Does OVER training exist???

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    Does OVER training exist???


    If you take in the right amount of calories to energize each workout is there a such thing as over training?

    Working arms three times a week
    Legs twice
    Back twice
    Etc..


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    yes but just like the word "hardgainer," its thrown around way too much

    it takes a combination of training too much and not eating enough to actually make it happen. and theres a mental aspect to it as well

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    Sure does. And in my opinion 99% of people that say they have experienced did not. They were under recovered not over trained.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post
    If you take in the right amount of calories to energize each workout is there a such thing as over training?

    Working arms three times a week
    Legs twice
    Back twice
    Etc..
    There is, I believe a difference in overtrained state and a plateau and or a point you quit gaining. 95% (maybe even 99.9% will most likely reach a point sometime in training where gains slow or stop for a bit or regress for a bit, but it does not mean you are actually overtrained by the scientific term. (see Supertraining : Siff)
    It may be more a poor balance of volume, intensity, frequency and rest/recovery at a given time.
    I also agree with asooneyeonig being under recovered or not in a positive gain state.

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    A lot more under resting, under supplementation, and under eating takes place then overtraining.

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    It has so much more to do with systemic inflammation and the immune system, the neuroendocrine response, and CNS neurotransmittors than just under eating/supplementing.

    There is a wealth of information on pubmed.gov regarding over training causes, autoregulation, and treatments. Just search the term "overtraining syndrome"

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    It has so much more to do with systemic inflammation and the immune system, the neuroendocrine response, and CNS neurotransmittors than just under eating/supplementing.

    There is a wealth of information on pubmed.gov regarding over training causes, autoregulation, and treatments. Just search the term "overtraining syndrome"

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    The whole "no ovettraining just under eating" bothers me as much as the incorrect assumption of overtraining. As you stated, it goes so much farther than the simplistic view of your muscles and feeding them.

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    I don't think it does. When I look around these days it seems like all the young guys are anemic looking stick figures who've never done a single physically taxing thing in their entire lives. Of course they're going to have a strong aversion to anything requiring physical effort. You can't train "in moderation". If you don't put out a maximal effort you'll get 0 results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    It has so much more to do with systemic inflammation and the immune system, the neuroendocrine response, and CNS neurotransmittors than just under eating/supplementing.

    There is a wealth of information on pubmed.gov regarding over training causes, autoregulation, and treatments. Just search the term "overtraining syndrome"

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    Lol all I can now say is...This ^^^^^^

    But yes as it was reiterated , many more factors other than caloric allotment and lifting periodization or frequency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Lol all I can now say is...This ^^^^^^

    But yes as it was reiterated , many more factors other than caloric allotment and lifting periodization or frequency.
    If all you can say is what someone else already said, then you haven't added anything to the conversation have you. Yes Jason is a PhD. That doesn't make him automatically right. People 50 years ago busted their asses every day and they called it *work*. Do you think an iron worker or a construction worker back in the days when everything had to be done my hand ever whined about "overtraining"? I don't. Most people these days haven't got a clue what it means to physically exert yourself. That's what I said before and I stand by it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by compudog View Post

    If all you can say is what someone else already said, then you haven't added anything to the conversation have you. Yes Jason is a PhD. That doesn't make him automatically right. People 50 years ago busted their asses every day and they called it *work*. Do you think an iron worker or a construction worker back in the days when everything had to be done my hand ever whined about "overtraining"? I don't. Most people these days haven't got a clue what it means to physically exert yourself. That's what I said before and I stand by it.
    Great point which brings me back the concept of "under recovery" which I really liked people now a days want to be lean and ripped so they don't eat enough to make bigger harder and stinger gains. Along with that is the sleep aspect don't think alot of people realize you grow at rest. Maybe a combination of more calories and more sleep will allow you to be able to lift more frequently.

