See what you big boys think of this

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    See what you big boys think of this


    As you guys all know from when I posted my stats I weigh about 165 and am about 5'7 . During the summer I level out at about 8 % bf during the winter I weigh about 175 at 10-12%. Recentely i switched to an HIT routine to try and put on some weight. Before that I was doing a pretty basic 3 sets 8 to 10 reps 2 exercises per bodypart type split. ive been doing HIT for about 4 months now and I have gotten tons stronger. I went frm squatting 315 for 8 to squatting 405 for 8
    I went from benching 225 for 7 to benching 270 for 4
    i went from DLing 315 for 5 to Dling 385 for 5

    but I have put on almost no weight. I didnt really drop any bodyfat other than my normal summer cut at the beginning of the summer. Im back on my normal diet which is about 500 kcals over maintenence. Im off cycle right now but I am on creatine and Im getting 300-400g of protein per day. My split looks like
    M Bench 1 warmup 3 sets of 5 1 set Rest pause always increase either weight or reps(at least try)
    Squat 2 warmup 1 twenty rep set as heavy as I can

    W DL 5 by 5 Ii cant rest pause this I tried but I almost hurt myself I just try to increase every week
    Wide grip chins 4 sets of 5 1 set rest pause

    F Shoulder press(dumbells) 1 warmup 3 sets of 5 1 set rest pause
    squats sames as monday

    repeat


    diet looks like

    Wakeup
    6:00 ALA + ECA Run for 5 miles
    7:00 Protein shake 50 % whey 50% caseine ground oats 1 cup flax meal 2 tbsps 50g total
    9:00 4 eggs + meat
    11:00 ECA 1 chicken breast rolled oats 1 cup ( or brown rice)
    1:00 ECA preworkout shake 75% whey 25% maltodextrin 60g total
    WORKOUT followed by postworkout shake 100g whey + dextrose
    cardio 2miles with sprints followed by shake 30 g protein + 4 BCAA tabs
    2:00 post workout meal 2 chicken breast on oatmeal bread with mayo and tomatos
    4:00 small meal usually tuna fish
    6:00 dinner with family usually meat + potatoes if family is eating crappy I wont eat with them but instead have 1/4 lb lean ground beef burger on whole wheat bread or the equivalent piece of chicken
    8:00 usually about 3 glasses of milk
    10:00 last meal cottage cheese +fiber to slow digestion
    12:00 bed

    other supps 5 g creatine, 8 g calcium, 2000 iu vit e, 5000g mg vit c, mega man vitamin in morning before run, zinc before bed + occaisonally melatonin.


    Any critiques

    Yes I do cheat sometimes I do try to be as spartan as possible but we all know that we are human. Anyway I cant cheat to much since I rest at 8% bf.

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    no thoughts huh?
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    You weren't really clear with your goals here. Are you still trying to gain mass? Or have you begun to concentrate of losing the extra fat now?


    Let me know, and I'll get back to you.
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  4. iron addict's Avatar
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    I wont do the math for you so tell me what the overall protein gram count is and why you wake up and run 5 miles every day while trying to add mass? Then running 2 more miles and doing sprints. And your not growing hmmmmm lets see, why wouldn't you be getting bigger?!?!?!

    I can probably help you make those strenght gains equate to some mass gains. If you were doing it right you would already be bigger.

    Iron Addict
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    Yeah bro it seems like your burning a lot more cals then your consuming. You might be eating 500 over maintenence but with the running your way below that at the end of the day. Stop training for a marathon and the weight will appear. Late J
  6. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    You're 165 and you bench 270? Dude, that's a LOT of weight for a tiny guy like you! I find it fascinating that you aren't growing... No doubt, so do you

    1. You don't sleep enough.
    2. Is there a reason for such a humongous amount of calcium?
    3. Maybe your antioxydant intake is TOO MUCH
    4. There are almost no veggies in your diet. Add them. If you have the money, add organic foods. Don't ask me why. They're just so much BETTER
    5. I dunno if you really get 300-400g protein a day, but if you're not juicing, 250g is very, very probably way enough.

    The way I see it is with your lack of sleep, no veggies, excessive antioxydant consumption, and excess protein, your anabolic drive is simply cancelled.
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    BUMP on IA and jminis....



