-intensity, long duration endurance exercise is the most beneficial for fat loss (15). However, this belief does not take into consideration what happens during the post-exercise recovery period; total daily energy expenditure is more important for fat loss than the predominant fuel utilized during exercise (5). This is supported by research showing no significant difference in body fat loss between high-intensity and low-intensity submaximal, continuous exercise when total energy expenditure per exercise session is equated (2,7,9). Research by Hickson et al (11) further supports the notion that the predominant fuel substrate used during exercise does not play a role in fat loss; rats engaged in a high-intensity sprint training protocol achieved significant reductions in body fat, despite the fact that sprint training relies almost completely on carbohydrates as a fuel source.

    Some research suggests that high-intensity exercise is more beneficial for fat loss than low- and moderate-intensity exercise (3,18,23,24). Pacheco-Sanchez et al (18) found a more pronounced fat loss in rats that exercised at a high intensity as compared to rats that exercised at a low intensity, despite both groups performing an equivalent amount of work. Bryner et al (3) found a significant loss in body fat in a group that exercised at a high intensity of 80-90% of maximum heart rate, while no significant change in body fat was found in the lower intensity group which exercised at 60-70% of maximum heart rate; no significant difference in total work existed between groups. An epidemiological study (24) found that individuals who regularly engaged in high-intensity exercise had lower skinfold thicknesses and waist-to-hip ratios (WHRs) than individuals who participated in exercise of lower intensities. After a covariance analysis was performed to remove the effect of total energy expenditure on skinfolds and WHRs, a significant difference remained between people who performed high-intensity exercise and people who performed lower-intensity exercise.

    Tremblay et al (23) performed the most notable study which demonstrates that high-intensity exercise, specifically intermittent, supramaximal exercise, is the most optimal for fat loss. Subjects engaged in either an endurance training (ET) program for 20 weeks or a high-intensity intermittent-training (HIIT) program for 15 weeks. The mean estimated energy cost of the ET protocol was 120.4 MJ, while the mean estimated energy cost of the HIIT protocol was 57.9 MJ. The decrease in six subcutaneous skinfolds tended to be greater in the HIIT group than the ET group, despite the dramatically lower energy cost of training. When expressed on a per MJ basis, the HIIT group's reduction in skinfolds was nine times greater than the ET group.

    A number of explanations exist for the greater amounts of fat loss achieved by HIIT. First, a large body of evidence shows that high-intensity protocols, notably intermittent protocols, result in significantly greater post-exercise energy expenditure and fat utilization than low- or moderate-intensity protocols (1,4,8,14,19,21,25). Other research has found significantly elevated blood free-fatty-acid (FFA) concentrations or increased utilization of fat during recovery from resistance training (which is a form of HIIT) (16,17). Rasmussen et al (20) found higher exercise intensity resulted in greater acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC) inactivation, which would result in greater FFA oxidation after exercise since ACC is an inhibitor of FFA oxidation. Tremblay et al (23) found HIIT to significantly increase muscle 3-hydroxyacyl coenzyme A dehydrogenase activity (a marker of the activity of b oxidation) over ET. Finally, a number of studies have found high-intensity exercise to suppress appetite more than lower intensities (6,12,13,22) and reduce saturated fat intake (3).

    Overall, the evidence suggests that HIIT is the most efficient method for achieving fat loss. However, HIIT carries a greater risk of injury and is physically and psychologically demanding (10), making low- and moderate-intensity, continuous exercise the best choice for individuals that are unmotivated or contraindicated for high-intensity exercise.

    1. Bahr, R., and O.M. Sejersted. Effect of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise O2 consumption. Metabolism. 40:836-841, 1991.

    2. Ballor, D.L., J.P. McCarthy, and E.J. Wilterdink. Exercise intensity does not affect the composition of diet- and exercise-induced body mass loss. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 51:142-146, 1990.

    3. Bryner, R.W., R.C. Toffle, I.H. Ullrish, and R.A. Yeater. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:68-73, 1997.

    4. Burleson, Jr, M.A., H.S. O'Bryant, M.H. Stone, M.A. Collins, and T. Triplett-McBride. Effect of weight training exercise and treadmill exercise on post-exercise oxygen consumption. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 30:518-522, 1998.

    5. Coyle, E.H. Fat Metabolism During Exercise. [Online] Gatorade Sports Science Institute. http://www.gssiweb.com/references/s0...20000006d.html [1999, Mar 25]

    6. Dickson-Parnell, B.E., and A. Zeichner. Effects of a short-term exercise program on caloric consumption. Health Psychol. 4:437-448, 1985.

    7. Gaesser, G.A., and R.G. Rich. Effects of high- and low-intensity exercise training on aerobic capacity and blood lipids. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 16:269-274, 1984.

    8. Gillette, C.A., R.C. Bullough, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure in response to acute aerobic or resistive exercise. Int. J. Sports Nutr. 4:347-360, 1994.

    9. Grediagin, M.A., M. Cody, J. Rupp, D. Benardot, and R. Shern. Exercise intensity does not effect body composition change in untrained, moderately overfat women. J. Am. Diet Assoc. 95:661-665, 1995.

    10. Grubbs, L. The critical role of exercise in weight control. Nurse Pract. 18(4):20,22,25-26,29, 1993.

    11. Hickson, R.C., W.W. Heusner, W.D. Van Huss, D.E. Jackson, D.A. Anderson, D.A. Jones, and A.T. Psaledas. Effects of Dianabol and high-intensity sprint training on body composition of rats. Med. Sci. Sports. 8:191-195, 1976.

    12. Imbeault, P., S. Saint-Pierre, N. Alméras, and A. Tremblay. Acute effects of exercise on energy intake and feeding behaviour. Br. J. Nutr. 77:511-521, 1997.

    13. Katch, F.I., R. Martin, and J. Martin. Effects of exercise intensity on food consumption in the male rat. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 32:1401-1407, 1979.

    14. Laforgia, J. R.T. Withers, N.J. Shipp, and C.J. Gore. Comparison of energy expenditure elevations after submaximal and supramaximal running. J. Appl. Physiol. 82:661-666, 1997.

    15. Mahler, D.A., V.F. Froelicher, N.H. Miller, and T.D. York. ACSM's Guidelines for Exercise Testing and Prescription, edited by W.L. Kenney, R.H. Humphrey, and C.X. Bryant. Media, PA: Williams and Wilkins, 1995, chapt. 10, p. 218-219.

    16. McMillan, J.L., M.H. Stone, J. Sartin, R. Keith, D. Marple, Lt. C. Brown, and R.D. Lewis. 20-hour physiological responses to a single weight-training session. J. Strength Cond. Res. 7(3):9-21, 1993.

    17. Melby, C., C. Scholl, G. Edwards, and R. Bullough. Effect of acute resistance exercise on postexercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J. Appl. Physiol. 75:1847-1853, 1993.

    18. Pacheco-Sanchez, M., and K.K Grunewald. Body fat deposition: effects of dietary fat and two exercise protocols. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 13:601-607, 1994.

    19. Phelain, J.F., E. Reinke, M.A. Harris, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:140-146, 1997.

    20. Rasmussen, B.B., and W.W. Winder. Effect of exercise intensity on skeletal muscle malonyl-CoA and acetyl-CoA carboxylase. J. Appl. Physiol. 83:1104-1109, 1997.

    21. Smith, J., and L. McNaughton. The effects of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise oxygen consumption and energy expenditure in moderately trained men and women. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67:420-425, 1993.

