Push/Pull Concept I Came up With
- 09-19-2004, 04:16 AM
Push/Pull Concept I Came up With
I started thinking about this based on how my bench and military press seem to make the biggest strength improvements when I train them on separate days.
The whole idea is for the upper body to be split into Vertical Push day, Vertical Pull day, Horizontal Push Day, and Horizontal Pull day. Lower body would be separated into Push Day, and Pull Day. No arm day, as arms will be trained indirectly with upper body.
This will follow a 1 day on, 1 day off split as follows. Horizontal Push, off, Vetical Pull, off, Lower Body Pull (abs), off, Vertical Push, off, Horizontal Pull, off, Lower Body Push (abs), off, Repeat.
Horizontal Push Day: Mostly centered around the chest. Exercise choices: Flat Bench, Low Incline Press, Slight Decline Press. Also iso movements for the chest: DB flyes, cable flyes, machine flyes, cable crossover. 6-8 total sets.
Vertical Pull Day: Lats. Exercise choices: Pullups (various grips), Machine or Hammer Pulldowns. Iso movement: cable, DB, or barbell pullover. 6-8 total sets.
Lower Body Pull Day: Lower Back, hamstrings, traps, abs. Exercise choices: Deadlift, Stiff Leg Deadlift, Leg curl (seated, lying, or standing), hyper-extensions, Power-Clean, Rack Clean, Shrugs, hanging leg raises, vertical chair leg raises, decline reverse crunches. 6 sets + 2 sets of shrugs + 2 sets of abs.
Vertical Push Day: Mostly centered around delts. Exercise choices: Military Press, DB or Arnold Press, Dips, Front lateral raise (cable or DB), Side lateral raise(cable, DB, or lying on your side on an incline bench with a DB ). 6-8 total sets.
Horizontal Pull Day: Lats, rhomboids, traps. Exercise choices: Bent Barbell Row, Bent Dumbell Row (I've found that if you row 2 dumbells at once it hits the rhomboids/traps a lot more, and if you do it the conventional 1 dumbell at a time while supporting yourself with your free arm on a bench, it really hits the lats ), Cable Row, Hammer Row(any variation). 6-8 total sets.
Lower Body Push Day: Quads, abs. Exercise choices: Back Squat, Front Squat, Smith Squat( ), Lunge, Step ups, Leg Extension, Abductor, Adductor, Decline Situp with weight, Ab Machine, Cable Crunch. 6 sets + 2 sets adductor/abductor + 2 sets abs.
This leaves 5 days between your next Pull or Push or Lower Body Day (which will work a lot of the same muscles in different ways), and 11 days between the next time you'll work the same muscles in the same way.
- 09-19-2004, 12:44 PM
Wow, I like that alot. I think I may follow your lead on that one. I'm a big fan of the push/pull/leg concept, I just don't like the hour long workouts it requires. I'd rather do 30 minutes a workout. This'll let me do that.
09-19-2004, 10:03 PM
I like the way you have the upper body push/pull days set up, matching horizontal push with vertical pulling and vice versa. I will probably give that idea a shot! The concept would work with a lot of different split setups.
One concern, I think most people would want more frequent quad workouts. One day in 11 just isn't enough. I think the lower body days should be leg days. You could still have one that emphasized pulling and one that emphasized pushing. Just provide the option of doing both in the same workout.
09-20-2004, 05:38 AM
I was thinking about this a little bit as I wrote it. I've never actually tried this split, so I'm sure there will be tweaking issues. I was thinking the same thing about delts. Maybe add in iso quad movements like leg extensions on Lower Body Pull Day, and side lateral raises on Horizontal Push Day. And I'm not sure where calves fit in ? I guess on whatever day(s) you have enough energy after training everything else.Originally Posted by Cardinal
And where are the rest of the replies??? It took me a hot minute to write all that.
09-20-2004, 04:22 PM
I like increased frequency, and so that would not be ideal IMO. However, I do like doing 2 upper and 2 lower body workouts a week. This would consist of either 1 tension and 1 power each, or similar to what you have set up, with 1 vertical and 1 horizontal as well as a push/pull leg days. Thus the split would be like this:
Day 1: Vertical Upper Day. Primarily shoulder type pressing movements as well as pullups, chins, etc.
Day 2: Push Leg Day: Squat, Leg press, etc.
Day 4 Horizontal Upper: Bench, Rows
Day 5: Pull Leg: SLDL or regular Deads, glute-ham raises, pullthroughs etc.
Your setup is good, but Im not the biggest fan of once every 11 days training. I like keeping volume a bit lower and increasing frequency. But give it a whirl.
09-20-2004, 05:07 PM
09-21-2004, 02:04 AM
I also have been training this way and i have gotten my greatest results so far. So i am going to stick with it for awhile.