    Luna...i don't see how excessive anti-oxidant consumption and excess protein would "cancel" his "anabolic drive". If you'd be so kind as to delve, i'd appreciate.


    I agree with you on the lack of sleep though, as he could be suffering from elevated cortisol levels because of it.
  8. iron addict's Avatar
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    Luna,

    Not trying to bash you but, 250 grams of protein at his training level would be EXTREMELY LOW and would probably result in him being very catabolic, not that he is not already, but there are degrees of catabolism. I run into people all the time that are stuck as far as growth is concerned and put them on 2 grams per lb of bodyweight, clean or on gear and BAM! They start growing again. Try it and you will beleive.

    No veggies, no problem. I Have trainees that RARELY ever eat any veggies, and for the most part consume only protein and fat. Some of these guys are in the 250-300 lb range. There "anabolic drive" is surely not short circuited as a result. I did NOT say veggies were not healthful and shouldn't be eaten. Please don't not misconstrue this. I mearly stated they are not needed for awesome gains. There are essentiual proteins, there are essential fats. YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY ESSENTIAL CARBS, THEY DON'T EXIST!

    As far as excessive anti-oxident consumption goes. MEGA anti-oxident consumption is one of the absolutly best things you can do for increasing health, and yes helping with catabolism. ALWAYS MAX OUT ANTI-O's!

    Iron Addict
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    I consider fiber an essential carb. Espeacialy with that high amount of protein. Damn, you think 250 grams would be catabolic for him? Has anyone here found any studies that show this high of an intake in protein is needed? Just curious.
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    Originally posted by TooL
    I consider fiber an essential carb. Espeacialy with that high amount of protein. Damn, you think 250 grams would be catabolic for him? Has anyone here found any studies that show this high of an intake in protein is needed? Just curious.
    None have been conducted that i know of. Don't forget that a large portion the medical establishment believes that anything over the %DV of Protein (somewhere around 50 g.) will put you into kidney failure.
  11. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    Iron Addict,

    Excessive anti-oxydant consumption CAN be harmful. Remember that antioxydants are useful because they combat free radicals by reacting with them, thus cancelling the damaging impact of these free radicals. Excessive antioxydant consumption WILL impact many things negatively, simply because there are other, BENEFICIAL metabolic pathways that REQUIRE oxydation in order to function properly. Repairing tissue is one of those. PubMed won't help you there, but advanced biochem texts will.

    About essential carbs. You are absolutely right. There are no essential carbs. I have done extremely well on the Anabolic Diet, Di Pasquale style, for a long time, and I even eventually stopped the fiber. So then why veggies? I simply don't know. I don't know why, but they help a lot, especially organic veggies. There are NO studies on this, except of course about their micronutrient content, and even there, you may have the very valid argument that any good multi will compensate. Still, I urge you to test this before you throw it out as simple ranting. It DOES make a large difference, from eating starches to eating mostly good quality greens. Dunno why, but I do know that it does help.

    About protein consumption. This guy is already taking in more than 2 grams/lb and is *NOT* growing. So, are you going to put him on 3g/lb? Is he to keep on going in that direction until his food intake is 80% protein? I think *MAYBE* he needs the same amount of calories, but more "available" calories in terms of energy, not protein. In other words, he may be taking in so much protein that his caloric intake is a little "skewed" in that direction. Remember that anabolism requires protein AND energy to reconstruct the cells. Too much protein is also not enough carbs/fat for a given amount of calories and this *IS* detrimental to the overall anabolic drive.

    Of course I don't know for sure that this is the case. What I do know is that increasing protein intake is not ALWAYS the way to go, although I agree with you that high protein intake is extremely important. Still, 1.5g/lb is good for many guys...