    22. Thompson, D.A., L.A. Wolfe, and R. Eikelboom. Acute effects of exercise intensity on appetite in young men. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 20:222-227, 1988.

    23. Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 43:814-818, 1994.

    24. Tremblay, A., J. Després, C. Leblanc, C.L. Craig, B. Ferris, T. Stephens, and C. Bouchard. Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 51:153-157, 1990.

    25. Treuth, M.S., G.R. Hunter, and M. Williams. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 28:1138-1143, 1996.

    This can be found at: http://www.wsu.edu/athletics/strength/hiit.htm
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    Another article in the middle: basically seeming to ignore post workout effects of high intensity IMO, but not entirely incorrect I guess:

    Amount of cardio required to lose fat?


    Question: I just read an article in a bodybuilding magazine that said all you need to lose fat is three days a week on a cardio machine for twenty minutes. It said that low intensity, long duration cardio workouts are not the best way to lose fat and that a high intensity twenty-minute workout is more efficient. Is this true? I don't have a lot of time to work out so it would be great if I could get my cardio done in only twenty minutes.

    Answer: Getting in great shape by spending only twenty minutes a day, three days a week sounds great. There are plenty of "guru's" out there claiming that "Eight minutes a day is all it takes" or "Just twenty minutes a day is the solution," but when things sound too good to be true, they usually are. If your goal is better health and a decent level of cardiovascular fitness, then three days of cardio a week for 20 minutes IS all you need. However, if your goal is to lose a lot of body fat as quickly as possible, then you're probably going to need a lot more than 20 minutes (unless you're one of those genetically blessed few with a fast metabolism who loses fat easily.) I have never seen anyone lose a lot of fat by doing just three days a week of cardio. On the other hand, I have never seen anyone do six days a week of cardio for 45 minutes and NOT lose a lot of body fat.

    It's true that moderate to high intensity cardio such as interval training is more effective than low intensity cardio: The higher the intensity, the more calories you burn. The problem is that you can only burn so many calories in 20 minutes. The more calories you burn in a one-week period, the more fat you'll lose. If you do a high intensity interval workout 3 times a week for 20 minutes on a Stairmaster or bike at a high intensity, you might burn about 400 calories. That's a lot of calories for a twenty-minute workout. But it only adds up to 1200 total calories burned in one week. If you doubled your time to 40 minutes and you did six days per week at a moderate intensity, you would burn about 600 calories per workout. Do that 6 times per week and that's a total of 3600 calories in a week - three times as much as the high intensity interval workout! Combine the cardio with a 500-calorie per day deficit and that's another 3500 calories for a total deficit of 7100 calories per week. There are 3500 calories in a pound of fat, so that's two pounds of fat you'd lose in one week!

    What I would suggest is that you approach your cardio training in cycles depending on what your goals are. If you just want to maintain your current level of body fat and stay healthy, I'd recommend 20-30 minutes of aerobic activity 3 - 4 times per week. If your goal is maximum fat loss, then I'd recommend 30-60 minutes 5-7 days per week. Once you reach your desired percentage of body fat, then you could drop down to just 3 - 4 days a week for 20 minutes to maintain your low body fat level. I agree that low intensity cardio is not the best way to lose fat. You should always keep your intensity moderate to high, provided that you can maintain it for the desired duration. If you reach 45-60 minutes 6 times per week and you're still not losing fat, then the problem is definitely your diet, not your workout program.

    This article can be found at: http://www.femalemuscle.com/q_a/question16.htm
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    this sucks...i just wrote a mamouth explanation and got disconnected by aol dial up. (sigh) aight, will write again later.
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    Anabolic Aerboics

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

    by Eric Satterwhite

    Over the years, there are certain laws and rules of bodybuilding that have accumulated over the years. And they have amassed an un-written bible of bodybuilding. Bulking 3:16 says, "Lift big, Eat big, and Get big". Certain things like, eat more and grow; if you want to gain muscle, you are going to have to gain some fat; and of course, never do cardio. Well, things change. We get smarter and consequently we get bigger. Every year, there are new techniques in training, diet and supplementation that allow us to take our physiques to the next level. I think many of the "Old School" laws have hung around much longer than they should have. We have to learn to accept that there won't always be one best way to do something. You don't eat your eggs raw anymore, do you? We now have whey protein and there's really no need to do it anymore.

    <B>Cardio: Yea or Nay</B>

    Well there's one more thing that should go. And that's the law that says cardio will kill your gains in muscle. Cardio should be a part of every program whether your goal is maximum muscle or serious fat loss. In fact cardio, if implemented intelligently, can even augment your effort in the weight room! That's right, you don't need to be come a slob to put on muscle. You can stay lean and even lose that spare tire in the process. Is it really possible to build muscle with out 6,000 calories a day?? You bet your sweet ass it is [7,14,17,18,20,26]! And even more interesting, it happens in young, healthy people who have been training for years[15,26,27]. Its really a matter of how you go about it and how you manipulate your diet to maximize you bodies internal workings. This first article is going to focus on just how cardio can help grow muscle.

    First we need to realize that simply increasing caloric intake does not lead to muscle mass [26,33]. We can all agree that the types of calories (ie. Protein, carbs, fat) play a much bigger roll. Its also been widely accepted that keeping glycogen stores high is a determining factor in the rate of growth. This is why many bodybuilders find it necessary to consumer more carbohydrates than some endurance athletes. This is where cardio, and more specifically intense cardio comes into play. A protein molecule called, GLUT4, transports glucose. It basically sits on the surface of cells. The more you have the more glucose can be carried into muscle cells. High intensity aerobic work greatly increases the amount of the transporters [21]. Intense aerobics also creates the same catabolic state and 3 hour nutritional window of opportunity as does weight training [13,25]. This is the first down fall of many bodybuilders. How many of you out there actually supplement a cardio session exactly the same as weight training?? That's what I thought. And this response stays elevated above normal resting conditions for literally days [21,22].

    <B>Insulin</B>

    <IMG src="http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/jeremyinsulin.jpg" align=right> However, you can't get any glucose into a muscle cell with out the presence of insulin, the king of anabolic hormones. If you don't control your insulin all day, every day, you are basically shooting a hole in the boat you're sitting in [21]. Both aerobic and heavy weight training increase insulin sensitivity [11], so in the long run, less carbs are needed to reach optimal levels of glycogen stores. There is also a strong correlation between the amount of insulin secreted and the rate of protein synthesis [28,29]. And, surprise, surprise, insulin responses are much higher to the initial dose of carbs after intense exercise [15]. However, the longer you are inactive, those high rates of synthesis drop off quickly with ever hour that passes [30]. So for those of you who lift on a 3-day split, you may be wise to slip a short intense cardio session on those off days. And if you are someone who goes to lift twice a day, it would also be wise to make one of those times a cardio session instead of more weights. By lifting two times a day, you are setting yourself up for disaster. It seems that with every weight training session on a given day, the catabolic hormone response is amplified [25]! But overall cortical (the catabolic hormone) levels stay very low in people who go once a day, every day [15]. In fact, its been shown that people who incorporate 3 days of weight and 3 days of cardio gain more lean mass, and even with a negative nitrogen balance [26]. As much as a 4% increase in dry muscle. Not, fat free mass, not weight, not lean mass, pure stinking muscle. And a loss of 5% body fat ta-boot [27].

