Muscle Soreness Overrated?

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    Muscle Soreness Overrated?


    Is muscle soreness overrated and an overall lacking indicator of muscle fatigue?

    The reason why i ask is because when I did the Insanity workouts i was CRAZY sore for about a week 1/2 - 2 weeks straight...then it all of a sudden went away. I worked some of the same muscles over and over. 6 days on 1 day off.

    I was always taught to not work out if you are really sore because it's a sign of your body telling you it's time to rest.

    What do you guys think of this? Anybody know of any scientific studies on muscles soreness?

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    You are correct... DOMS are NOT a good indicator of muscle damage/recovery
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    this whole time ive been a fool! so say if i work out Monday...and i'm still sore by Wednesday, is it okay to still work out?
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    Too long to type out on my iPhone but muscle soreness has more to do with the sodium-potassium pump, acidosis, and lactate. So no, not a good indicator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxer12 View Post
    this whole time ive been a fool! so say if i work out Monday...and i'm still sore by Wednesday, is it okay to still work out?
    It's hard to say... The only true way to know is to have a muscle biopsy taken, which is obviously not an option. Actually one of the simplest indicators of muscle damage is strength. If you notice your strength is impaired then it's pretty safe to assume you haven't fully recovered.
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    To be honest i am never hurting past 3 days of training that body part, and thats going all out, HEAVY weights ... if your hurting (aching) after weeks and weeks of training it, then i would say you have done damage or your not fully recovered.

    Muscle aching isn't an indication of muscle damage, however i think the LENGTH of time can be a sign of damage, IMO if you muscle is sore after a couple of weeks then you need to have a rest, remember your muscle doesn't grow in the gym.

    But i'm sure someone will tell me how wrong i am

    Ryan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collateral View Post
    remember your muscle doesn't grow in the gym.

    But i'm sure someone will tell me how wrong i am

    Ryan
    yeah totally wrong brah! I never leave the gym so mine grow in the gym!!! I sleep in the Squat rack!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Too long to type out on my iPhone but muscle soreness has more to do with the sodium-potassium pump, acidosis, and lactate. So no, not a good indicator.
    Lactate has nothing to do with delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). Lactate is cleared from the muscles within 1-2hr post workout and is cleared from the body within 4 hrs. Plus, lactate does not damage the muscle cell. The burning sensation you feel during exercise is due to the dissociation of the acid from lactate; however, the clearance of that acid is also usually accomplished fairly quickly as well.

    DOMs is due more to damage to the muscle and surrounding tissue, the inflammation that ensues, and possibly due to the leaking out of certain metabolites through the damaged muscle cell membrane interacting with afferent nerves. Remember, we do not feel muscles - the interaction of nerves with movement, temperature, and molecules is processed as the brain as "feeling".

    In response to the OP - DOMs is not a good indicator of growth or a successful workout. DOMs for several days means you did too much too soon, are poorly conditioned, or a combination of both. And eccentric movements are the biggest cause of DOMS

    Br
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    I'm training to enter the Army right now, and twice a week I train with other future soldiers in a program run by a local recruiter. One thing we do all the time is overhead claps, where we put our arms out to the side and clap over our heads. We'll sometimes do upwards of 400 of these IN A ROW. One day I did 600+ in the 1.5 hour session. I was sore for days. Everything I did that involved upper body gave me another shoulder pump for 3 days.

    If you think those make anyone stronger, you're crazy. . .and you probably work for the Army. I'm sure if I ever have to run 10 miles carrying my weapon I'll be happy I did them, but it's a good example of how soreness is NOT a good indicator of potential growth or strength.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TateFTW View Post
    I'm training to enter the Army right now, and twice a week I train with other future soldiers in a program run by a local recruiter. One thing we do all the time is overhead claps, where we put our arms out to the side and clap over our heads. We'll sometimes do upwards of 400 of these IN A ROW. One day I did 600+ in the 1.5 hour session. I was sore for days. Everything I did that involved upper body gave me another shoulder pump for 3 days.

    If you think those make anyone stronger, you're crazy. . .and you probably work for the Army. I'm sure if I ever have to run 10 miles carrying my weapon I'll be happy I did them, but it's a good example of how soreness is NOT a good indicator of potential growth or strength.
    Ouch. But those will condition you to be able to carry an object over your head for an extended period.
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    You'd be surprised how much overhead stuff you'll do in the military. Overhead strength has been vital for me over my 11 years. Example, zodiac boats are damn heavy no matter how many are lifting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    Lactate has nothing to do with delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). Lactate is cleared from the muscles within 1-2hr post workout and is cleared from the body within 4 hrs. Plus, lactate does not damage the muscle cell. The burning sensation you feel during exercise is due to the dissociation of the acid from lactate; however, the clearance of that acid is also usually accomplished fairly quickly as well.