I train everyday and when i feel like taking a day off i do so and pick up where i left off. I periodize when my strenght allows. I start with a 4-6 rep range and i push the weight until i can get 10 reps (I can usually increase a rep every other training session on cycle). If i reach my goal i go back down to heavy weights again. When PCT began i dropped down to the heavy weights in all exercises and am currently holding all my poundage steady.
Day 1 3 sets ea.
Bent over row
Snatch as a warm up for power clean.
Day 2 Quadriceps
Squats 3 sets of 10
Front Squats 2 sets 4-6
Leg Extension 2 sets 10
Pullups 3 sets ea.
Biceps 2 barbell and a heavy preacher set.
Day 4 hamstrings lower back
Stiff leg DL
The upper body days now get reversed
Bent over row
Snatch as a warm up for power clean.
Day 6 Quadriceps
Squats 3 sets of 10
Front Squats 2 sets 4-6
Leg Extension 2 sets 10
Day 7 Upper Body
Day 8 hamstrings lower back
Dead lifts 3 sets 10
Stiff leg DL 2 sets 6
Leg Curl 2 sets 8-10
"there is no overtraining... There is only undereating!"
09-21-2004, 10:24 PM
About time SS. Stop being "beta ho' " and get your own testers now
If I'll do your program what do I get for that?
09-22-2004, 01:41 AM
09-22-2004, 10:46 AM
Now, THAT is a different training style.
Over the last 10 years, I've tried just about every kind of thing there is out there, as change is what makes one grow. Well, this is something new. To me at least.
Congrats dude, for coming up with something both original AND that has real potential for results.
The best thing would be if those of us trying it comment on their results instead of letting this thread become forgotten.
09-26-2004, 02:42 AM
I'm gonna start tomorrow
Does anybody want me to keep a log?
I've taken the past 3 days off. Two days I couldn't sleep for ****, so I didn't see a point in training. Last night I slept like a baby for 12 hours, but by the time I woke up it was too late to go to the gym before work. The day before that I only trained abs. So I haven't worked a major muscle group in 4 days, tomorrow will be 5.
A couple things I've thought about:
I'm not always gonna do 1 on, 1 off. I'll probably do 2 on, 1 off sometimes, depending on how I feel, work schedule, ect.
If I do cardio at all (which I need to start doing anyway), it'll probably be done on off days, but not the day before lower body days.
Any suggestions or input?
09-26-2004, 11:25 AM
Well, that is a different approach. I am not sure I like the lower training frequency however, but it could work for a bit as almost anything different does for a while.
Personally I have made my best gains on a very simple DC style workout.
I do chest/shoulders/tri's/traps ((rest day))
biceps/ back (width and thickness) /quads/hams/calves. ((rest day))
repeat with different exercises for 3 cycles. (I put in extra rest when I think I need it. One work set with two rest pause cycles per exercise and I always chart the poundages, always increasing the weight or I change the exercise. Using this teqnique since starting my comeback the beginning of this year (all legal I might add) has me significantly stronger than ever at 20lbs below my all time high weight, I did gain 30lbs or more of muscle. (this was mainly muscle memory I used to be a really big overjuiced dude that trained hard but not smart.
I allow 15 breaths in between the rest pause sets for all but squats or deads with them I just wait till I feel I can hit it again hard, or stop seeing stars lol.
I'm not going to go into the whole DC copncept as I am sure you know of it and could certainally look it up if you like. I have tried most all of the programs out there and I am REALLY TOTALLY convinced this is the best way to train.
I use basic mostly compound exercises no kickbacks or anything like that, deads, bench, CG bench, dips, military press etc. I am not going to even think about muscle shape until I exceed 20" on the pipes.
As long as this is working for you and you are moving forward use your program, but if it does not pan out for you change up and don't spin your wheels longer than needed.
If you have not tried DC training give it an honest shot, it's fun watching your numbers climb up and up. It really works, I don't know what else to say, I know you know your nutrition and supps, and other factors covered.
Good Luck Bro,
BTW I downloaded a program via kazaa lite++ called Omni Form 5.0 that makes it really easy to create some cool workout logs.
I should scan mine and share them, it is really amazing how fast your strength (and size) goes up with this system.
09-27-2004, 06:34 AM
Started with Vertical Pull:
1 set overhand medium-wide grip pullups (squeeze at top, slow eccentric), 13 reps
(2-2.5 min rest between each set)
1 set neutral grip pulllups, 10 reps, same tempo
2 sets cable pullovers, 135lbs, 5 reps, 4 reps
2 sets cable pullover superset w/ wide pulldowns; 1st set 70lb pulloverX6, wide pulldowns 130X5; 2nd set 70lb pulloverX6, wide pulldowns 100X7
1 set neutral pulldown 100X6, very slow negatives
1 set oly bar pullover (just 45lb bar)X5 very slow motion throughout, superset with neutral pulldowns 100X5, very slow
60 sec. stetch for each lat (hang from pullup bar one arm at a time), and 60sec. bicep/delt/chest stretch (hold smith machine bar with arms behind body and lean forward hard)
Best pump I've had in my lats in a long time, without over-pumping my arms and hindering my workout
I'm thinking of adding one set of curls and one set of reverse curls to pull days
09-28-2004, 05:31 PM
SS, I was in a bit of a hurry when I posted above, looking through your program again I see that you are hitting some groups again indirectly during your other workouts. Keep us posted on your progress.