    <B>Growth hormones and IGF-1</B>

    The most promising aspect of cardio work is its effect on the two remaining hormones that are paramount in muscle growth, growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I. Now, there has been some debate as to whether or not GH is really anabolic and increases muscle mass. Well let's say for argument's sake that it isn't. But one thing is for sure, its metabolic offspring, IGF-I sure as hell is [2,3,8,9]! We all know that stacking on the heavy weights increases these two hormones rather effectively [1], but not many think of cardio doing that as well. In fact, cardio is just as effective as the heavy weights [19,15,31]. GH whether or not it is actually active in muscle growth is irrelevant when you know that it is the hormone that stimulates the release of IGF-I [32]. And it appears that as the intensity of the cardio increases, so does the amount of GH [31]. And to top it all off, if for some unknown reason you decide to do more than one cardio session a day, the release of GH is magnified with every time [19]. What exactly is "intense" cardio? Well roughly 85-90% or your VO2 max, or heart rate [26]. If you can go for more than 20 continuous minutes, it simply isn't hard enough. The goal of intense cardio is to not so much burn off the 400 calories in the session, but to let your body do that as it tries to "fix" it self after the ass whipping you just dished out. The shorter your sessions, the less chance you run of hitting the catabolic wall [25]. However, the effects of IGF-I on muscle seem to be "local", meaning it has to be produced by, or introduced into the muscle [4]. And because contracting muscle has an insulting-like action (you probably call it the "pump"), all the extra movement from the cardio will be drawing more IGF-I in to cells. So it would be wise to find some type of cardio that uses a lot of different muscle groups.

    So to bring this to a close, doing cardio during a "bulking" phase to stay lean or lose some extra fat will only magnify your efforts in the gym.<IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satterclock.gif" align=left> Cardio increases your ability to store glycogen with less carbs and calories, it conditions our body to suppers catabolic hormones for longer periods of time and it not only sets the muscle building stage buy producing an abundance of anabolic hormone, but it keeps the process going at a high rate 24/7.

    However, all of this means squat, unless you play your "nutritional timing" cards right. And in the next article, I'll explain how to stack the deck in your favor.


    <CENTER><B>CLICK HERE FOR PART TWO!</B></CENTER><B>References</B>

    1. Marcas M. Bamman, et. at., Mechanical load increases muscle IGF-I and androgen receptor mRNA concentrations in humans Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 280: E383-E390
    2. Adams, G. Role of insulin-like growth factor-I in the regulation of skeletal muscle adaptation to increased loading. Exerc Sports Sci Rev 26: 31-60, 1998.
    3. G. R. Adams and F. Haddad The relationships among IGF-1, DNA content, and protein accumulation during skeletal muscle hypertrophy J Appl Physiol 1996 81: 2509-2516
    4. Gregory R. Adams and Samuel A. McCue Localized infusion of IGF-I results in skeletal muscle hypertrophy in rats
    5. J Appl Physiol 1998 84: 1716-1722.
    6. Challen M., et. at., Protein metabolism in insulin dependent diabetes millitus J. Nutri. 128 pp323S 1998.
    7. Angus,SD. et. al. Dietary composition and physiological adaptation to energy restriction Am J. Nutri. 71(4) pp901-907 2000
    8. Jones, RDL, et. al. use of a leucine clamp to demonstrate that IGF-I actively stimulates protein synthesis in normal humans Am. J. Physiology. 267 pp. E 596-598.
    9. Rolp et. al. IGF-I stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in the awake ratermissive role of insulin and amino acids. Am J. App Physiol. 270 1996 pp E60-66
    10. Lewis, M.I., et. at. IGF-I and/or growth hormone preserves diaphram muscle fiber with moderate malnutrition. J. App. Physiol. 85(1) 1998 pp 189-197.
    11. Maretta, J., et. al Fuel oxidation during exercise in middle aged men : Role of training and glucose disposal. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise v 34 no3 Mar 2002. p. 423-9
    12. Lewis, JB., et. al Effect of intermittent high intensity exercise on gastric emptying in man. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise v 33 no8 Aug 2001. p. 1270-8
    13. Maximizing post exercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures Am J Clin Nutr 2000 72: 106-111
    14. Influence of exercise training on physiological and performance changes with weight loss in men ; Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise v 31 no9 Sept 1999. p. 1320-9
    15. William J. Kraemer, et. at. Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation J Appl Physiol 1998 85: 1544-1555.
    16. Demling RH &amp; DeSanti L. Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers. Annals of Nutr.&amp; Metab.44(1):21-29 2000.
    17. Bryner RW, et al. Effects of resistance vs aerobic training combined with an 800 calorie liquid diet on lean body mass. J Am.Coll. Nutr. 1999 18(2):115-21
    18. RB Kreider, et al. Effects of ingesting supplements designed to promote lean tissue accretion. Int. J.Sport Nutrition 6.3, 1996:234-236.
    19. J. App. Physiol 83(5) pp. 1756-61
    20. Broeder CE, t al. The effects of either high-intensity resistance or endurance training on resting metabolic rate. Am J Clin Nutr. 1992 55(4):802-10.
    21. Int J. Sport nutri and exercise Metab. v11(1) pp 109-32
    22. Eur. J. App. Physiol 86(5) 411-7
    23. Med. Sci in Sport and Exercise 30(4) pp518-22
    24. Int. J. Sport Nutri and Exer Metab 11(4) pp S71-77
    25. Eur J. App. Physiol 86(4) pp 315-21
    26. J. App Physiol 85(2) 1998 pp695-700
    27. J. App. Physiol 88(6) 2000. pp2251-2259
    28. Diabetes: 28 pp18-26
    29. Am J. Physiol Endocrinol. Metab 258(21) pp E92-97
    30. Int. J. Sport Nutri and Exer Metab. vol11(4) pp S164-169
    31. J. App. Physiol 87 pp498-504
    32. S aladin, K. Anatomy &amp; Physiology: The unity of form and function 2nd Ed. p644
    33. Fern et. al. Effects of exaggerated amino acid and protein supply in man. Experimentia 1991;47:168-172
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    Part 2


    In the previous article I went against the grain and explained how cardio can increase gains in muscle and keep unwanted body fat to a minimum in the process. The key word there being, can. There are a number of things that need to be addressed before you can get the maximum results.

    <B>CORTISOL</B> The first is cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone secreted in response to stress (in our case exercise). Cortisol's main objective is to liberate energy from tissues for use during these periods of stress . It doesn't have a preference on what tissue it gets it from, but it does seem to favor muscle tissue rather heavily . The amount of cortisol released is directly related to the intensity or degree of the stress. It seems that after about 20 minutes of high intensity work, cortisol levels shoot through the roof. With that said, for high intensity (85-90% VO2 max) cardio to have the most benefit in its muscle building/fat burning properties, sessions should be kept under 20 min.

