CNS problems

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    CNS problems


    I didn't want to post this in the overtraining thread because I did not want to hijack it. Ironically, I was going to start a thread asking if CNS problems were real. I thought they were, then I read that article by Mark Bell about how they are not. It didn't really change my mind as much as I wonder if his opinion comes from years of steroid use, which allow you to train much harder obviously. I would guess some signs would be lethargy, lack of motivation, things of that sort. That stuff can also be tied into your mood, though. Thoughts?

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    I read that article. I think he was saying that it isnt as prevalent as stated since most people don't train hard or often enough to seriously tax their CNS. As far as your steroid comment, I'm natural and I've taxed myself to a point of overtraining. I think it's partially mental because of the need to sustain intensity. Here's my remedy: change one of two things:nutrition (more calories) or routine. Both of these components will change mental and physical engagement and thus remedy your overtraining. Sleep is essential as well. Good Luck! Taking a break or lightening for a set period can sometimes be a blessing for your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubbabubba View Post
    I read that article. I think he was saying that it isnt as prevalent as stated since most people don't train hard or often enough to seriously tax their CNS. As far as your steroid comment, I'm natural and I've taxed myself to a point of overtraining. I think it's partially mental because of the need to sustain intensity. Here's my remedy: change one of two things:nutrition (more calories) or routine. Both of these components will change mental and physical engagement and thus remedy your overtraining. Sleep is essential as well. Good Luck! Taking a break or lightening for a set period can sometimes be a blessing for your body.
    Oh I was just curious. I don't need any help. haha Just a topic of interest after reading. What I meant by him being on steroids is that he could do more training than a natural guy like you and myself, therefore his ability to stay out of an overtrained state is much greater. BTW, not against steroids. I actually would like to run a cycle of test in the near future. I was just saying being on steroids decreases the likely-hood of CNS issues.

    I also agree with his point that people don't reach it as much as they think they do. If you are particularly stressed or eating like garbage or not sleeping, of course your workouts are going to suck. It has nothing to do with the CNS. I don't generally believe in either overtraining or CNS issues. I think it is a matter of having trouble keeping the intensity up. Which again can do with a lot of other things aside from either overtraining or CNS problems. Hell, endocronologists don't believe in CNS failure. It would need to be something very extreme to make that happen.
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    No opposition to hormones either but theyre popular, just like you said, because they aid in recovery and muscle repair, anabolism. I think that people who aren't listening to their bodies blame it on fatigue rather than the real cause, boredom or ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubbabubba View Post
    No opposition to hormones either but theyre popular, just like you said, because they aid in recovery and muscle repair, anabolism. I think that people who aren't listening to their bodies blame it on fatigue rather than the real cause, boredom or ignorance.
    Agree. People do not generally like to look at themselves as the problem. A lot easier to distribute the blame to anything other than yourself.
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    I think a situation arises where, if you cannot cut something up and put it under a microscope to see what is happening, it is a tougher experiment to have data on.
    I have also heard some gurus/scientists say, it is not necessarily the CNS, but the PNS that can be over taxed.
    Questions also arise, that if you can train the muscle fibers & structural system along with cardio respiratory to adapt to a greater stimulus, then why not the CNS too?
    There was a book written years ago about adapting to stress and small amounts of periods of time are good. People always seem to want a stress free life, but actually, stress can be good for you, as long as it is not overdone, just like many other things.
    I think too, we relate CNS burnout with boredom in training, loss of libido, appetite mood swings etc. etc. but as far as specifics I believe it is still a study of how emotions and the mental states, relate or carryover if you will, to the physical states of our bodies.
    I believe there is some research into neurons controlling specific movement, that with too much heavy or single max attempt work over time, become less responsive to stimulus and thus changing up the pattern or movement, even slightly helps or creates a different pattern. Is this why some routines use conjugate training?

    As far as drugs/PEDS, I see what you guys are saying, but my question would be, that even with better recovery/strength from exogenous sources, could a level still be reached by the enhanced trainee, of a point of no return?
    Drugs may enhance the length of time or total output compared to a natural trainee, but I don't think it means they would never have to deal with going past the point of no return IMO.
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    Well, I think are lots of examples of people really damaging their body. Ronnie Coleman comes to mind. He was on PEDS but his training style was so intense that his body more or less shut down. I think it started with nerve damage that affected the growth of on side of his back. His situation was pretty intense. Since then he has bad surgery and other issues.
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    Certain androgens, especially the stronger androgens will actually increase CNS drive, and can lead to a state of over training quicker if vol/int/freq and mental stress are not accounted for. I am not too familiar with the effects of steroids on the CNS such that increase its recovery.