09-28-2004, 11:42 PM
supersoldier. i read the program and i like it. although there is not enough squatting (i just say that since i'm used to squatting 3-4 days a week at times!).
i think adding one set of iso exercises like you mention might be a good idea. just 1
09-29-2004, 01:37 AM
So much for 1 on 1 off...
I ended up doing horizontal push on Day 1 as well, about 5 hours after.
2 minute rest intervals
Flat bench: 245X7 maybe could have gotten 8, but no spot
Incline Bench: 195X8 - not to failure, no spot
Hammer Wide Press: 3 dubs and a quarter, 6 reps; 3 dubs, 6 reps
Machine flye, don't remember the weight but it was almost the whole stack for the first set, 2nd set was a bit less; 2 sets of 4-5
Decline DB flye superset with pressing after failure: 50X5+5
Hard stretching 60 sec each for each pec, and delts
So Vertical Pull and Horizontal Push were both done on Day 1
Day 2 Lower Body Pull
Slight Decline Situps: X22
Low Decline Situps: X10
One leg hyper extensions: BWX15 each leg
Machine leg press calf ext.: Rack + (3) 7.5lb stack weightsX20
Standing Calf Raise Machine: Rack + (1) 7.5lb stack X 20
This was supposed to be 1 on 1 off in theory, but I ended up doing 2 workouts in one day, and then a third the next day. I had a couple days off work and slept really good and really long, so I figured what the heck. Today was off, and I only slept about 3 hrs, so tomorrow will be off too. Hopefully I'll get 10hrs + sleep later.
11-06-2004, 06:00 AM
Supersoldier and Scottyo,
I just wanted to tell you that I've been following Scottyo's modified version of Supersoldiers original program for a little over a month, and this split is the best split I've ever done. The time muscle recovery and the balance of workout days is amazing. It also fits very well into a seven day workout schedule. This is my current split:
Sunday- Leg Push (squats, hack squats, leg extension)
Monday- Vertical Push/Pull (Pull Ups, Arnolds, Lat Pulls, Upright Rows)
Wednesday- Leg Pull (Deadlift, Stiff legs, hamstring curl, calf raises)
Friday- Horizontal Push/Pull (Dumbell Press, Bent Rows, Flys, Cable Rows)
Thanks guys for posting this split. I'd recommend it to anyone.
11-08-2004, 06:49 PM
Wow. This push/pull concept "you came up with" managed to take a concept espoused for the last 10 years by Ian King and significantly decrease the effectiveness of it.
11-09-2004, 02:45 AM
[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo]Wow. This push/pull concept "you came up with" managed to take a concept espoused for the last 10 years by Ian King and significantly decrease the effectiveness of it.[/QUOTE
Whats that split? I've never heard of it. I've tried virtually every split out there (that I've seen anyways), and this definitly is the best one for me.
11-09-2004, 03:39 PM
Gee I always thought Ian Kings split was based on separating hip dominant (deadlift) movements from quad dominant (squat) movements.
Fear and Loathing is one of my favorite movies (and books), why don't you consider changing your handle as to not associate yourself with something intelligent, douchebag.
11-09-2004, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo
Mr. first time Poster, Dr. Gonzo;
You need to validate that dismissing statement with an explanation of Why it's not good. Users are getting effective results, and the contrary argument is?
This is not BB.com; hit and and run is not the standard here, explain,please.
11-10-2004, 03:55 PM
Easy kids, play nice.
I apologize for being the plagiarism police on my first post...but I find it a bit disheartening when people claim a concept as their own when it is a blatant rip off of another strength coach.
Why yes, supersoldier, you renamed the phrase "Hip Dom't" to "Pull", and the phrase "Quad Dom't" to "Push" so I guess the concept is now yours.
For those of you not familiar with Ian King's works, he often advises a split divided up into 6 sections:
Hip Dom't Legs
Quad Dom't Legs
King, however, chooses 2 or more of these divisions for each workout, thereby increasing the frequency of each body part to be trained which allows for a significant training response. Direct arm work is used when appropriate, usually divided up into movement patterns as well.
This is a concept I have used with great success for myself and clients for about 4 or 5 years now, so yes, I like it.
SS, you've now admitted familiarity with King's works...so I suppose that rules out coincidence...
01-29-2006, 08:52 PM
This thread died... =/
anyway i was going to say i would test your workout =]
PM me. I have been looking for a push/pull/leg split and yours seems to be pretty good as long as i added more legs
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