    <B>SUPPLEMENTATION</B> This is where so many go wrong. As I stated in the previous article, cardio creates the same anabolic state and window of opportunity as heavy weight training. Sucking back a few grams of glutamine just won't cut it. To make this as effective as possible, a pre &amp; post work out supplementation protocol should be followed, very much in the same fashion as most do for weight training sessions. First and fore most is our good friend, insulin. Keeping insulin up in the period surrounding a cardio session is critical. Having Insulin and carbohydrates present before and during a cardio session seems to slow the muscle destroying action of cortisol, epinephrine and norepinephrine. This aspect single handedly slows the start of Gluconeogenesis. Gluco = sugar/blood sugar, neo = new, genesis = formation or creation. It means the formation of blood glucose from non - carbohydrate sources, or in most cases, muscle protein. This is exactly what we don't want. Secondly, protein should be added to the mix. High intensity cardio uses a lot of muscle groups and makes use of a lot of the type II fibers. The same ones we use during weight training. This action alone will be drawing the glucose and amino acids directly to every last one of them. Cardio accelerates the rate of protein synthesis and break down. If you don't address which protein is added, its going to hurt you in the long run (6,7). This is what most bodybuilders attributes as "burning up muscle". Creatine should also be included into the mixture as well. Although the exact reasons aren't fully understood, creatine has the unique ability to preserve and even accelerate muscle growth in times of caloric restriction and a negative nitrogen balance . I would be lead to believe its has much to do with its cell volumizing properties which leads to greater protein synthesis. If you are one who uses creating before and after weight training an does cardio in the evening, I would recommend that a small 2g dose before and after should be enough. Or 5g only to the post work out supplementation. <IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/eas/lglut.gif" align=right> Glutamine is another supplement I suggest to add in at this time. Aside from its anti-catabolic properties and its ability to accelerate protein synthesis, an 8g dose replenishes glycogen stores with out added carbohydrates. And is even more effective when carbohydrates are included . So, we have dextrose, whey protein, creatine, and glutamine so far. This is very similar to the supplement composition that not only minimizes cortisol secretion and lactic acid build-up over continual training, but it also maximizes the Anabolic hormones. Namely, we are taking advantage of insulin, IGF-I and Growth hormone 7. I think that it's very important to get these nutrients in at this critical time and as soon as possible. Secondly I think its important that the protein and carbohydrates be liquid in nature. Solid foods simply take longer to digest in the stomach. The longer we need to wait for the nutrients to be delivered to the small intestine for absorption, the more tissue breakdown can occur. More over, after intense training, the rate that material is actually dumped into the small intestine from the stomach is much slower. So liquid supplements are highly sought after at this time. I would also recommend taking some anti-oxidants after cardio as well, like vitamin C, E, beta-carotene, alpha lipoic acid, NAC, etc. Most free radicals are nothing more than un-paired Oxygen molecules. So I think it is safe to say aerobic exercise will create more of them than resistance training. You're probably thinking a meal replacement that would fit the bill at this time, but there is only one problem. Most MRP's are comprised mainly of casein, which takes a very long time to digest. Whey hydrolysates, isolates and concentrates, in order of preference, are what should be taken in the period immediately after any work out. The longer it takes the nutrient to get into the blood, the more muscle breakdown can occur. Whey is a much faster "acting" protein than casein.

    <B>DIETARY NEEDS</B> First and foremost is the protein issue. As the work load increases, so does the need for proteins. Both strength and endurance athletes are instructed to intake amounts of protein well above normal requirements. When you combine the two, the demand is even higher. Throughout the data I have read there was one common occurrence. The people who did both cardio and weight training seemed to gain more muscle and loose more fat, but they were in a negative nitrogen balance (6,7). Don't skip on the protein folks, simply adding calories from fat and carbs will not, I repeat, will not increase gains in muscle (6,8). Imagine how much muscle these people would have put on if they had consumed enough! The second, and maybe the most important part, is the composition of the rest of your diet. More specifically, how to use the glycemic index in the correct manner to maximize your results. There are a number of articles on this web site on the GI. My advice is to read them, know them and love them! But, I can direct you to one of the most complete lists I have ever seen at http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm. Most of us understand the importance of carbohydrates that are High on the GI after a work out. But many don't realize just how important foods low on the GI are during the rest of the day. Just simply by adjusting your food intake to Low GI foods outside of the 3 window of opportunity, you will have not only greatly reduced muscle tissue break down, but also increased fat oxidation. And a diet with a large amount of low GI foods increases nitrogen retention even during periods of restricted carbohydrate intake (18). <IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satterchart.jpg" align=right border=0> As I talked about in Part I, fat oxidation is already accelerated from the high intensity cardio . But combining that with low GI foods and you are basically throwing napalm on the metabolic fires. This is an example of what a Bodybuilders "Food Guide Pyramid" should look like. We keep the refined and high GI foods up and the top of the pyramid because they are only for those critical times around workouts. Next on the list is mod GI carbs and starches such as, oatmeal, pastas, some certain forms of rice, barely, etc. I like to include these in the end of the 3-hour window. Next comes the protein and supplement portion. Milk, meats, poultry and of course Whey. Don't exclude milk. I'll have to refer you back to Big Cat's article on milk. But I have also found that milk raises the level of circulating IGF-I and helps to prevent some forms of cancer. So drink up.


    <DIV align=right>Back to Top<IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bluetop.gif" border=0></DIV>Click here to see the GI of the foods you are eating I know many people like to use whey only for post workouts because its assimilated so fast and leaves you hanging. But, if taken WITH meals and not as a meal replacement its extremely effective. By taking whey with meals, it ensures the presence of insulin and puts you in an absorptive state. Doing so almost guarantees that the why will be channeled to muscle tissue rather than oxidized as an energy source. I also include other supplements in the category. Things like creatine, glutamine, CLA, fat burners, and so on are very beneficial and are a bigger part of the overall diet than people realize. <IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sattervege.jpg" align=left> Last on the list are Low GI foods. Vegetables in their many forms are very low on the list and should be used often. And you can virtually eat as much as you want. In fact, many of them have a negative caloric value. Meaning it will take your body more energy to digest them than is actually in the food. This is kind of a way to trick your body into thinking its getting more calories than it actually is. However, lets get one thing straight. We aren't trying to overly restrict calories here. In fact that could be detrimental to the entire process. The data shows with out a shadow of a doubt, that people who participate in high intensity weight training and cardio, use the GI properly are leaner and have more muscle when they ate their normal healthy diets (6,7,18)! &nbsp;Even leaner than people who "diet" in the true sense by limiting calories (20). I've included MRPs to the bottom rung of the latter because they are a staple in a sound diet and are very effective in fat loss endeavors. They are also low on the GI. I know maltodextrin is common in most and is regarded as being HI on the list. However, I took it upon my self to test it out personally. I have a little blood glucose meter and took some test readings. My fasting level is about 85mg/dl. A single MRP raises it to about 125 mg/dl. On the other hand eating potatoes or rice will elevate it close to 190mg/dl. So I think they are a much safer bet.

    <B>THE TESTOSTERONE ISSUE</B> <IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sattersnuts.jpg" align=right> Single bouts of high intensity have been known to elevate testosterone levels post exercise. However, as we continue to train day after day, levels drop off continually with every session (7). So it's our job to fix the problem with our diet. This is why I've included essential fats/oils to the bottom rung of the pyramid. The amount of testosterone is directly correlated to the amount of saturated and monounsaturated fat in our diet. Polyunsaturated fats seem to have a negative impact . And saturated fat really has no function other than storage, so there's no need to try to include it in your diet. So keep the olive oil, nuts, and flax seeds handy. But I would include CLA and maybe an EFA supplement as well.

    <B>SO NOW WHAT?</B> In the last article I show that it is in fact possible to loose body fat while gaining muscle mass. The biggest obstacle is to forget what the numbers on the scale say. The goal of a "bulking" phase is go gain the maximum amount of muscle in the shortest amount of time. This article gives you an idea of how to manipulate your diet to do just that. And you now have more reason to do cardio during you bulking phase than not. No I'll give a couple examples of how to go about pulling all of this information together.




