Range of motion
- 02-20-2007, 12:55 PM
Range of motion
Was wondering what everyone thinks of this in all aspects, importance, etc
When looking at excercises which recruit the most muscle fibers it apears the tension is always towards the begining of the rep rather then the end.
example tricep kickbacks(less fibers) vs decline tricep extension.
Or to be more specific when the muscle is more stretched another example being shoulder press vs front raises(less fibers).
Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman take this into account, Ronnie does bench press to only half way up, and Jay does his side laterals from behind the back increasing the ROM towards the begining of the rep.
Aparently when the muscle is most stretched is the best area of the rep to have load.
And excerises with even tension or close to even tension are not as good according to EMG tests, for example cables or pec dec, probly because of the increase in tension it forces you to use less weight and volume.
The problem is if you stick within a certain ROM you dont get stronger further out from that ROM, and you run the risk of injury.
- 02-20-2007, 01:25 PM
I think you need to understand the theory behind a fixed ROM to get this. For Ronnie and Jay, it's not about mass, it's not about strength, it's all about SIZE!!!! By fixing an exercise within a fixed ROM, you are going to be selectively working a certain set of muscle fibers within the muscle group. Fixed ROM exercises are best done to isolate the more noticeable muscle fibers within the muscle group.
For example, I like to do preacher curls on a machine, but only the top half of the motion. The idea behind doing it is to build the bicep's 'peak'. By no means am I going to build up the outside head or increase my overall bicep strength. It is strictly cosmetic, causing the illusion that I have stronger, more powerful biceps than I actually do. It has worked wonders for the peak, and but I'm on the market for finding a way to get my triceps to catch up. All in all, fixed ROM sets are a get way of creating a dysmorphic effect in a minimal amount of time.
- 02-20-2007, 02:15 PM
But you cant shape a particular muscle, the reason you can develop a peak is because theres 4 muscles atributing to the shape of your bicep:
Coracobrachialis, Brachialis, Bicep long head (outer), Bicep short head (inner).
So ROM has nothing to do with how you shape the muscle.
The reason you are targetting the long head I believe but I could be wrong on this, is because your upper arm position is at a 45degree angle as apose to 0 degrees.
Max-Force Generation Point:
It's the max-force generation point we mentioned earlier-that's the place on an exercise's stroke at which the target muscle can generate the most force-and more force equals more mass.
That point, say many scientists, is the spot where the most muscle fibers are stressed to the max because they are perfectly aligned for action. So if you overload that max-force point correctly, it's where the most growth stimulation occurs.
Where is that sweet spot on the curl's stroke? Right below the point at which your elbows are bent at 90 degrees, between the bottom and the midpoint. (There has to be some stretch in the muscle for ideal fiber alignment and therefore max-force production; in fact the closer you get to full contraction, the less force you can produce because of fiber crowding and bunching.)
Now imagine Arnold doing a cheat curl. He would lean forward, bend his arms slightly and heave the heavy barbell to his shoulders. Almost all of the overload occurred right at the max-force point-between the arms-straight-position and the midpoint.
02-20-2007, 02:41 PM
What I'm getting at is that there's a particular section in the curling motion that will effect the muscle fibers attributing to 'the peak' than the rest of the motion. By staying within this ROM section, you will isolate those particular fibers most.
I'm not trying to say you can shape a particular muscle head, but rather build up the group of fibers necessary to move the weight from Point A to Point B. Keep in mind this is not a proven fact. It is just a theory which some people go by, when trying to build size and symmetry.
02-20-2007, 02:47 PM
this is another topic that is heavily dependent on what you want in the particualr muscle group(s). Limited ROM can change peak/size etc. It can be used as a method of breaking past plateaus and/or sticking points. There used to be a lifting program that split each lift into 3 sections (start/mid-lift/final third of lift). Personally I feel I get a deeper/fuller workout if I get a stretch at the beggining and go all the way to lockout (but don't pause).
02-20-2007, 02:49 PM
02-20-2007, 02:53 PM
02-21-2007, 01:27 AM
What I am trying to say is position of the humerus and rotation of the wrist determines wich muscle you are going to target, and ROM determines how many fibers your going to split/hypertrophy.
Arnold, Ronnie and Jay all focus(ed) on the 1st half of the rep when they use(d) partial reps, never the 2nd half(except for shoulder press possibly for injury prevention reasons?).
Aparently this is backed by scientific evidence from MRI and EMG studies, I havent completly understood it, as I havent read the ins and outs of it yet but it seems very promising.
Based so far on the little bit I have read I think by keeping the tension in the muscle while its not contracted too much you are keeping more blood in the muscle, and also during bench press the upper half brings your triceps into it too much so focusing on the bottom half of the rep you are isolating the pecs while keeping maximum amount of tension and blood volume in them.
When doing a curl as your bringing it up past the half way point you are losing efficiency on the muscle because 1. the muscle is contracted and 2. your bringing the weight across at a 45 degree angle rather then straight up, losing tension on the muscle.
02-21-2007, 08:38 AM
But once more, there you are limiting ROM to concentrate on a specific muscle, not specific fibers within the muscle. It's the nature of compound movements to involve more than one muscle group, so limiting ROM will naturally let you achieve isolation.Based so far on the little bit I have read I think by keeping the tension in the muscle while its not contracted too much you are keeping more blood in the muscle, and also during bench press the upper half brings your triceps into it too much so focusing on the bottom half of the rep you are isolating the pecs while keeping maximum amount of tension and blood volume in them.
The tension is only what each muscle cell itself can generate at tetany, and since they're recruited on an all or nothing basis what you're saying here doesn't really make sense to me.When doing a curl as your bringing it up past the half way point you are losing efficiency on the muscle because 1. the muscle is contracted and 2. your bringing the weight across at a 45 degree angle rather then straight up, losing tension on the muscle.
02-21-2007, 10:28 AM
02-21-2007, 12:08 PM
There is similar method of training to POS which is called zone training in which you break the exercise ROM down into zones (halves, thirds etc) and work each one independantly.
There is has been some positive feedback regarding it's application and it's superiority over training in the more traditional manner over a ROM.
02-21-2007, 01:08 PM
02-21-2007, 01:15 PM
02-21-2007, 01:38 PM
I heard about j-reps and that but it didnt apeal to me, what intrests me with using the 1st half of the rep is its based on science, just like HST is.
02-21-2007, 02:50 PM
02-21-2007, 03:39 PM
I have both J reps books and have used it myself with good effect, however like CDB stated, this could have been in part due to a change in overall workout demands and as such my body adapted to this method of training. I have since returned to full ROM training.
The main benefit as I see it, being that one can overlaod a particular aspect of the ROM with a heavier than normal weight that would usually be employed.
There is some evidence that training in the most stretched positon promotes hyperplama but it is not conclusive at this time. I did write a short hypothesis on this subject which I was fortunate to have included in the second J rep book.
02-22-2007, 09:37 AM
02-22-2007, 09:42 AM
02-22-2007, 10:42 AM
Spider curls are responsible for finally breaking my arm plateau...I LOVE spider curls
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