    Maybe over training is under eating and sleeping

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    I'm quoting asooneye with the "under recovery" statement just wanted to give him the credit ^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by compudog View Post
    If all you can say is what someone else already said, then you haven't added anything to the conversation have you. Yes Jason is a PhD. That doesn't make him automatically right. People 50 years ago busted their asses every day and they called it *work*. Do you think an iron worker or a construction worker back in the days when everything had to be done my hand ever whined about "overtraining"? I don't. Most people these days haven't got a clue what it means to physically exert yourself. That's what I said before and I stand by it.
    I actually thank you for questioning me regardless of my credentials.

    To your point, the nature of the physical work done in construction, iron, mining, and most other manual labor jobs is NOT placing a high degree of strain on the CNS. This type of work is mostly metabolic, and thus the strain is on energy production and muscular recovery...very similar to your typical bodybuilding programs where reps never get below 6 and the intensity is never over 85-90% of the 1RM load. So, to your credit, most people do not and probably will not ever truly experience the over training syndrome.

    However, if you want to see if it exists, and experience it, I will gladly design you a training program to achieve that, and despite your best attempts to sleep 10 hours a night, consume 5000 calories of quality foods, you will experience central fatigue, and you will feel like ass.

    Edit: forgot to put the "not" in above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by compudog View Post
    If all you can say is what someone else already said, then you haven't added anything to the conversation have you. Yes Jason is a PhD. That doesn't make him automatically right. People 50 years ago busted their asses every day and they called it *work*. Do you think an iron worker or a construction worker back in the days when everything had to be done my hand ever whined about "overtraining"? I don't. Most people these days haven't got a clue what it means to physically exert yourself. That's what I said before and I stand by it.
    I don't argue anymore with people who have nothing to do but worrying instead of reading. I was gonna simply state some of the points he mentioned, but he had already done it . Simply if you don't believe it exists, why even ask in the forums if you are not gonna allow yourself to stand corrected? Read up more on it yourself, and if you still don't believe in it's existence do as you very well please. Easy as that buddy ! Just don't try to bash away other opinions since YOU did ask for them...question all you want, but be prepared to either ignore everything said (you fit that profile) or learn and stand corrected. Nothing wrong with either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I actually thank you for questioning me regardless of my credentials.

    To your point, the nature of the physical work done in construction, iron, mining, and most other manual labor jobs is NOT placing a high degree of strain on the CNS. This type of work is mostly metabolic, and thus the strain is on energy production and muscular recovery...very similar to your typical bodybuilding programs where reps never get below 6 and the intensity is never over 85-90% of the 1RM load. So, to your credit, most people do not and probably will not ever truly experience the over training syndrome.

    However, if you want to see if it exists, and experience it, I will gladly design you a training program to achieve that, and despite your best attempts to sleep 10 hours a night, consume 5000 calories of quality foods, you will experience central fatigue, and you will feel like ass.

    Edit: forgot to put the "not" in above.
    I was sort of hoping you'd reply. It depends on how you define over training. If you define it as what it takes to make me feel trashed no problem, I do that most weeks. If you define it as a point of diminishing returns over a long term, then not so much. I've trained till I felt like hell lots of times and still made progress. That kind of over training, the diminishing returns kind, is only a concern for elite athletes, in my opinion at least. Feeling like crap is just par for the course.

    I do agree with you that over training exists, however I also agree that most people will never hit that particular roadblock. I think the way it's generally bandied about is BS. I do heavy lifting regularly btw, in the 3-5 rep range. I bench nearly 300 lb and I'm 46 and weigh less than 200 lb, I also squat & deadlift over 400, and I never did either before about 3 years ago, so I'm not just blowing smoke, I do have first hand experience with working in the 85-90% range. I don't think I've ever experienced over training. I've limped out of the gym many days but I've continued to pull ahead regardless. I couldn't always bench 300 or squat 400, it took a lot of misery to get there, but obviously I've yet to hit that point of diminishing returns. Then again I'm no elite athlete, just a determined gym rat.