    <TABLE>


    <TBODY>


    <TR>


    <TD width="50%"><B>Three Day Split Routine</B></TD>


    <TD><B>Train Every Day / Twice A Day.</B></TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>6:30am</B> - High GI breakfast (commercial breakfast cereal), whey &amp; milk.</TD>


    <TD><B>6:30am</B> - High GI breakfast 1(commercial breakfast cereal), whey &amp; milk.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>8am</B> - Pre-work out (weights or cardio). Dextrose, Whey, Creatine, Glutamine (drink this during warm up sets).</TD>


    <TD><B>8am</B> - Pre-work out. Dextrose, Whey, Creatine, Glutamine (drink this during warm up sets).</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>9am</B> - Post work out. Same as Pre + anti-oxidants.</TD>


    <TD><B>9am</B> - Post work out. Same as Pre + anti-oxidants.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>9:30</B> - Solid food meal +High GI starches.</TD>


    <TD><B>9:30</B> - Solid food meal +High GI starches.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>10:30</B> - MRP.</TD>


    <TD><B>10:30</B> - MRP.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>12:00</B> - Moderate GI foods + Whey protein.</TD>


    <TD><B>12:00 </B>- Moderate GI foods+ Whey protein.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>Low GI meals for the rest of the day.</B></TD>


    <TD><B>Low GI meals.</B></TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>Night Time</B> - Follow my first article "Building Muscle 24-7"</TD>


    <TD><B>4:30 </B>- 13 min Hi intensity cardio.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD></TD>


    <TD><B>4:45</B> - Dextrose (optional), creatine, glutamine, whey + anti-oxidants.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD></TD>


    <TD><B>5pm</B> - Low GI Meals.</TD></TR>


    <TR>


    <TD><B>*</B> On a 3 day split, you might lift <B>Mon, Wed, Fri</B>. And do Cardio <B>Tues, Thur, and Sat</B> (if you are ambitious). The main idea is to employ this method for every work out cardio or weight training.</TD>


    <TD><B>Night time </B>- Follow the strategy I outlined in my first article "Building Muscle 24-7"</TD></TR></TBODY>
    </TABLE>

    Also "cycling" the amount of cardio you do, in volume and intensity, seems to further stimulate the fast twitch (the big ones) muscle fibers to grow . So it may be a good idea to not only include a wide variety of cardio machines and activities to hit all the muscle groups, but to also take a break every so often. If you are doing 3 sessions regularly, near the end of your training blocks, cut back to 2 for a week. The next week cut back to 1, then the last week just do 1 moderate/ low intensity session, then take an entire week off of training all together. One final suggestion is to keep the meals in the hours after your first training session very low in fat to keep things moving smoothly and quickly. A light sprinkle of crushed flax seeds on your solid food meals should rally be enough at this time. Of course, these are just samples and suggestions. You can modify, as you'd like. But this illustrates the type of timing that is involved in making it all work. This approach to training and diet produces an internal environment conductive for maximum muscle growth. I know that the idea of cardio building muscle probably goes against everything you know. But there's to much evidence to deny it. I know it may be even harder to believe that doing as little a 13-15 min of it is going to benefit you in your fat burning and muscle building efforts. I think the biggest mental obstacle is the fact that everyone misses the big picture. It is true that we are not going to use fat as a primary fuel source during high intensity cardio. However, for the next 24 or more hours fat will be oxidized at a much higher rate. This "after-effect" simply doesn't happen with normal cardio. So now you need to ask yourself, "would I rather burn fat for 30-45min, or burn fat for the next 24 hours?"

    <B>DEFINING INTENSE CARDIO</B> <IMG src="http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satterlungssmall.jpg" align=right border=0> I've stressed the point of 85% to almost 95% of VO2 max, but that's something that is very hard to determine. What I think is a better concept is the "Comfort Zone". This is what normal cardio feels like, you know you can keep it up for 40 min or more if you really wanted to. Intense cardio leaves the comfort zone in the dust. The health industry refers to it as an oxygen deficit. You're lungs start burning and your body feels like its on fire. You have to stumble your way back to the car when your done. Much like John described in his response. Not everyone like that feeling and its something you need to get used to. As bodybuilders, wear not endurance athletes, thee is no reason to do the lower intensity, long and drawn out cardio work anymore. This is very similar to lactic threshold work, in fact you will probably cross that point at one time or another and have to stop briefly. But that's what it should be like. You've probably lived by the "No pain, no gain" adage for a long time, you might as well apply it to cardio.

    <B>REAL WORLD RESULTS</B> So, all the science mumbo-jumbo doesn't float with you? You want to see how it works with some "real" people? Well. Before writing this article, I had advised a number of people to construct their diets and work out plans in such a manner. Here is a sample of the responses I received:

    Zach - 3yrs. Previous training:<I>"I used to eat a ton of meat and the cheapest whey protein I could find, with as little carbs as possible and a lot of fat (came with the red meats). My daily caloric intake had been about 2400 to 2800 per day. I have in the past year switched my meat intake to only white lean meats (chicken breast, turkey beast, etc....). My protein supplementation, which had previously been all cheap brands of whey protein, has been switched to hydrolyzed whey protein isolate. I have added a great deal of carbohydrates, low GI except right after working out at which point I opt for higher GI carbs. I have cut out almost all fats and have supplemented with CLA. My current daily caloric intake is about 1600-2000…"</I> I used to lift Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. Each workout would last me about 1 and 1/2 hours. Each body part was worked twice per week. I also used to aim for positive failure at about 8-12 reps, stressing perfect form not allowing my body to move like it wanted to. I used to always perform a great deal of isolation exercises for muscles like my biceps and triceps. I have since switched to training each body part once per week, lifting 6 days a week, with short 1/2 hour sessions… Cardio has been the biggest change. I used to perform 3 super long cardio sessions on the days I didn't lift. Generally distance runs of anywhere from 10-20 miles. I have since switched my cardio to 6 days a week, all the days I lift, and do about 20 minute sessions of the highest intensity I can maintain in that time frame… Prior to making the switches I have listed above, despite my efforts I was soft looking, albeit fairly strong. I had a good deal of body fat, blaming "genetics" for not being able to achieve a six-pack. Despite my young age, I had been unable to pack on the muscle like many of my peers who at this age could seemingly train any way they wanted and get results. I stayed with about 18 percent body fat for what seemed like forever. After the switches I gradually made over time, I went from 18 percent body fat to and 9 percent body fat, gained 5lbs in total weight while achieving the six-pack that I thought "genetics" had been denying me. I went from envying the guys my age who seemed like they could do everything wrong and make progress, to the guy that they came to for training advice… (that's a 20lb increase in lean body mass for those of you with out a calculator). <B>Comments:</B> The most important things I have learned is that genetic limitations do not really exist. The basics that are so widely accepted amongst bodybuilders are the true limiting factors that have been so inappropriately dubbed "genetics". Training right gets you results, if your not getting results fast, or not getting them at all, your not training right, it is that simple… The second greatest discovery I have found is that I haven't any need to go through a uncomfortable bulking phase in which I stuff myself, and a horrible cutting phase where I starve and lose 1/2 of my hard earned muscle!! Bodybuilding is about gaining muscle and losing the fat, why not do both at once!!! Even eastern philosophy believes that nothing in extremes is lasting, moderation is everything. Why go for super high cal diets and super low cal diets when a moderate to slightly low cal diet is so much kinder on your stomach and mood."

