HELP PLEASE Workout partner is a puss & wont squat help me convince him 2

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    HELP PLEASE Workout partner is a puss & wont squat help me convince him 2


    He has the typical I already have big legs so why squat attitude. I tried to explain to him the the squat, as well as deadlift will promote growth over his entire body. He says every time I squat I hurt my back waaaah .

    I tell him he's using too much weight and using ****ty form, letting his ego get in the way of progress. I tell him that the squat can take years to master but is one of if not THE most important exercise for overall growth.

    I work out in a YMCA so the squat racks are almost always empty since most of the people there are idiots when it comes to knowing how to train.

    Anyways when I squat he goes off to the tread mill with the rest of the pansies. It is almost enough to make me boot him as a partner as I have to question his dedication, but I'd like to help the guy out and other than this issue, he's a good lifting partner.

    Am I wrong here or what? If not speak up and be rough to him I'll show him this thread before our workout

    BTW one of his biggest bitches are his big flabby man boobs, I tell him that squatting will help this in two ways 1 by increasing GH output and 2 more muscle mass will up his metabolism thus burning more calories.

    Like they say, you can lead a horse to water.....

    and yes I am aware that not everyone wants to be huge, but he does!
    Last edited by bigmark1972; 06-24-2004 at 07:28 PM.

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    Time to get a new workout partner.
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    the "the squat will promote growth over the entire body" thing is hardly proven

    fwiw, before people jump down my throat, i have trained as an OLer with squatting up to 4x a week. so, i do squat.

    it has yet to be shown that the GH PULSED output from squats is in fact anabolic to any significant effect (iow, is it enough to make a difference)

    he already said he's happy with his leg size, so if he doesn't want to squat, why SHOULD he?

    i don't have fealty to any particular excercise. they are means to ends, or if competing, sometimes ends in themselves.

    practicing the squat snatch, for example, is something i would recommend to somebody who wants to COMPETE in it. if not, it's a personal choice, with +'s and -'s that may or may not suit the particular athlete.

    squatting is no different.

    i've seen too many stupendous squatters with mediocre (at best) upper bodies to believe the systemic growth thing works across the board.

    i've also seen some guys with great upper body development AND legs who don't squat.

    i lurv squats, and i think they are a cornerstone for STRENGTH athletes, but for your partner. who CARES?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NPursuit
    Time to get a new workout partner.
    Bump
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmark1972
    BTW one of his biggest bitches are his big flabby man boobs, I tell him that squatting will help this in two ways 1 by increasing GH output and 2 more muscle mass will up his metabolism thus burning more calories.

    !
    The problem is, ALL resistant training does this, not just squats.


    The one major benefit of squats (or leg exercises for that matter) is that is taxes the system as both an aerobic and anaerobic activity.


    Overall I agree with jjjd on most points. I love suats and think they are a great exercise if performed properly but they are not magic and your upper body will not explode because you add them in your routine.
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    Just like to add, that its more of an attitude difference. Although you might be mistaken in the overall scheme of things about what squats can do, you seem to have the right attitude to train (ambition, drive, etc..) and your partner does not.
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    Well, I look at like every time I goto the gym I am going to war. You rely on your partner to help you fight and win the battle against the iron. Just when I am to face my biggest enemy, (the squat rack) this guy won't get outta the fox hole and fight.
    I see your point it is more of an attitude but I still say it is one of the best exercises you can do to gain mass.
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    i agree w/ jjd and bobo. if he doesn't wanna squat he doesn't wanna squat. maybe you could try getting him to start deadlifting? i bet he'll love it, it's a lot of legs so I bet he'd be able to go up in poundage fairly quickly, and it will also work his back/core/lots of ****..

    i hear ya about unmotivated workout partners.. having someone to egg you on and call you a ***** for trying to squeek by with a partial is one of the best motivators ..
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    i also agree with john mccallum in that hard work on a mediocre program will always trump mediocre work on a great program

    iow, the muscles don't know what exercises you are doing. the just know tension, and that they have been stressed.

    and one can squat and be a ***** (wimp out), and contrarily only do leg press (or no legs whatsoever) and be a balls to the wall hardcore trainer.

    hard work is hard work.

    that's about it.

    i have a friend who is a navy seal commander (former - he was reactivated for the current conflict, and just got back), a police swat member, and one of the best shots with a handgun or rifle i have ever seen. he's pretty strong (in a wiry, special forces kind of way), got pretty good upper body development, very low bf, and i'm sure he can kill a man with his pinky finger.

    he also doesn't squat. he prefers to run, and doesn't do any lower body weightlifting

    who am i to argue with that?

    squats (unless one is a competitive pl'er) are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

    i think one of the hardest things, painwise, i ever did in sport was the 20 rep squat. maybe not as bad as the marathon (hitting the wall), but BAD.

    as long as i CAN squat, i probably will. i enjoy them in a perverse sort of way. but that's me.

    plus, i want to have a big clean and jerk. so, i squat.
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    I do mine rest pause style ass to floor usually ending up around 20 reps or so. Just got back and I am fighting the urge to puke as I type this. I know what you mean though hard work is hard work period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmark1972
    Just got back and I am fighting the urge to puke as I type this. I know what you mean though hard work is hard work period.
    I've been done for over an hour, and I still wanna puke. Is that bad????