    Here's the thing. Over training is a real phenomenom. To say its just under eating, etc. is being foolish. Most people on here (typical bodybuilding routines) do not use the intensity (as a percentage of of 1 RM, or neurodynamic magnitude) to reach a true state of over training. But, for higher level athletes who are doing a lot of CNS demanding activities, such as 90%+ intensity training, plyometrics, sprinting, etc. over training is a very real concern, and is why periodization is so important.

    Here is some reading, if you really are interested I can get the full texts of any of these studies:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15659274
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10694113
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23016079 (Free article, and good review)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18059610

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
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    That is interesting stuff Jason. I also found this guys site and some of the articles also rather interesting...

    http://www.myosynthesis.com/cns-handle-stress
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    Nice find Paul, and probably easier than reading what I put up. I also I noticed some of the pubmed citations I posted are hyperlinked in his article, which I appreciate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Certain androgens, especially the stronger androgens will actually increase CNS drive, and can lead to a state of over training quicker if vol/int/freq and mental stress are not accounted for. I am not too familiar with the effects of steroids on the CNS such that increase its recovery.

    Here's the thing. Over training is a real phenomenom. To say its just under eating, etc. is being foolish. Most people on here (typical bodybuilding routines) do not use the intensity (as a percentage of of 1 RM, or neurodynamic magnitude) to reach a true state of over training. But, for higher level athletes who are doing a lot of CNS demanding activities, such as 90%+ intensity training, plyometrics, sprinting, etc. over training is a very real concern, and is why periodization is so important.

    Here is some reading, if you really are interested I can get the full texts of any of these studies:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15659274
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10694113
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23016079 (Free article, and good review)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18059610

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    I do agree that staying above a certain % point in training and adding training for a particular sport for an extended period would induce a revolt by the CNS at some point. I don't believe in it when it comes to 95% or more of lifters out there. When some dude is over 6' and weighs 160lbs or so, unless he is a world class powerlifter, then he is not suffering from CNS failure. You are very correct that most of us will never experience it and that was basically my point as well. Most of us will never tax our bodies for such an extended period of time such as world class athletes do. Most of our gym issues stem from lack of sleep or not eating right or additional stressors such as jobs and children. That's why I mostly do not believe in it when someone in the general lifting population states they have the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    I think a situation arises where, if you cannot cut something up and put it under a microscope to see what is happening, it is a tougher experiment to have data on.
    I have also heard some gurus/scientists say, it is not necessarily the CNS, but the PNS that can be over taxed.
    Questions also arise, that if you can train the muscle fibers & structural system along with cardio respiratory to adapt to a greater stimulus, then why not the CNS too?
    There was a book written years ago about adapting to stress and small amounts of periods of time are good. People always seem to want a stress free life, but actually, stress can be good for you, as long as it is not overdone, just like many other things.
    I think too, we relate CNS burnout with boredom in training, loss of libido, appetite mood swings etc. etc. but as far as specifics I believe it is still a study of how emotions and the mental states, relate or carryover if you will, to the physical states of our bodies.
    I believe there is some research into neurons controlling specific movement, that with too much heavy or single max attempt work over time, become less responsive to stimulus and thus changing up the pattern or movement, even slightly helps or creates a different pattern. Is this why some routines use conjugate training?

    As far as drugs/PEDS, I see what you guys are saying, but my question would be, that even with better recovery/strength from exogenous sources, could a level still be reached by the enhanced trainee, of a point of no return?
    Drugs may enhance the length of time or total output compared to a natural trainee, but I don't think it means they would never have to deal with going past the point of no return IMO.
    Like I was saying to Jason, I don't think it would be good to stay above the 90% mark in your training for an extended period of time. I was mostly relating my belief in CNS failure to the common gym goer. It's amazing how many not really strong or muscular think they have CNS failure.

    As far as steroids go, I was wondering if his point of view was due to the amount of time he spent on PEDS. I think they allow you to push your body harder which would then push back the normal state of when you would overtraining. Say you are a natural trainer and you have trained to the brink of overtraining. Steroids would then allow you to push your physical limitsl so it's not an issue entire a higher training threshold. If they were not effective for those purposes, world class athletes wouldn't bother with them. CNS issues in world-class athletes is an issue. I think that's why sometimes athletes in certain sports disappear.

    I guess I'm stating the everyday gym goer doesn't really have to worry about CNS issues for the most part. Most of their concerns are lack of sleep, poor diet, and additional stressors such as work, children, etc that do not allow them to go to their fullest at the gym.
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    The overtraining that is spoken frequently on forums doesn't happen; they're usually either out of shape, undereating, or both. AAS changes the game to an extent, but most highly overrate the degree in which it will help with CNS recovery. They undisputedly help with the muscular side of the equation, but that is not the source of overtraining.