    Jim with over 20 years of training had to say: <I>"This past Dec. I was disgusted with myself. I weighed 235 and size 38 pants were getting tight."</I> <B>Background:</B> From age 18 to 35 I trained 4 to 6 days (reps as high as 20 but mostly 8 to 10) a week and was in very good shape. Then I got married, had a kid and let myself go. About two years ago I had a serious back injury from training to hard too fast and not stretching enough. A year ago I tried doing cardio more than weights and lost 20 pounds. At 217 I was lighter than I had been in many years, But when I looked in the mirror I just didn't look that great. Back to December, I knew there had to be a way for a busy person like myself to get results fast. I searched on the internet and found this site and you. I have been training 4 days a week with the 4-6 rep range. I have had tremendous strength gains. When I started I couldn't to the 90 lb dumbells once and now I can do the 100 lb for 6 (I have out grown the dumbbells in my gym will have to use barbell). I know you advise against doing cardio (rowing, interval running/walking on treadmill, stairmaster) after lifting but I do it any way and it has been effective for me. As far as supplementing, I use whey protein and creatine and that is it. Diet is better than it has ever been. No junk food. Eat every 3 hours and immediately after waking up. <B>Current statistics:</B> I am 40 years old, 6' 2" and I now weigh 230lb and can fit in size 34 pants although my legs are too big most of the time for that waist size. I look better at 230 than I did at 217. My wife loves the changes I have made in my body. She has just ordered a personalize license plate for me." - 1BUFDAD.

    <B>Name: Brad Year training: 2</B> <B>Background:</B> <I>"Well, I started to gradually gain a significant amount of weight every year. During the course of my freshman year I realized I wanted to lose weight and sadly went at it the every wrong way. I would not eat a healthy breakfast, fasted at school, and basically stuffed my self when I got home. I did not loose any weight through out the whole year."</I> <B>June 2001 - September 2001</B>: I committed myself to lose weight at all costs. And again without proper guidance I slipped into my bad habits. I hardly ate anything, did endless sit-ups, and ran around my block religiously. In the end after the damage was done. I was 5'9", lost over 30lbs and 4 inches in my waist. Needless to say I lost a significant amount of fat and muscle mass due to this escapade. I was a walking skeleton. I was so thin I could see my ribs through my chest and back for the first time. <B>Oct. 2001- Present</B>: After finding this Message board I decided to start bodybuilding. I started to eat healthy for the first time in my life. 6 small meals a day. Low glycemic meals throughout the day and high GI meals after working out. With the help of a friend I started to love working out for the first time in my life. Everyday I would visit this message board(@home&amp;school) and read your posts. I took all the information you contributed on this board and basically based my life around it. Everything from high intensity cardio( 10-13 minutes of pure fun , the time I eat( every 2-3 hours), how much I eat( 198g carbs, 280g protein), when I lift (3:00pm), how I lift(4-6rep range, 5 days a week training 2 muscle groups a day), to just plain out how I look at my self. I have been supplementing with creatine, hydrolyzed whey isolate and glutamine (bracketing method), Nytro-Pro40 meal replacements, &amp; Dymetadrine Xtreme. My gains within these few months have been Phenomenal!! My arms gained 1.5 in. at least. And I gained 40lbs+ to my max bench so far! <B>Current:</B> I've put on over 20lbs of lean mass and kept a 32in waist!!! I am really excited about the progression in the years to come. Thanks Eric for showing me the way to my new passion in life."

    John, Age: 26

    <I>"I think the biggest thing I've taken away from you is the intensity principle and a true understanding of failure. Unfortunately, I can't tolerate the short, intense cardio sessions you recommend - they just tear my insides apart, and I feel like I want to double over and die half-way through; and not in a good way either - but at least after trying a couple sessions, I know I can push myself a little harder on the longer, less intense sessions."</I> As far as lifting goes, I've been able to break through a few slumps by lifting more intensely. I can make size and strength gains again when it comes to biceps. I've been increasing weight every session for squats and forearm curls - I'm still waiting to reach the true weight I can work with for these exercises, but I need to give my back a chance to adjust for squats, and my wrists a chance to adjust for forearm curls to the increased weight. Though I'm still waiting for these weakest links to catch up, I have been pushing my self with more intensity to reach failure so that the exercises are still effective for the muscles they're supposed to work. "I've been able to push myself harder and force myself to really work for true failure - except flat bench, for some reason this has gone from being one of my favorite exercises to one of my least favorite; I think I've just allowed the fear of dropping it on myself to creep into my subconscious, and I need to drive it out somehow. I'm still relatively new at this, so in some aspects, I'm still fumbling around; but I have picked up a lot of information from you to continue experimenting and fine-tuning with my plan." So there is a little sample of what just a few months of application of my theory can accomplish. If you are truly committed to building the most amount of muscle, high intensity cardio work seems to be surfacing as the as a factor just as influential as nutrition. Now with all of that said, you can no longer you a bulking phase to exclude cardio from your training. If you are going to exclude it, at least be honest and say you're just too lazy. The one thing that came up in all of the responses and more so in the last one, was the one thing I feel is vital to success in any training style. And that is the mindset and mental approach you take in everything you do. In my next couple of articles, I would like to share so of the mental strategies I shared with these people that have given them the ability to enjoy every aspect of their training and life. And for a bodybuilder to say he honestly does cardio for fun is something to take notice of! So take this article as a plan of attack in your bodybuilding journey. Its time to abandon some of the old school principles and see what your body is really capable of. And as I always like to say, when its all said and done, you'll have "Cuts To The Bone". <B>References</B> <B>(1) </B>Saladin, SK, Anatomy &amp; physiology: the unity of form and function 2nd ed. (2001) p671.
    <B>(2) </B>Hedge, G. A., H. D. Colby, and R. L. Goodman. Clinical Endocrine Physiology. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 1987 [MEDLINE].
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    <B>(6) </B>McConnel,G.,K., et. al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on glucose kinetics and muscle metabolism during intense exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 2000 ;89(5). Pp1690-1698
    <B>(7) </B>Brett A. Dolezal and Jeffrey A. Potteiger Concurrent resistance and endurance training influence basal metabolic rate in nondieting individuals J. Appl. Physiol. 85 (2) 1998; pp 695-700.
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    <B>(9) </B>Ann. Nutr. Metab. 44(1) 2000; pp 21-29. Creatine supplementation affects muscle creatine during energy restriction. Med. Sci. in Sport Exerc. 33(1) 2001; pp 61-68.
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    Well I dont have a fancy article, just here to discuss but cardio to me is like weight training, your diet, etc. People cant tell you "this is what you should do", "this is the best way". "you'll get better results like this". Why? Because they have no idea. Everyone's body is different, I think thats established. So what kind of cardio should you do to maximize cardiovascular health and burn unwanted fat? I dont know. Its up to you. What works for you, might not work for me. So I can tell you "Go out and do 10 minutes of 15 yard shuttles, followed by a 2 mile run, 3 days a week" Sure I can tell you that because thats all I need and thats what works best for me. Sure of routines work better for the general population than others, thats also been established. And what I do might work for you also, but there might be other programs that work better. Theres studies showing to do ligth intensity cardio because if your cardio is high intense you will be using anaerobic movements that do not require oxygen, rather the using up your glycogen stores for energy. Then on the other than you have people who say "high intense cardio not only burns fat but will speed up your metabolism throughout the remainder of the day". Both of these statements are true.....so the only advice I can offer is: Switch it up. One week to high intense cardio the next moderate, and so on, until you decide what works for you.
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    Hey now, I just remembered reading this artilce a few months back and it seemed to apply. Seriously though, from what I've read it seems like the coritisol issue is would be something to avoid by doing 20 min or less of high intensity. Obviously different things work for different people but are the some scientific truths that hold true period for BB'ers over the standard "get in shape" mentality?
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    This is an issue I thought over for a while.&nbsp; There has been a lot of different veiws but after reading those articles by Satterwhite a few months back I was I decided to run my cardio the same way as my lifting, intense.&nbsp; From experience that worked best.&nbsp; Really helped with fat loss and also kept it from being a pain a long pain in the *ss and instead a chance to challange my abilities.