    Anyway, I've got the same problem. My 'lifting partner' (if you could call the ***** such) doesn't want to squat, short-strokes the leg press, etc. And he has the balls to tell me that he wants to be "huge" (his definition, damn sure not mine). But he doesn't need to work legs, according to him.

    I've proven this to him with the measurements, yet he still won't believe me. I outweigh him by 25ish pounds, with 2% lower BF, but our upper body measurements are all within 1/2" of each other. Legs, however, I've got almost 3" on him. The guy's goal is to weigh 215 (which I do), but he won't understand that that's where I've got the weight on him. I do squats religiously every week, and I've gained 7 or so pounds since May, while he's stayed exactly the same. He won't understand that's where the weight is.


    Thankfully though, I go back to school (and lifting by myself) here in about 2 weeks.
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    have him read:

    Super Squats (Randal Strossen)
    Brawn (Stuart McRobert)
    Keys to Progress (John McCallum)

    And if that doesn't convince him, well right him off.... If you are not squatting, and/or deadlifting you are really at a huge disadvantage, and if you are genetically typical, you will never get close to attaining your genetic potential without hard and heavy use of at least one of these lifts.

    Iron Addict
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    i own both super squats and keys to progress.

    the issue is this. i have seen WAY too many very well developed guys who do not squat.

    it is simply a fact that squats are not necessary to gain either significant upper body mass, or lower body mass.

    they are a wonderfully efficient way to do so, and practically a required exercise if one is a strength athlete (although some claim that stepups can substitute for squats - see bulgarian theories, but i digress)

    the guy has said he is happy with his leg development, so he need not squat.

    i have not seen ONE study that shows that squats are necessary for leg growth, or for significant upper body growth. i've also seen several very buff wheelchair bound dudes who don't squat (although it is possible that with spinal cord injury to lower body, the body balancing principle does not kick in. iow, the limiting factor that will not let your upper body get THAT big without concomitant leg growth)

    there is nothing magic about squats or deadlifts. don't get me wrong. i've squatted 4X a week when training for OLing, but that is for specific strength goals.

    muscles only know tension. they do not know exercises.

    and they respond to stress.

    it's that simple
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmark1972
    Well, I look at like every time I goto the gym I am going to war. You rely on your partner to help you fight and win the battle against the iron. Just when I am to face my biggest enemy, (the squat rack) this guy won't get outta the fox hole and fight.
    I see your point it is more of an attitude but I still say it is one of the best exercises you can do to gain mass.
    I train alone at home by preference. With a power cage, you can do any exercise, including squats with your safety bars to spot you. I'm glad I don't require a partner to supply my motivation...

    Greenguy
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    I'm glad I don't require a partner to supply my motivation...
    Ok, I am not going to take that as an insult even though it sounds like one as I myself do not question my motivation and if you were to train with me you would not either.

    I am not going to argue that you absolutely can train alone and get great results. Until you have had a really great lifting partner "help" push you through a workout giviing you the mental help, and a little spot when needed you won't see the point of a good partner either.

    I do not "rely" on him rather I look at him as a tool to help me go deeper into the rabbit hole.

    I've been done for over an hour, and I still wanna puke. Is that bad????
    You obviously know what I am saying here. Anyone who has not puked in or after a squat session could not understand.
    Last edited by bigmark1972; 06-25-2004 at 12:39 PM.
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    I'll throw my 2cents in the mix just because I can n I think squats are great and make the legs grow like weeds, in my case anyway. Sadly enough I hurt my knee and haven't been able to do them in months due to the medical community slacking on all the tests there running to find the problem with me. So I sit here and watch my legs get smaller and I'm not going to work the other leg so it's gets all disproportioned. Damn Damn Damn.

    As for the training partner I workout alone simply because I haven't found anyone as dedicated to training as myself. My friends think I'm nutz because I want to be in such good shape but then they complain when I take my shirt off and the ladies are lookin in my direction Anyway Music is the only partner I've found that will be there day in and day out. If your friend doesn't want to do squats then that's cool your just going to have to dig deeper to get fired up. Lata, J
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    Quote Originally Posted by jminis
    I'll throw my 2cents in the mix just because I can n I think squats are great and make the legs grow like weeds, in my case anyway. Sadly enough I hurt my knee and haven't been able to do them in months due to the medical community slacking on all the tests there running to find the problem with me. So I sit here and watch my legs get smaller and I'm not going to work the other leg so it's gets all disproportioned. Damn Damn Damn.