    Bell himself will tell you that overtraining does exist, but seldom is it going to truly happen in the recreational gym rats that spend 4-6 hours training per week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    The overtraining that is spoken frequently on forums doesn't happen; they're usually either out of shape, undereating, or both. AAS changes the game to an extent, but most highly overrate the degree in which it will help with CNS recovery. They undisputedly help with the muscular side of the equation, but that is not the source of overtraining.

    Bell himself will tell you that overtraining does exist, but seldom is it going to truly happen in the recreational gym rats that spend 4-6 hours training per week.
    That's what I was getting at. Most gym goers do not have to worry about it. World-class level athletes generally are the only ones.

    I figured steroids, with their increase in aggression and drive, would block out some CNS issues one might have. I didn't figure they had a direct connection to the CNS so to speak, but I figured they would help more. Count me as one of the ones that over stated its abilities in that department. haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryane87 View Post

    That's what I was getting at. Most gym goers do not have to worry about it. World-class level athletes generally are the only ones.

    I figured steroids, with their increase in aggression and drive, would block out some CNS issues one might have. I didn't figure they had a direct connection to the CNS so to speak, but I figured they would help more. Count me as one of the ones that over stated its abilities in that department. haha
    The AAS that really increase aggression are primarily going to be used leading up to a meet/event and the athlete is already going to be on the line of overtraining (e.g. Halotestin) as they're trying to hit super compensation by overreaching.

    PEDs will help more so with the work capacity aspect than really ramp up CNS recovery. One the reasons why Westside is such a strong gym is their emphasis on a high work capacity. With a higher work capacity, your body will recover quicker and you'll be able to train at a higher percentage. However, to say you'll be setting PRs every time is far from true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    The AAS that really increase aggression are primarily going to be used leading up to a meet/event and the athlete is already going to be on the line of overtraining (e.g. Halotestin) as they're trying to hit super compensation by overreaching.

    PEDs will help more so with the work capacity aspect than really ramp up CNS recovery. One the reasons why Westside is such a strong gym is their emphasis on a high work capacity. With a higher work capacity, your body will recover quicker and you'll be able to train at a higher percentage. However, to say you'll be setting PRs every time is far from true.
    Halotestin is very toxic to the body as well, correct? By high work capacity do you mean volume or more time spent at 90% plus? I did find it kind of hard to believe that you would be constantly setting new PRs with every workout. Maybe in relation to a certain weight you are using, but if that was the case, the gains would never end on that program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryane87 View Post
    Halotestin is very toxic to the body as well, correct? By high work capacity do you mean volume or more time spent at 90% plus? I did find it kind of hard to believe that you would be constantly setting new PRs with every workout. Maybe in relation to a certain weight you are using, but if that was the case, the gains would never end on that program.
    Yes to halo and both to the work capacity issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryane87 View Post
    I did find it kind of hard to believe that you would be constantly setting new PRs with every workout.
    Well, they attempt PR's in rotating differing exercises and or exercises with different set ups. So it is not like they set or go for PR's in the same lift week after week necessarily.

    Also, and some here may disagree, but linear progression is still probably better for most, in staving off staleness or what might appear to be, overreaching and keeping the gains coming over cycles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    Well, they attempt PR's in rotating differing exercises and or exercises with different set ups. So it is not like they set or go for PR's in the same lift week after week necessarily.

    Also, and some here may disagree, but linear progression is still probably better for most, in staving off staleness or what might appear to be, overreaching and keeping the gains coming over cycles.
    This gets closer to the Westside philosophy in which they go near 100% every session, but Louie will say that it's 100% of what the lifter has that day. However, Westside is the only place that really does this (Supertraining as well) along with circa-max phases.

    In regards to linear progression, that really depends on the level of lifter, but I can say with near 100% certainty that it will not work at all for a geared lifter. You want overreaching at the end of each cycle, but it does have to be properly programmed according to that specific lifter and their strength level/work capacity. Linear progression, IMO, fails to really capture this aspect in that it is too rigid and lifters are rarely going to stay on course with the plan due to a myriad of reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    This gets closer to the Westside philosophy in which they go near 100% every session, but Louie will say that it's 100% of what the lifter has that day. However, Westside is the only place that really does this (Supertraining as well) along with circa-max phases.
    First let me state I do not know all the ins and outs of WSB's stuff, so I am going by what I did with it years ago (adding: I did find some successes with ME work and have always been a raw lifter) and by what I have read on and off over the years. That said, the daily maxes reminds me of Zatsiorsky stuff, in that they would not psyche up for maxes or nothing. No stims or extra edge stuff, just (as you stated Rodja) a max for what they are good for on that day. I might be wrong, but I think they might psyche up for training maxes, (watching the old Chuck V dead vid) but the Bulgarians passed on this saving all the highest highs for the comp only.


