Protein Synthesis, close Two-a-days, and leucine

[sheepdog.tx]

Lets talk with protein synthesis when you workout twice a day. Overtraining aside, if you split your workout in two for social timing reasons how does this effect body chemistry in regards to muscle building. Say for example I workout at lunch, take high leucine protien after, workout again just before dinner, do the same on different body parts.

Is the protein synthesis continuing to start again in this new location?
What if I hit the same area in a different angle, head, etc etc?
Is it robbing protien delivery from previous workout area?
Am I going to have high cortisol/low GH from training beyond the holy 1 hour mark and after having high leucine?
If i did a blend in between of whey and casein would the still digesting casein with a fresh dose of leucine or BCAAs restart the synthesis?
Should I dose leucine or BCAAs even with a slow digesting, slow release/low leucine protien like meat, egg, legumes, etc?

if you have any studies in regards to the above would be helpful. Not seeing anything on ergo-log in regards to this

 

[JudoJosh]

Hmmm... interesting question.

I have honestly no idea bit will check to see what research there is on 2 a day workouts. Hopefully someone like ZiR RED or Rodja can chime in with some evidence or at least a hypothesis

 

[Rodja]

You'll need to be more specific with the actual training. Regarding some of the issues, cortisol is way overblown, protein synthesis never stops (think dimmer switches and not an on/off switch), and it will not "rob" the previously trained area of recovery.

 

[vygah]

For two-a-days make sure you either the same body part like upper then lower chest or completely unrelated like chest and legs. I've always found doing for example chest then shoulders always ends up ruining the second workout.

 

[tigerdb2]

Soooo do the same or different body parts? Got it. All kidding aside, like rodja mentioned, protein synthesis is a systemic response. You don't simply increase protein synthesis in your legs, for example. There may be more remodeling in the legs due to damage and metabolic build up in your legs but It's not limited to just your lower body in that case.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Soooo do the same or different body parts? Got it. All kidding aside, like rodja mentioned, protein synthesis is a systemic response. You don't simply increase protein synthesis in your legs, for example. There may be more remodeling in the legs due to damage and metabolic build up in your legs but It's not limited to just your lower body in that case.

Ok that helps. So If I do two-a-days chances are the longer overlapping protein syntesis generating nervous system impacts will make better use of daily protien intake/leucine spikes correct? Point is if I hit the same body part with a different angle (say pull ups midday, upright rows in the evening) is that going to hurt my results or increase them? Or should I just try to hit completely different parts (just legs midday, upper evening)? Any while 48 hours in optimum recovery time can a person with low muscle mass put on doing full body daily so long as you're alternating angles every other day?

 

[tigerdb2]

Ok that helps. So If I do two-a-days chances are the longer overlapping protein syntesis generating nervous system impacts will make better use of daily protien intake/leucine spikes correct? Point is if I hit the same body part with a different angle (say pull ups midday, upright rows in the evening) is that going to hurt my results or increase them? Or should I just try to hit completely different parts (just legs midday, upper evening)? Any while 48 hours in optimum recovery time can a person with low muscle mass put on doing full body daily so long as you're alternating angles every other day?

First of all, whether you're changing the angle or not, you're still using and taxing the same muscle groups. Consider recovery. If you'd like to do the same muscle groups, you're going to have to reduce the volume of each session. So if you typically do something like 12 sets per muscle group (this is an arbitrary number so pay it no real mind), you could and would be best served, in my opinion, splitting it up into 6 and 6 for your two workouts. That is ok in my opinion. As someone new to this, it's not necessary but if it fits your schedule then go for it.

The other options is to obviously use different muscle groups. There is nothing wrong with working muscle groups 2-3 times a week so this can certainly work. As I stated earlier, though, for recovery purposes, you're going to have to do less volume per session. This approach is taxing and you're going to have to place a premium on sleep and eating an adequate amount of calories.

Protein synthesis is elevated for up to 24-48 hours, I believe, so I wouldn't worry about working out twice a day to increase this. The biggest consideration for this scenario is going to be recovery, as I stated. If you're eating and sleeping enough you should be ok but I would absolutely monitor your performance in the weight room, your energy levels and even your mood. If these start to change in a negative way, you may need to consider pulling back on the reigns a bit

 

[Oscar]

If you have the time two a days can be great especially if your not natty. Made some of my best gains doing two a days. Even now sometimes if I'm training legs on a weekend and don't have the time or energy for a full session AM session will be quad dominant and pm will be hams

 

[ZiR RED]

Training and then feeding results in the stimulation of a number of cellular processes leading to adaptation that ultimately (when repeated over time) manifest in enhanced performance...be in larger muscles, more strength, etc. These molecular pathways take hours, days, and in extreme cases, even weeks to express their full adaptive capacity after any single stimulus. The issue with two a days that train the same muscle group in the same manner (resistance training...the "angle" does not matter) will interrupt the adaptive process and blunt the adaptive magnitude. This all results in less gains. Two a days that are resistance based need to be precisely planned and executed, otherwise you will negate the stimulus recovery adaptation response.

In essence, training incline chest in the morning and decline chest in the evening is a terrible idea.

 

[vygah]

To clarify you should either train the same parts and just make it so they are just 2 halves of the same workout. Or do body parts that will not hinder each other. If you do back then legs your lower back will limit your leg workout. If you do chest then shoulders your triceps will limit your shoulder workout. So just do like back/chest or shoulders/legs,etc....

 

[sheepdog.tx]

To clarify you should either train the same parts and just make it so they are just 2 halves of the same workout. Or do body parts that will not hinder each other. If you do back then legs your lower back will limit your leg workout. If you do chest then shoulders your triceps will limit your shoulder workout. So just do like back/chest or shoulders/legs,etc....

Ok with that said whats your thoughts on if at lunch I go to two-a-days with lunch being say A.) Legs B.) Core and evenings being A.) back/biceps B.) Chest/tris or some combo of those?

 

[ZiR RED]

Mon:
A. HI Upper Pull
B. LI Lower Squat
Tue:
A. LI Upper Push
B. HI Deadlift

Thur:
A. HI Lower Squat
B. LI Upper Pull

Fri:
A. HI Upper Push
B. LI Lower Deadlift


Br

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Mon:
A. HI Upper Pull
B. LI Lower Squat
Tue:
A. LI Upper Push
B. HI Deadlift

Thur:
A. HI Lower Squat
B. LI Upper Pull

Fri:
A. HI Upper Push
B. LI Lower Deadlift


Br

Too confusing

So this takes us back to optimal feeding on a two-a-day. I usually eat my carbs post WOs but since theres two post workouts a day..

 

[ZiR RED]

HI is high intensity
LI is low intensity

If you are really serious about two a day training, you need to account for fatigue - both neural and metabolic.

You are training twice so you need to eat more to account for additional energy expenditure. Consider that each workout burns 600-1000 kcal per hour, and then you need to supply around another 400 kcal per day to fuel the biosynthesis of new muscle tissue. So easily you would probably need an additional 150-200g of carbs.