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    [QUOTE=Celorza;3958762]I don't argue anymore with people who have nothing to do but worrying instead of reading. I was gonna simply state some of the points he mentioned, but he had already done it . Simply if you don't believe it exists, why even ask in the forums if you are not gonna allow yourself to stand corrected? Read up more on it yourself, and if you still don't believe in it's existence do as you very well please. Easy as that buddy ! Just don't try to bash away other opinions since YOU did ask for them...question all you want, but be prepared to either ignore everything said (you fit that profile) or learn and stand corrected. Nothing wrong with either.[/QUOTED

    I didn't ask for anyone's opinion, I offered mine. Are you paying attention at all or are you just confused?

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    Quote Originally Posted by compudog View Post
    I was sort of hoping you'd reply. It depends on how you define over training. If you define it as what it takes to make me feel trashed no problem, I do that most weeks. If you define it as a point of diminishing returns over a long term, then not so much. I've trained till I felt like hell lots of times and still made progress. That kind of over training, the diminishing returns kind, is only a concern for elite athletes, in my opinion at least. Feeling like crap is just par for the course.

    I do agree with you that over training exists, however I also agree that most people will never hit that particular roadblock. I think the way it's generally bandied about is BS. I do heavy lifting regularly btw, in the 3-5 rep range. I bench nearly 300 lb and I'm 46 and weigh less than 200 lb, I also squat & deadlift over 400, and I never did either before about 3 years ago, so I'm not just blowing smoke, I do have first hand experience with working in the 85-90% range. I don't think I've ever experienced over training. I've limped out of the gym many days but I've continued to pull ahead regardless. I couldn't always bench 300 or squat 400, it took a lot of misery to get there, but obviously I've yet to hit that point of diminishing returns. Then again I'm no elite athlete, just a determined gym rat.
    I respect that, and tend to agree, and think we may just be arguing semantics. I've worked with high level athletes, and people with lots of time and money who just wanted to train like athletes, and that is when the concern enters...as you said. A combination of longer training days, multiple modes of CNS demanding training (heavy lifting, dynamic lifting, sprinting, plyometrics, etc.), and in some cases, the desire to live like a rockstar at the same time can often be a bad combination.

    Now, I think rather than arguing overtraining, we should perhaps start up a conversation regarding autoregulation for non-elite athletes. Basically, how can we use biofeedback (such as HRV, grip strength, groin squeeze strength, body temp, etc.) to better "listen" to our bodies. He/she who autoregulates the best is often the most successful at training.

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS

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    Okay so the answer to the second part of the question I had was as long as I'm eating good quality meals and get restful sleep I will be able to kick it up and work my lacking body parts more in a week?

    Or will this counter act protein synthesis?

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    uuuuh.... i squat 3x week on madcows 5x5. i even do it while weight loss is my goal. it takes a lot more than that to "over train"

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    Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post
    Okay so the answer to the second part of the question I had was as long as I'm eating good quality meals and get restful sleep I will be able to kick it up and work my lacking body parts more in a week?

    Or will this counter act protein synthesis?
    Sure. Muscles are highly plastic with regards to their ability to recover and adapt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post

    Now, I think rather than arguing overtraining, we should perhaps start up a conversation regarding autoregulation for non-elite athletes. Basically, how can we use biofeedback (such as HRV, grip strength, groin squeeze strength, body temp, etc.) to better "listen" to our bodies. He/she who autoregulates the best is often the most successful at training.

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    Actually Jason, I steer a bit clear of getting into the science end of training, but like to read it and or hear about tests or stuff that went thru the labs, if not for anything else, it is interesting to me.
    If you could, elaborate on the grip thing and or irridation (is it called?) If you have any links or extra reads, could you point me towards them?
    Some people may be surprised to know, that when the grip gives/breaks or loosens in the deadlift, your form almost crashes as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    Actually Jason, I steer a bit clear of getting into the science end of training, but like to read it and or hear about tests or stuff that went thru the labs, if not for anything else, it is interesting to me.
    If you could, elaborate on the grip thing and or irridation (is it called?) If you have any links or extra reads, could you point me towards them?
    Some people may be surprised to know, that when the grip gives/breaks or loosens in the deadlift, your form almost crashes as well.
    Exactly right in the bold.