    In regards to linear progression, that really depends on the level of lifter, but I can say with near 100% certainty that it will not work at all for a geared lifter. You want overreaching at the end of each cycle, but it does have to be properly programmed according to that specific lifter and their strength level/work capacity. Linear progression, IMO, fails to really capture this aspect in that it is too rigid and lifters are rarely going to stay on course with the plan due to a myriad of reasons.
    There is no doubt that you have to give Lou his dues on successful lifters. And I agree it seems tipped towards geared lifting. Just to play devils advocate however, taking the deadlift, Lou has had IMO (compared to other non WSB routines and or programs) less success compared to BP & squat, since it is a harder lift to get help from gear out of.
    I just read a post from a PL'er on a differing forum, about how the vast majority of lifters, will have great success with say the "Workout Of The Month" in PLUSA, which has been almost always, a linear type set up.

    Oh, and apology for a thread derail to o/p...!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    First let me state I do not know all the ins and outs of WSB's stuff, so I am going by what I did with it years ago (adding: I did find some successes with ME work and have always been a raw lifter) and by what I have read on and off over the years. That said, the daily maxes reminds me of Zatsiorsky stuff, in that they would not psyche up for maxes or nothing. No stims or extra edge stuff, just (as you stated Rodja) a max for what they are good for on that day. I might be wrong, but I think they might psyche up for training maxes, (watching the old Chuck V dead vid) but the Bulgarians passed on this saving all the highest highs for the comp only.There is no doubt that you have to give Lou his dues on successful lifters. And I agree it seems tipped towards geared lifting. Just to play devils advocate however, taking the deadlift, Lou has had IMO (compared to other non WSB routines and or programs) less success compared to BP & squat, since it is a harder lift to get help from gear out of. I just read a post from a PL'er on a differing forum, about how the vast majority of lifters, will have great success with say the "Workout Of The Month" in PLUSA, which has been almost always, a linear type set up. Oh, and apology for a thread derail to o/p...!
    Louie does generally promote refraining from really psyching up for a training session and leaving that for the platform. Chuck always trained like that, which is why he was so successful, and he was known for his intensity at every training session.Louie also does not promote much deadlift training and they seldom do a full-range pull in their pre-meet training. I don't know exactly why he promotes this style, but that's more so why they don't have the greatest deadlifters in the world training there. Louie puts a greater emphasis on squat and bench than he does on the deadlift. Regarding linear and most lifters, yes, it will work, but most lifters do not train with the appropriate intensity and will see progress from anything, but that is not the point. At the high levels of PL'ing, I can't recall anyone using linear these days because it is far from the ideal model because, like I said, nothing ever goes according to plan. When I design training templates, I don't write out the final phase until it the microcycle is about to begin as you now have to program around injuries and training status. Some people can work up to their second attempt a week out from a meet, but that is going to be the exception.
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    Well, I do think quite a few "raw" perhaps some "unity" lifters still use it in some form or fashion. Maybe there is a bit of miscommunications on our descriptions of linear.
    Coan used it and it worked pretty good for him. Albeit before the super gear I suppose.
    This was also an interesting read, vvv but mentions how Lou moved away from it more with the geared stuff, so I can see your points too.


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    No worries about hijacking paul! I like good reads and already saw what I needed to see. My feeling was correct and verified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    Well, I do think quite a few "raw" perhaps some "unity" lifters still use it in some form or fashion. Maybe there is a bit of miscommunications on our descriptions of linear. Coan used it and it worked pretty good for him. Albeit before the super gear I suppose. This was also an interesting read, vvv but mentions how Lou moved away from it more with the geared stuff, so I can see your points too. Raw Lifting and Linear Periodization € Myosynthesis
    There's a big problem with that article: most of what the author describes as linear periodization is actually block periodization. Even 5/3/1 is closer to a mini-block periodization scheme than most realize especially with the deloads after the "1" week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Even 5/3/1 is closer to a mini-block periodization scheme than most realize especially with the deloads after the "1" week.
    Yeah, okay guy, I think I see where I am a bit off with the specifics.
    Was reading some of Gabe Naspinski's stuff, and he lays it out pretty well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    Yeah, okay guy, I think I see where I am a bit off with the specifics.
    Was reading some of Gabe Naspinski's stuff, and he lays it out pretty well.
    There's a seminar by Jeremy Frey on YT over it as well.
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