    DOMs is due more to damage to the muscle and surrounding tissue, the inflammation that ensues, and possibly due to the leaking out of certain metabolites through the damaged muscle cell membrane interacting with afferent nerves. Remember, we do not feel muscles - the interaction of nerves with movement, temperature, and molecules is processed as the brain as "feeling".

    In response to the OP - DOMs is not a good indicator of growth or a successful workout. DOMs for several days means you did too much too soon, are poorly conditioned, or a combination of both. And eccentric movements are the biggest cause of DOMS

    Br
    Didn't catch the doms part. Prolly because I just got done discussing with someone about lactic acid and how it's not in and of itself the cause for the burn, but is actually there for retarding purposes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Didn't catch the doms part. Prolly because I just got done discussing with someone about lactic acid and how it's not in and of itself the cause for the burn, but is actually there for retarding purposes.
    Good point.

    Lactic acid quickly dissociated into lactate and H+ (the acid) after its produced, and assuming conditions in the blood are right (which they normally are) most is transported out of the cell. Once outside in the interstitial fluid (fluid between cells for those who don't know) the H+ can actually impinge upon afferent nerves and cause some of the burning sensation. In addition, as H+ build in the interstitium, extracellular K builds up and decreases the excitability of the muscle fiber. Inorganic phosphate (Pi) as ATP is broken down into ADP and Pi is also another theory behind the burning sensation.

    Lactate and H, fascinating stuff. My thesis research was heavy on that.

    Br
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    Zir nailed this topic completely. I am reluctant to doing so now since most people don't care/are too ignorant to believe anything other than broscience.

    +1
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    I like the occasional muscle soreness anyway if I switch something up, lets me know I hit the area(s) i was targeting at that time, and I've never noticed a decline in strength or ability to accomplish what I want in the gym next time I go.
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    Lactic acid is a by product of glucose fermentation during anaerobic cellular respiration. There's not enough oxygen during resistance training to be delivered to fully utilize the krebs cycle in mitochondria. That's all cleared out within hours of a workout. It will cause some level of cramping or soreness due to membrane potentials imbalance shirt term so stretching or a light walk will help clear it from the body. What you're thinking if, and described here as DOMS is inflammation and microtears in muscle tissue. Granted its usually a sign of a good workout but not positively necessary for progress.

    Self rule of thumb- if I'm sore on a body part for more than 2 days, somethings wrong. And its not so much what I'm doing now but something I did to make it happen. In my experience, what is considered DOMS is a sign of overtraining that day and improper preventative action from additional damage. Stretching does not aid recovery rather a preventive measure.
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    I'm pretty sure thats why that Insanity program gives you a "recover week" where you doing nothing but eat clean and rest for a week. Never tried it out but looked into it.

    BTW the reason for the first couple weeks you were really sore then not at all is because your Nerves were adapting to all that
    new stress. Anyone new to working out usually the first month or two it is the person.s nerves building up tollerence, then the real muscle starts to come in. That is why, typically, most people start to see "mirror results" between the 8-10 week mark

    If it were not for nerves being attached to our muscles A. We wouldn't feel that lactic acid burn B. You could work out untill you died.lol

    I used this post for a previous article about muscle soreness

    What usually works for me, and it has been working well, is "listening" to my body and trying to gauge when I have recovered enough to train those muscles again. It is important to note that because everyones body is different, each persons recovery time will differ as well. What is great tho is that with time your bodys recover time will decrease and allow you to work a muscle 2 maybe even 3xs a week. Know that smaller muscles like your biceps will recover the quickest, and larger muscles like your back and legs will take longer.

    Arnold even says in his book (bodybuilding encyclopedia) to be carefull not to put extra stress on your muscles by doing lots of sports or chores like yard work so your body can fully heal.
    "Don't run when you can walk. Dont walk when you can stand Dont stand when you can sit. Don't sit when you can lay down"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stri8ted25 View Post
    I'm pretty sure thats why that Insanity program gives you a "recover week" where you doing nothing but eat clean and rest for a week. Never tried it out but looked into it.