    JMO
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    Just so you know I have ceased trying to lose weight at this point and have begun trying to lean bulk, I guess Im still kind of in summer keep all the fat off mode. When I am true bulking I do almost no cardio, just 20 minutes a day on the bike to keep the ticker going. I eat so much protein because A LOT of the big time trainer dudes online reccomend it. DC reccomends 2 * the weight you want to be in protein grams per day. I want to be 225 so I would like to get in 500 though its tough. IA your right Im doing to much cardio. I have however put on quite abit of weight in the past while still doing cardio and I really was just curious about the HIT routine. I have gotten tons stronger yet seen no increase in lean mass, is that normal? will thelean mass catch up when I start bulking in the fall? Should I drop the cardio now and start a true bulk mid summer? Just asking for opinion s and suggestions
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    As far as excessive anti-oxident consumption goes. MEGA anti-oxident consumption is one of the absolutly best things you can do for increasing health, and yes helping with catabolism. ALWAYS MAX OUT ANTI-O's!

    Iron Addict
    That's so true, the more the body's ability to fight and recover , the better chance it has to grow considering it has all the optimum nutrition and environment to grow.
  14. iron addict's Avatar
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    Luna,

    You stated:

    BENEFICIAL metabolic pathways that REQUIRE oxydation in order to function properly. Repairing tissue is one of those.

    Agreed, but anti-O's don't stop the oxidation, or the following oxidative processes from occuring, they just combat them after initial production. My understanding on the new models of this may be somewhat dated but all the current research read says large, even excessive amounts are extremly health enhanching and well as likely prolonging.

    This guys ant-O's are BABY amount compared to what life extensionist and LOTS of good Bodybuilers and athletes of all sports consume, myself included.

    I KNEW the carb part would not be taken in the proper context, that is EXACTLY why i wrote the part about the fact that I was NOT reccomending no veggies for an optimal diet. The discussion is about why this guy isn't gaining. Your thoughts on this are rhat lack of veggies are a large part of the problem. I absolutely KNOW large amounts of muscle mass is attainable without ever touching one. This is not IMO a factor in why the guy isn't growing. Everyone should eat their veggies. But if they don't they can still add mass along with the best of them.

    You stated:

    his guy is already taking in more than 2 grams/lb and is *NOT* growing. So, are you going to put him on 3g/lb?

    The guy weighs 165. 165 x 2 was 330 last time I checked, not the stated amount of 250 grams. Yes, someone with that much activity and the protein turnover that goes along with it should be on 2 grams per lb in my experience. I have put countless training that were already using a sound routine yet not growing and BAM!!! they start adding muscle again. I know and have exchanged info with many other personal trainers, and trainees that will tell you te exact same thing based on real world experience. It makes THAT much of a difference. i have most of the research work already done for an article about just this. When you see what actual protein turnover rates are in lifters and non-lifters you will understand.

    You also stated:

    Too much protein is also not enough carbs/fat for a given amount of calories and this *IS* detrimental to the overall anabolic drive.

    And I agree 100%, guys who try to get it all done with protein, or obscene ratios usually fail terribly.

    Again, I wasn't bashing you, just stating my different viewpoint.

    Iron Addict
  15. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    It's good to have a nice, healthy argument with a very knowledgeable trainer, Iron Addict. I appreciate it.

    He's taking 300 to 400 grams of P a day, 400 is 2.4 g /lb. Let's go for 350g as middle-of-the-road from the info he gave us. Thing is, maintenance for a 165lb guy is about 2500kcals. He's taking in 500 more, so that's 3000... I'm going by ballpark figures, because of the info submitted. 1400 cals from Protein in a 3000 cal diet is 47% protein... Nearly 50%!!!!! From 3000 cals, his max protein intake should be 300g... 250g is maybe a little low, then again, maybe not.

    Now, have you read research on enzymatic adaptations to nutrition? If so, you undoubtedly know how the enzymes responsible for gluconeogenesis (turning protein into carbs for energy) WILL be produced in larger quantities if the diet is too rich in protein. Adapting the body to burning protein for energy is NOT a good idea for a bodybuilder, obviously. That is the main reason why "too much" protein CAN be a problem. When a guy is juicing, he's taking in maybe 5000cals, heck 500g is his target for 40% P... Above 40% cals from Protein, he's out of balance.

    About the veggies. Take any bodybuilder who is eating a balanced diet, maybe 40% P 40% C 20% F, or 35-35-30 with most carbs coming from starches, and switch the entirety of starches for organic greens. Go ahead, do the experiment. He won't regret it. And NO I don't have a double-blind, placebo-controlled study with 500 subjects to back this up. We both know anecdotal evidence is more than sufficient when dealing with trainees.