    As for grip strength, its mostly a measure of neurological function, similar to a vertical jump. I don't have any lit off hand, mostly just going off what I've learned in class or from talking to the UK Football sport scientist...but I can get some and post it up in the coming weeks.

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    I dont know if anyone said this, but over reaching is when you basically over train but get enough calories. For over training to be over training in the sense where it causes a negative effect on your body and mind, it has to be done on a regular basis for a longer amount of time.

    Over reaching example- very intense training 3-5 days a week for a week or two with a good diet. Could even be 3 or 4 weeks if diet is good.

    Over training example with a good diet- very intense training 6-7 days a week for a month+. Signs would be constant fatigue and injury. Ovbiously any training of something thats injured is over training that area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post
    If you take in the right amount of calories to energize each workout is there a such thing as over training?

    Working arms three times a week
    Legs twice
    Back twice
    Etc..
    Cardio is awefully hard to over train on but bodybuilding /aesthetic work is very easy. Your cns will eventually make strength losses due to being over worked or over trained which will in turn make your workouts suffer.

    Stop being baby's and take a week or 2 off the gym completely and give your cns some rest! You'll thank me for it.

    I wont get into the joint issues / hormone issues. Those should be commen sense.but....

    Who says you can't workout legs back or arms 2 or 3x a week. Lets take me for example....I work ABS 2x a week. My friend works them 4x a week. He can still grow at 4x but I can't. I've tried it and that's what you need to do if it's your goal to do legs 2x a week or w/e . I personally do deads (not stiff legged) on shoulder day and more legs on leg day and I'm growing like a mofo
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    I know Jason is right and I agree that it does exist; that said, I'll echo the sentiment about 95% of trainees not ever experiencing it.

    From MY EXPERIENCE, what people cite as overtraining are simply poor choices outside of the gym leading to suboptimal or even downright bad recovery. Diet being the #1 culprit.
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    Also looking at what some others said- doing ONE muscle group 2 or 3 times a week is ok (if you do it right) but doing EVERY muscle group 2 or 3 times a week, and you will either over train or your workouts arnt intense enough.

    And when i say do it right, that means not max intensity 3 days a week for months straight.

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    I workout 5 days a week and separate every muscle group except bi and tri.

    I've had great results and growing substantially
    The reason I started this post was to see if my lacking body parts (arms 17.5in) could be worked out more to catch up with the rest of my body without negative effects on growth as well as joins and ligaments.

    Started trying to work them out 3x a week and I just felt by the third day I had nothing left in them... If you catching my problem is that over training, my diet is on point so I'm not concerned with not having the right calories.

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    No training your arms 3,4,5 or even 7 times a week will likely not result in over training. You may have some peripheral fatigue in the limbs, and your arm muscles may not recover fully, but no amount of bicep curls or triceps work will over tax the CNS

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    No training your arms 3,4,5 or even 7 times a week will likely not result in over training. You may have some peripheral fatigue in the limbs, and your arm muscles may not recover fully, but no amount of bicep curls or triceps work will over tax the CNS
    * looks at people doing 21s ,hammer curls and reverse curls everyday* you sure? Haha. Depends on the person and how many years he /she has under the belt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post
    * looks at people doing 21s ,hammer curls and reverse curls everyday* you sure? Haha. Depends on the person and how many years he /she has under the belt.
    I'm in no way saying training them everyday will produce the desired results, just that you won't induce overtraining syndrome doing arms 7 days a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post
    I workout 5 days a week and separate every muscle group except bi and tri.

    I've had great results and growing substantially
    The reason I started this post was to see if my lacking body parts (arms 17.5in) could be worked out more to catch up with the rest of my body without negative effects on growth as well as joins and ligaments.