    The most interesting part for me, being a swimmer, was the increased performance in my swimming competitions(not to say I take them all that seriously).&nbsp; Swimmers generally train with long workouts.&nbsp; Its common for swimmers to be in the pool 4-6 hours a day and I had been trained to do atleast 2 hrs a day when training with my team.&nbsp; But after reading several studies on athletic traing, some HIT articles, and reading about&nbsp;some new&nbsp;swimmers who were duing well I changed my belief.&nbsp; During the offseason, when I was traing alone, every time I dragged myself to the pool I kept my time in the water under 30 min and intense as hell using all sorts of intensity factors.&nbsp; Well when I actually back to the competition season after a few months on my own, I expected to suck like hell from lack of actually training for competition.&nbsp; But to my surprise I was better than ever.

    I also think intense expercize can be benefical to the time in the gym.&nbsp; IMO it help improve muscle fuel supply, lung capacity, ming muscle connection and such.&nbsp; It can also be benefical by creating another window of hightened insulin sensitivity to fill the muscles with the nutrients necessary for growth.

    So as far as I am concerned if I am gonna force myself to do cardio, I am gonna do it in what i belive is the most efficent way.&nbsp; By the way nice, reads above and some good posts I think this is a pretty decent discussion.
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    Let's keep it going here bros. Any other thoughts, comments, articles, etc?
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    i personally have tried both. low for an 1hr and then i went high and saw results. i did both for a period of 6 months to compare them, also diet stayed the same, and no added supps. high intensity seems to work for me alot better so i stuck with it. i do it 3 x a week. but all people are diff, and that might be why we all have diff results. also i believe that diet has alot to do with it also.
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    i do HIIT 3x a week now and i do moderate intesity cardio for an hour 3x a week too....the combonation of the two of them are really good.

    What do you guys do for your HIT cardio?? I just do it on the bike.
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    HIT used to include taking my old track spikes out with a timer and getting some serious **** done with an old track team bud, where I am right now has a track but no surface, so had to switch to running shoes. I personally never had an affinity for long duration low intensity anything. Generally mixing it up between sprint days outside on the track (lucky to be near one) a few days one week and some moderate/moderate-heavy indoor work on a bike or a personal fave, stair step machine. Alternating in this way generally has the quickest and best effects on my heart and lungs as well in terms of resting heart rate etc.
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    I think high intensity is the way to go, which is what much of recent research is showing.

    I think it is especially important for bodybuilders, because of the cortisol factor. After bulking, you want to do everything possible to keep your hard-earned gains, including minimizing cortisol by limiting the length of both workouts and cardio.
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    Good discussion so far, thanks guys!

    As I thought I would, I'm leaning even further to the shorter, high intensity cardio. I guess we could say it's good to throw some longer, lower intensity stuff in the mix a couple times a year at most, but nothing to make a big deal of. I am going to keep looking for health benefits of both, but it seems for our purposes we know which way to go. Any other comments?
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    I do high-intensity 12 minute cardio, every other day. I even do cardio when bulking as I find I can still gain weight like this, but the ratio of muscle to fat is alot higher.
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    Jweave- However, this belief does not take into consideration what happens during the post-exercise recovery period; total daily energy expenditure is more important for fat loss than the predominant fuel utilized during exercise

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    First I say do cardio if you can in the morning when your glycogen stores are pretty much depleted, thats a given If you can't I agree with YJ, different strokes for different folks.

    &nbsp;

    What you have to keep in mind is there are 24 hours in the day, and the goal for fat loss is to keep your metabolism as high as possible for the full 24 hours, not just the 20 minutes of your High intensity or moderate intensity cardio.&nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    Here is a good article on a type of cardio, that my cow plans to do on its fina cycle.&nbsp; ITs pretty interesting.

    http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=97

    &nbsp;

    I think it boils down to what your looking to get out of cardio.

    Are you looking to burn as many calories as you can DURING your cardio..or are you shooting to burn more total calories a day.

    either way you should lose fat, its simple.&nbsp; If I do cardio for an hour and burn 800 cals, thats fine but it might do nothing for overall, where as maybe I do shorter higher intensity sessions and burn 200 cals, but my metabolism stays higher for longer burning more total calories throughout the day.

    &nbsp; Almost forgot...if your diets not on...your wasting your time.

    h19
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    I do the basic wrestling Cardio of jogging for 30 mins and 20 sprints. Quite effective but im planning on HIIT cardio.
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    Unhappy i hate cardio


    i just now started doin cardio after bulkin...havent done any cardio since last sept. anyways, i'm startin with moderate intensity and after another week or so will go 3 or 4 days a week hi intensity. once weather gets warmer consistently i ride my bike alot so no need for any indoor stuff.
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    Re: i hate cardio


    Originally posted by msclbldrguy
    i just now started doin cardio after bulkin...havent done any cardio since last sept. anyways, i'm startin with moderate intensity and after another week or so will go 3 or 4 days a week hi intensity. once weather gets warmer consistently i ride my bike alot so no need for any indoor stuff.
    &nbsp;

    My plan also, when the weather gets nicer I will either jog or bike to my gym ..workout..then come back....

    The gym is about 2.5 miles or so from my house.&nbsp; That should do it.

    &nbsp;

    h10
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    Originally posted by jweave23
    Any other comments?
    Yeah, if you have access to a track and a buddy who likes to run, get a stopwatch and work on your times if you're doing high intensity. We do sprintwork, and it gives me 100 times the motivation when I'm actually trying to better myself in the speed/cardio aspect of the game. I get more done on the track, so I further my endeavors in the gym.
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    Re: Cardio Discussion, Your Thoughts


    Originally posted by jweave23
    Although many here may hate it (myself included), it can't be ignored completely!

    My main question is: How many of you subscribe to the old way of fat burning cardio: low to moderate intensity for longer periods (30 minutes to an hour), vs. high intensity cardio for around 20 minutes?

    We all know by now that both have ups and downs, so which do you think:

    *is more effective for burning fat
    *develops endurance
    *is more effective for strengthening your lungs
    *have other general health benefits or negatives

    HIIT cardio. 20 mins. I'll post a few studies, about it but longer then 20 minutes and catabolism occurs and cortisol levels sky rocket. Keep it under 20 mins and your fine. Also, it is more effective at burning fat as it creates a high metabolic boost.

    Take in a protein shake 2 scoops and glutamine before.

    Also it causes the same deprivation of nutrients as does a hard workout. So eat like you do post workout it's just like working out. Whoever thought you could grow during cardio!
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    Re: Re: i hate cardio


    Originally posted by hamper19


    &nbsp;

    My plan also, when the weather gets nicer I will either jog or bike to my gym ..workout..then come back....

    The gym is about 2.5 miles or so from my house.&nbsp; That should do it.

    &nbsp;

    h10
    i'm not much a runner but definitely do the bike to the gym...plus when i have to go to the store or whatever if i dont need alot i ride da bike for that too. and a nice benefit of it i realized last year is all the $$ i save in gas...so i can buy more 1test..
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    Amazing how everyone thought how HIIT cardio caused so much muscle loss a few months back but the new trend is now HIIT cardio. And I notice I have been losing a lot more fat while doing it as compated to moderate intensity for 30 mins.