    BTW I thoroughly enjoy your posts.
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    I just had to bump this post and reply that I am the real world evidence of switching to organic veggies for the majority of my carbs. It's much healthier and results in a much better physique.
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    maggmaster
    What is your HR during the morning run?
    5 miles in an hour will most likely burn off too much muscle.
    Try 30-40 minutes of light/moderate cardio @ 60-70% of your maximum HR only on non-training days.
    Stop doing the cardio after weight training - your body needs to recover after hitting the weights & your not helping by doing 2 miles of sprints.
    If your aim is to bulk, why are you taking in the ECA other than pre-cardio/workout?
    How much dextrose are you taking in for post-workout?
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    It was a lean bulk or an attempt at such
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    One quick question about your diet:

    Where is the fat?
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    Eggs have fat meat has fat fish oil IS fat I get my fat in.
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    I think IA and DC have stated it enough with proven results that studies can say one thing and reality say another...

    I'd listen to what IA or DC has to say and let that be like God's Word, because after the quick progress I've already made taking suggestions from the info they've given to us, I'll jump off a bridge if they say so They know what they're talking about and not a damn thing would convince me otherwise
  22. PC1
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    A lot of interesting and very well intentioned advice here. And admittedly some of what I'm going to say is a repeat.

    But come on, no such a thing as "essential" carbs? Fiber not "necessary"? For which, achieving minimal bodyfat % or overall health? Is colon health the sacrificial lamb for achieving a few % points less of body fat on a year round basis?

    Not just here, but overall generally, when guys start talking very matter of factly about something in absolute terms, or start posting satistics or blood assays, or quotes from "studies" in support of a position they're taking, it turns me right off. It becomes impossible to either corroborate or refute for many reasons, not the least of which is potential profit or even pollitical agenda of those who paid for the study or are espousing a particular view.

    The technical info is well and fine for the bio-chemist who understands a cascading chemical reaction at the micro cellular level, like blood clotting. Some of you may well be bio-chemists, or be well on your way to becoming one. God bless you, your work is important and I salute and encourage you. While I agree that knowledge is power, as a layman I find it a waste of time to try and weed out a wannabe who's merely throwing around quotes and study data.

    And with respect to what we're doing here, namely strength training and physique enhancement, we're all different in many ways and what works for some doesn't necessarily work for any one of us. So I take an albeit more blunt yet more practical approach.

    My 3 distant observations Magg, for what they're worth:

    1. 6 hours of sleep isn't nearly enough for someone doing all that you are, even if you're in your 20's. You already know that your body produces most of its hormones at night and that's when you grow. You appear to be focusing a lot of time and effort on training and diet, yet you're neglecting this critical component of your overall health and training regimen?

    2. Micronutrients and fiber we assimilate from fresh fruit and vegetables probably aren't available to us in any other food or supplements we eat. Working in 3-5 servings a day are healthy to us in the long run, and any concern about calories or carbs from those sources is unwarranted in the grand scheme of our overalll diets, unless you're a diabetic or have some other problem.

    3. From what you've provided here Magg, it sounds to me like you would benefit from periodizing/cycling your anerobic/aerobic conditioning (either with or without PH/AS). And you might just be trying to do too much overall, although kudos to you on your bench press strength at your body weight.

    If all else fails, take a week or 2 off from training

    Best of luck,

    Be well
    Last edited by PC1; 08-29-2003 at 09:42 AM.
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    I think in addition to all the great diet advice/discussion, the first step to putting on weight is to stop running and stop taking the ECA. Some guys like YJ advocate cardio while massing but most (including myself) don't. Even of those that do they don't recommend as much as you are doing. Its easier to just divide and conquer. Mass, gain the fat that comes with it, then bust your ass to get the fat off. Its more effective to do one at a time in my opinion.

    Also, there are other forms of training than HIT. I wouldn't do any type of training for 4 months straight. Your body will definately have adapted by then. Other types to consider are maxOT, HST, and GVT. All great forms of training and great at helping w/plateaus.

    J
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