dumbell fly vs crossover

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    dumbell fly vs crossover


    i have no calbe crossover fly at my home gym and i would like to know if it will make any different in less muscle growth because i do dumbbell fly instead of the cable crossover fly , what do u say guys the dumbbel fly effective as the crossover for building mass or not ?
    thank

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    The fly movement is not a mass builder but a mass polishing movement. If you want mass it involves the use of heavy compound chest movements. My .02
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons
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    ppl say u cant shape muscle ,so what do u mean on polishing ?
    anyway do u think it will make any different if i will do dumbbell fly instead of cable fly ?
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    By polishing I mean that you can bring out some striations and definition if you are lean enough for that effect(competing, etc). I have never done any fly movements but the cable type to me would be better because of the full range tension.
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons
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    u cant bring some striations and definition to muscle it is all genetic man ,
    i have asked so many ppl everyone told me that u can make your chest bigger or smaller or make the upper chest more dominate but u cant change anything else or bring some defination it is myth
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    With that out of the way...the heavier you can lift, the bigger you will get. Flys aren't going to let you move heavy weight.
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    With that out of the way...the heavier you can lift, the bigger you will get. Flys aren't going to let you move heavy weight.
    is the weight you are trying to move or the force production of the muscle that matters?
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    It's like we said about legs in your other thread. Use a barbell for mass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    is the weight you are trying to move of the force production of the muscle that matters?
    How much force do you think doing 15lb DB flys will produce as opposed to BB bench presses?
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons
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    well the pec major is capable of producing X amount of force. no matter what movement you are doing and with what implements. your muscles do not know the difference.

    the bench uses many other muscles to move the bar so the force produced by the pec major is only part of the total force applied to move the bar. same with the flies, the pecs are only part of the muscles used and therefore part of the total force applied to the bar. add in the fact that the force produced by the muscle is not directly translated to the movement of of the resistance and it would be hard to say how much force the pec does actually produce to move the weight.

    it can be estimated but that is besides the point. the point of my post was that one could cause the pecs to produce the same force on flies and on bench press. but the weights used will be different. not due to the pecs doing less but the total force and vecotr applied to moving the weight.

    in other words your flim flammery myth that an exercise not as good due to it not using as heavy of a weight is just that. i wont even go into the myth of striation at this point as it just gets even simpler and that may be too much.

    does that make sense?
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    How about this then:
    Poundage work load moved

    3 sets of 8 reps at 225 lbs BB bench press = 5400 lbs of weight moved
    3 sets of 8 reps at 15 lbs DB flys = 360 lbs of weight moved

    You tell me that your pecs won't know the difference. On another note, lighten up on the post aggression champ.
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    How about this then:
    Poundage work load moved

    3 sets of 8 reps at 225 lbs BB bench press = 5400 lbs of weight moved
    3 sets of 8 reps at 15 lbs DB flys = 360 lbs of weight moved

    You tell me that your pecs won't know the difference. On another note, lighten up on the post aggression champ.
    thats is you are only concerned about the weight moved. but we are talking about the pecs. did you measure the force output of the pecs? the pecs function as a 1st class lever. here is a quick tutorial:
    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/levers-d_1304.html

    the forearms are pulled forward in the bench via a second class lever. as the angles of effort and load force change the force output to the bar changes as to what is applied for the bench.

    when doing fly's the triceps are not involved and the lever arms and thus the force variables change. basically the distance from the fulcrum to the effort force increases by as much 2 fold. that changes the effort force needed by the pecs to move the lever (arm).

    the pecs can be producing the same amount of force but the effort force is different which shows by the varying of weight on the bar that can be moved. this force is a culmination of the varying forces created by the muscles at varying angles, or the resolution of forces. here is a quick tutorial:
    http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/vectors/u3l3b.cfm

    you can see that the force produced by the pecs are angled before being applied to the movements you and i have described. it does not mean that the force produced is less or more in either more but that the resultant force is different.

    does that make sense?
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    I love the science behind what makes things tick but real world facts are what I really like. Real world: A person doing BB bench will get bigger, and stronger, faster than a person doing flys. I hope the OP realizes this. If he wants a pump movement at the end of his compound work with BBs then go to it.
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons
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    I prefer the crossover because I get constant tension throughout the movement, whereas I lose tension during the peak contraction phase of dumbbell flyes. Remember to internally rotate your shoulders at the end of the fly movement regardless
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    your right but my question is if it's so much important that it can make your chest bigger or smaller
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    Look up Herschel Walker's training routine and then answer your own question. The only thing getting in the way of your gains is your own mind.
    Training log:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/230377-13-weeks-rps.html
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    nice he do alot of sit up and push up this is,
    he is really huge
    but he has small chest compare to the whole body
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmare1234 View Post
    your right but my question is if it's so much important that it can make your chest bigger or smaller
    trying to grow your chest with flys or cable crossovers is small thinking. go back to the basics, do the bench. not cause it puts more force on the chest, but cause it puts more force on the entire body.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    OP
    A common theme in your threads is that you seem to have your mind made up and want to contradict every bit of advice given you.
    If that is the case, fine, go your way and God be with you.

    To be 1000% clear, you do not NEED cable crossovers or leg extensions, or any of the other isolation exercises you seem obsessed with.
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    yhe u right guys ,
    just bought all these equimpment for my home gym and this is my habbit and i want it to be perfect ,
    ty for help just had to know i have what i need for getting max results .
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmare1234 View Post
    yhe u right guys ,
    just bought all these equimpment for my home gym and this is my habbit and i want it to be perfect ,
    ty for help just had to know i have what i need for getting max results .
    If you want perfection then get a cage, get a bench, get a barbell, get some plates and then learn to train movements and that is all you will need.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    i care about bodybuilding not powerlifting ,
    and i still have cage,bench,w barbell,olympic barbell,sets of dumbbells,dips,push up,low/height pulley and leg extension /curl (attachment bench)
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmare1234 View Post
    i care about bodybuilding not powerlifting ,
    and i still have cage,bench,w barbell,olympic barbell,sets of dumbbells,dips,push up,low/height pulley and leg extension /curl (attachment bench)
    If you want to body build then do what men have done since the beginning of time, get a cage, get a bench, get a barbell, get some plates and then learn to train movements and that is all you will need.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    well the pec major is capable of producing X amount of force. no matter what movement you are doing and with what implements. your muscles do not know the difference.

    the bench uses many other muscles to move the bar so the force produced by the pec major is only part of the total force applied to move the bar. same with the flies, the pecs are only part of the muscles used and therefore part of the total force applied to the bar. add in the fact that the force produced by the muscle is not directly translated to the movement of of the resistance and it would be hard to say how much force the pec does actually produce to move the weight.

    it can be estimated but that is besides the point. the point of my post was that one could cause the pecs to produce the same force on flies and on bench press. but the weights used will be different. not due to the pecs doing less but the total force and vecotr applied to moving the weight.

    in other words your flim flammery myth that an exercise not as good due to it not using as heavy of a weight is just that. i wont even go into the myth of striation at this point as it just gets even simpler and that may be too much.

    does that make sense?
    It gets even more complicated when you play around with moment arm length. When you extend the moment arm, you increasing torque due to extended elbow.

    Think of where the weights are and where the force (gravitational) is when you have your arms in a fly position. The more you decrease the moment arm, the easier the movement.

    Plus the flyes put extra stress on the shoulder in a flye position. But I still do them
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    I like cable flyes. I've added noticeable size to my chest this year doing them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeekPoop View Post
    I like cable flyes. I've added noticeable size to my chest this year doing them.
    +1 for cables. Noticeably better pectoral contractions.
  

  
 

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