    Every week new veins pop out, also high reps and HIIT cardio can also make veins larger and more efficent.
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    3-4 sessions a week 20-40 mins per session any more than that and your body starts to drop hard earned muscle. HIT an Max-OT aren't really cardio they are anaerobic training like sprinting which give all the positive benefits as Dyno stated. I like YJ's approach to cycle each style week to week and keep the body guessing.
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    Over the past summer I was doing a daily combination of HIIT and Long-duration cardio:

    I utilized my workplace for my cardio

    Through a normal day I would do, in the morning,&nbsp;25-30 minutes of lower-intensity cardio which included walking and/or jogging around my waterpark unstacking beach chairs (each weighing about 8-10 pounds or so). Then through the bulk of my day (10:00am to 8 or 9:00 pm) we (the LG's at the wave pool) would close the pool every other hour for 15 minutes, and thats when I would do some good HIIT in the pool once or twice a day.&nbsp; Then at the end of the day (9:00pm-10:00pm) I would be doing mad dashes around the park cleaning up trash, throwing beach chairs around, putting rental tubes away and other stuff.

    The reason my I like HIIT is this:

    for a quick reference see Muscle Fiber Types:

    http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...le+fiber+types

    I came to this conclusion (see below)&nbsp;after pondering why the lactic acid burn stays in the muscle for a while and then goes away during long distance events (i.e. my 1000 meter swim today).

    I just thought that in exercise the body has a priority or an order, if you will, of which muscle fibers it recruits during the different lengths of&nbsp;exercise.&nbsp; During my swim, in the first 100-250 meters or so, the "burning" was quite intense but I could not stop swimming because I was being timed. At around 300-500 meters the burning was less noticable, but it was still there. Then after 600-700 meters the burning was damn near completely gone: I was unable to feel any lactic acid inside my lats, delts, or even legs.&nbsp; So here's what I thought: the primary fibers being recruited are either the Type 2A or 2B (or both), hence the increased lactic acid burn. and feeling tired so soon.&nbsp; Then once the body realizes it has to go for a longer period of time it begins to recruit the Type 1 (endurance) fibers.&nbsp; I gather that this "switch" from the fast twitch (2A, 2B) to the slow twitch (Type 1) happens during the first 200-300 meters or so.&nbsp; Once the Type 1 fibers start being recruited, the lactic acid begins to be shuttled away from the muscles (hence the reduced burn after the 300 meter mark) and back to the place where all waste products get dealt with: the liver (i think).&nbsp; So the decreased burn begins to take place when the Type 1 fibers begin to contract.

    SO... During HIIT you are forcing your body to recruit almost every kind of muscle fiber it has (due to the order of things) and during the rest periods it gives the fast twitch fibers time to rest, and then they (the fast twitch fibers) get worked again during the next part of "high intensity".&nbsp; I personally think that HIIT&nbsp;is not only great for fat loss, but may also be beneficial for increased muscular growth.

    Yes, I came up with all of the above on my own (except for the muscle fiber types, YJ can take credit for that).

    &nbsp;

    LG.
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    Originally posted by Lifeguard
    ...I came to this conclusion (see below)&nbsp;after pondering why the lactic acid burn stays in the muscle for a while and then goes away during long distance events (i.e. my 1000 meter swim today).&nbsp;...&nbsp;
    Glad to see atleast someone else makes use of the water for cardio.&nbsp; Swimming is decent as hell for HIT cardio and with the right intensity aids it'll leave anyone in pain.

    I agree with you about the distance and lactic acid.&nbsp; The inital muscle requriment will be a higher percent II and the major source of energy will be supplied through glycolosis flooding the blood with lactic acid.&nbsp; Untill the krebs cycle can get under way and start flushing out the lactic acid and providing a alternate source of energy lactic acid levels will do its evil.

    By the way, how was your time for your 1000?&nbsp; I know my distance times arn't much and yet another reason I am proHIT cardio&nbsp;
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    Originally posted by weissmuller

    By the way, how was your time for your 1000?&nbsp; I know my distance times arn't much and yet another reason I am proHIT cardio&nbsp;
    My time was kinda ****ty: 23:30-24:00.... there abouts....

    BUT... I am proud of myself since I have never had to swim over 500 meters in my life, so swimming 1000 meters is a great accomplishment for me.

    &nbsp;

    LG.
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    While I really only do one 24 min cardio session, I do a lot of GPP work: such as sled drags, high rep arm snatches, etc. It really helps keep me from adding too much bodyfat, but as a powerlifter/strongman-wannabe I don't have to worry about my bf% excessively.
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    I like the effects on insulin sensitivity that HIC has. According to Eric's article it also "cleanses" insulin receptors in muscle. This will allow more glycogen to be sent to muscles when eating the same amount of food. Calories do not = muscle growth. Muscle glycogen and amino levels = muscle growth. More glycogen in the muscle will only do good for anabolic activity. IMHO.
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Theres studies showing to do ligth intensity cardio because if your cardio is high intense you will be using anaerobic movements that do not require oxygen, rather the using up your glycogen stores for energy. Then on the other than you have people who say "high intense cardio not only burns fat but will speed up your metabolism throughout the remainder of the day". Both of these statements are true.....so the only advice I can offer is: Switch it up. One week to high intense cardio the next moderate, and so on, until you decide what works for you.
    I never actually read this thread, just posted what I do. Revisiting it now I just want to make a few comments.

    Since I finished by bulking cycle last week, and am now cutting, I have switched to cardio 6 days a week, alternating between HIT via sprints and slow-go via walking on an incline. The results thus far have been encouraging, and my cutting cycle is off to an excellent start.

    As for what YJ said above, I totally agree with him regarding both of the statements being true. The combination is what really does the trick.


    Adding to what he said of aerobic/anaerobic work, here's where the HIT cardio wins. (this is all from memory, so if any of the numbers are wrong, please correct me).

    The body is much more efficient at obtaining energy through glucose via glycolysis, pyruvic acid oxidation,the Kreb's Cycle/Citric Acid Cycle, and the electron transport chain. Using these four processes (that make up the process of aerobic respiration) the body is able to make up to 36 molecules of ATP from 1 molecule of glucose.

    When you're doing HIT cardio, you're training is anaerobic, and the body's primary way of obtaining ATP to fuel the workout is via lactic acid fermentation. Through lactic acid fermentation, the body is only able to make 4 ATP molecules per molecule of glucose. This inefficiency is actually a GOOD thing when it comes to losing weight. Because the body can only make 4 molecules of ATP per molecule of glucose, more glucose will be utilized to fuel the exercise. Thus, your liver and muscle glycogen stores will depleted rather quickly, and you'll start tapping into body-fat. And once you're tapped into body-fat, you'll be burning that at a faster rate as well.

    Not only this, but at a high intensity, even if it were aerobic, you'd still need more ATP to fuel your workout than at the low intensity. So you end up burning even more fuel than before. Thus High Intensity wins here. This is also where people say the HIT gets it nutrient repartioning effect. Some of the food you eat afterwards will be directed to repleneshing liver and muscle glycogen, as well as being used in other cell processes to help rebuild any muscle tissue damaged during the work-out.


    That's my arguement for why HIT is better, but I gotta go do some other **** now, maybe tomorrow I'll post my reasoning behind why it's good to add low-intensity as well.
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    muh huh huh ha
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