    Started trying to work them out 3x a week and I just felt by the third day I had nothing left in them... If you catching my problem is that over training, my diet is on point so I'm not concerned with not having the right calories.
    Check list right here. Is your diet on point? You said yes so lets check that off. Are you switching up your routine every 4 to 8 weeks? Are you still gaining in other areas? 17.5 in is a pretty good size and nobody knows there genetic limit until they hit it. Do you think that's possible?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post

    Check list right here. Is your diet on point? You said yes so lets check that off. Are you switching up your routine every 4 to 8 weeks? Are you still gaining in other areas? 17.5 in is a pretty good size and nobody knows there genetic limit until they hit it. Do you think that's possible?
    Only been lifting for a yr now so I don't think that's possible to hit my genetic limits. Again there growing just not at as fast of a rate as the rest of the body

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    Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post

    Only been lifting for a yr now so I don't think that's possible to hit my genetic limits. Again there growing just not at as fast of a rate as the rest of the body
    Do you have an idea what your body fat % is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post

    Do you have an idea what your body fat % is?
    13.2 not to high not to low

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'm in no way saying training them everyday will produce the desired results, just that you won't induce overtraining syndrome doing arms 7 days a week.
    I think this is the source of GROSS misunderstanding revertraining. CNS fatigue /= poor growth because of poor programming, in this case doing arms daily.

    Too many people think the latter is overtraining. Good stuff, man. I like your posts.
    Don't worry, man, someday I'ma be nobody too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post

    13.2 not to high not to low
    I'm at 12% ATM and below 9 is hell for me haha

    You've been training for a year now and you're already training biceps 3xa week? Triceps I can understand. They are used so much but you may be doing too much right out the gate.

    Overtraining means different things to different people but let me put it like this... My opinion is 3x a week on biceps /triceps is a bit much for a beginner. *I think of anyone under 3 years of training a beginner * your body can probably grow at 1x a week more efficiently right now. Later after a couple years your body eventually gets used to the tear and repair mechanics and you can bump it up to 2 to 3 x a week but my best guess is your stimulating them too much. This is not over training. This is just stalled progress. It happens. Time to change things up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post

    I'm at 12% ATM and below 9 is hell for me haha

    You've been training for a year now and you're already training biceps 3xa week? Triceps I can understand. They are used so much but you may be doing too much right out the gate.

    Overtraining means different things to different people but let me put it like this... My opinion is 3x a week on biceps /triceps is a bit much for a beginner. *I think of anyone under 3 years of training a beginner * your body can probably grow at 1x a week more efficiently right now. Later after a couple years your body eventually gets used to the tear and repair mechanics and you can bump it up to 2 to 3 x a week but my best guess is your stimulating them too much. This is not over training. This is just stalled progress. It happens. Time to change things up.
    Makes alot of since! I def look at my self as a beginner so all try and see how one day a week on arms works and go from there.

    Thanks for all the help to everyone on this site alot of knowledge!!

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    imho over training is not so much physical as hormonal and neurological.

    meaning your muscels can still perform the required tasks, they could potentially get bigger or even stronger

    but

    your cns is burned so it always feels like torture

    your hormones are out of whack so you get fat deposits, digestion and assimilation of nutrients is poor you lack drive etc.

    in the end always need a break from something hard

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    It has so much more to do with systemic inflammation and the immune system, the neuroendocrine response, and CNS neurotransmittors than just under eating/supplementing.

    There is a wealth of information on pubmed.gov regarding over training causes, autoregulation, and treatments. Just search the term "overtraining syndrome"

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    Im sure you will agree with @Assooneyeonig in that over training while a real phenomena it isnt as much of a real occurance as the interwebs would have you believe. Meaning when you see a log of someone complaining of lethargy and hitting a wall in training, in most cases this is simply not enough calories and rest. Personally unless someone us constantly training near their 1rm it wiuld be quite a challenge for them to exerpience overtraining. Think of pro athletes and the amount of work load they go through in any given day. This is where programming comes in with overtraining
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

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    Edit: nevermind. What I said was essentially already said. I guess thats what I get for not reading the whole thread before responding
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

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