    BTW the reason for the first couple weeks you were really sore then not at all is because your Nerves were adapting to all that
    new stress. Anyone new to working out usually the first month or two it is the person.s nerves building up tollerence, then the real muscle starts to come in. That is why, typically, most people start to see "mirror results" between the 8-10 week mark

    If it were not for nerves being attached to our muscles A. We wouldn't feel that lactic acid burn B. You could work out untill you died.lol

    I used this post for a previous article about muscle soreness
    There's also a tactic for fat loss that claims taking a whole week off, eating clean, then starting up again would be like taking a step back for two steps forward. It's obviously more detailed then that but it crossed my mind. Back to topic- i agree, if these are new motions utilizing different muscles or just changing how they contract will cause that initial first time soreness which is perfectly normal. Sometimes ill train a body part twice with minimal soreness still present but I've learned my limits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stri8ted25 View Post

    BTW the reason for the first couple weeks you were really sore then not at all is because your Nerves were adapting to all that
    new stress. Anyone new to working out usually the first month or two it is the person.s nerves building up tollerence, then the real muscle starts to come in. That is why, typically, most people start to see "mirror results" between the 8-10 week mark

    If it were not for nerves being attached to our muscles A. We wouldn't feel that lactic acid burn B. You could work out untill you died.lol

    I used this post for a previous article about muscle soreness

    Those are afferent nerves - nerves that report information to the CNS.

    The neural adaptations to the first 2-12 weeks of resistance training are via efferent (motor) nerves and through the CNS. Motor nerves carry the message to tell muscle to contract, and the CNS provides the set of commands. As the CNS "gets better" at the movement, a better command will be initiated, and will manifest in an increase in strength/power/coordination.

    Br
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    Learn something new everyday. I was always of the notion that if I left the gym and wasn't sore the next day, it somehow meant that I wasn't working hard enough.
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    Learn something new everyday. I was always of the notion that if I left the gym and wasn't sore the next day, it somehow meant that I wasn't working hard enough.
    Yammp, The more you know the more you grow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Learn something new everyday. I was always of the notion that if I left the gym and wasn't sore the next day, it somehow meant that I wasn't working hard enough.
    common misconception.
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
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    I think the perpetuation of this myth is a large part of the popularity of bodypart splits with young trainees. They get more soreness if they only hit something once a week for over an hour than if they hit it with the same volume but split up through 2-3 sessions, and they think the extra soreness means they're getting a "better" workout. Lots of wasted time that could be spent squatting, dead lifting, benching, and RECOVERING.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TateFTW View Post
    I think the perpetuation of this myth is a large part of the popularity of bodypart splits with young trainees. They get more soreness if they only hit something once a week for over an hour than if they hit it with the same volume but split up through 2-3 sessions, and they think the extra soreness means they're getting a "better" workout. Lots of wasted time that could be spent squatting, dead lifting, benching, and RECOVERING.
    It's mainly from the mainstream BB'ing magazines.
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    ^ this.

    I had a friend who used to boast about how intense he was for working out for 3 hours. It was a known thing to dilute everything he says 4 fold so how much truth there is in the statement is questionable.

    My response was always something of "That's cool, dude. I like to be efficient with my time and not overtrain."
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    Here's the question though...

    I understand the dumba$$es that train for 3 hours, once a week and all and get sore... But I've been getting sore A LOT lately, and I mean sore, as in I can't really stand to do cardio after leg training day for instance. And I do DC workout, so it's not like I don't train the muscles, hell, I hit them all twice a week, and am in and out of the gym in like 40 minutes, so it's not like I'm not being efficient. I am also following the routine pretty darn well, and doing what is suggested.

    So the question is, how the heck am I getting sore?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    Here's the question though...

    I understand the dumba$$es that train for 3 hours, once a week and all and get sore... But I've been getting sore A LOT lately, and I mean sore, as in I can't really stand to do cardio after leg training day for instance. And I do DC workout, so it's not like I don't train the muscles, hell, I hit them all twice a week, and am in and out of the gym in like 40 minutes, so it's not like I'm not being efficient. I am also following the routine pretty darn well, and doing what is suggested.

    So the question is, how the heck am I getting sore?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but DC utilizes a lot of negatives, failure, and rest pause sets, correct?

    Negatives, failure sets, and such cause a lot of muscular damage, which is also why DC sessions are lower volume and short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but DC utilizes a lot of negatives, failure, and rest pause sets, correct?

    Negatives, failure sets, and such cause a lot of muscular damage, which is also why DC sessions are lower volume and short.
    You're correct.
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    I did DC for about a year. Every day I woke up feeling like I was hit by an 18-wheeler. I really like it but don't recommend it all too highly.
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
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    What is DC and what is the benefit?
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    It claims to be fastest way to put on the most mass in the shortest routine cycle. Here's my take
    Pros: Lift heavy, easy to track and follow, has its own culture per say, great for putting on mass fast
    Good focus on negative reps

    Cons: Harsh on joints, no conditioning, potentially asymmetrical growth, little variation of muscle fiber stimulation
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
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    IMO the soreness shouldn't b to much of an issue as long as you not getting into overtraining. When you stop making gains or hit that plateau ,and you feel like you are still chalanging your body to the max, you should really look at your Diet and Recovery.
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