    As for the training partner I workout alone simply because I haven't found anyone as dedicated to training as myself. My friends think I'm nutz because I want to be in such good shape but then they complain when I take my shirt off and the ladies are lookin in my direction Anyway Music is the only partner I've found that will be there day in and day out. If your friend doesn't want to do squats then that's cool your just going to have to dig deeper to get fired up. Lata, J
    I love squats too!
    I hate training partners (on a regular basis) because I lift according to what I feel...and most times I have a general routine guideline but keep my options open to change things up a bit, and keep it fun.I keep the head phones ons, but always am accesable for a spot.Most of the time I get a partner too much yacking goes on
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    jjjd,

    There is something magic about squats and deadlifts. If you have great genetics and or do LOTS of gear, no they are not needed, nor are they magic. If you are a genetically typical trainee they absolutely train the overall metabolic system to become more efficient at synthesizing muscle tissue. Once upon a time lifter didn't need to see a study to determine if a method had validity or not. They looked to the gym as their lab instead of some poorly conducted study and the dumbass abstract that summarized their findings. Those days seem to be lost to the new generation of lifters. I have seen the magic that squats and deadlifts provide to countless lifters myself included. I never grew worth a **** before I added them so many years ago. Yes, the muscle just needs tension. Leg curls and leg extensions are wonderful squat substitutes. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Iron Addict
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    jjjd,

    Once upon a time lifter didn't need to see a study to determine if a method had validity or not. They looked to the gym as their lab instead of some poorly conducted study and the dumbass abstract that summarized their findings. Those days seem to be lost to the new generation of lifters. I
    Iron Addict
    True, because the new generation are bigger and more ripped. Thank god we evolve....
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    That is mainly because of people with better genetics getting into the game, and more pharmacutical use. Not because it was all learned in a book.

    Many have evolved to the point where a something becomes true because they have read an abstract, or study, not because they have seen or applied it in real life.....

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    I hate to tell you IA, but those abstracts are obtained from real world results in a much better controlled setting than any gym.

    Better genetics getting into the game? Yeah, the increased use of GH, IGF-1, insulin and AAS that were developed DUE to science doens't have anything to do with it. Sorry but the freakish look I see on many of the Mr. Olympia contestants is not from genetics, its the constant improvement and development of new and better methods whether it training or enhancing agents.

    Things don't happen because of some magic formula or some magic bean. There is a scientific reason behind it all.


    "Genetics"... The biggest excuse in this industry....
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    I used to squat all the time and then had a knee inury like jminis....I have this godamn piece of cartilage floating around in my knee cap somewhere and sometimes it gets lodged in a certain way and LOOK THE HELL OUT!!! I can't bend my leg and hardly walk w/o pain...I'm trying to get my insurance company to pay for surgery but its been a fight...

    Anyways, since then I've only done leg presses and I haven't noticed any lack of growth from when I used to do strictly squats...JMO...

    As for deads though....I eat those up...I love the excercise and that one exc. alone has helped me gain A LOT of thickness...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jergo
    I used to squat all the time and then had a knee inury like jminis....I have this godamn piece of cartilage floating around in my knee cap somewhere and sometimes it gets lodged in a certain way and LOOK THE HELL OUT!!! I can't bend my leg and hardly walk w/o pain...I'm trying to get my insurance company to pay for surgery but its been a fight...

    ..

    Many of the top college football programs have discontinued the use of squats just for that reason. Miami, FSU, Georgia, Texas, BYU to name a few....
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    "Genetics"... The biggest excuse in this industry....

    yes, your right, genetics don't matter. You could compete against Coleman or Cutler. After all genetics are just an excuse. Anyone can do it, they just have to apply the great science we have learned and the right pharms and voila! Instant champion....

    Doesn't soud like you have worked with many extreme ecto's. Tell me any of these guys can be great competitors. They just need to apply the right "science" and they too can stand on the posing dias with the big-boys, because after all, genetics are just an excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    "Genetics"... The biggest excuse in this industry....

    yes, your right, genetics don't matter. You could compete against Coleman or Cutler. After all genetics are just an excuse. Anyone can do it, they just have to apply the great science we have learned and the right pharms and voila! Instant champion....

    Doesn't soud like you have worked with many extreme ecto's. Tell me any of these guys can be great competitors. They just need to apply the right "science" and they too can stand on the posing dias with the big-boys, because after all, genetics are just an excuse.

    Iron Addict
    LMAO!!!!

    I though you could do a bit better than that.

    I said genetics were an excuse. Where did I say that it wasn't important? Where did I say it would make them instant champions or are you trying to be sarcastic and put words in my mouth? You are going to sit there and compare Colemans gentics to Cutlers?!?! LOL.....

    Hey IA do me a favor and compare what they use now to what they used back in the golden age.

    Test, Dbol comared to Test, Tren, GH, SLin, IGF-1, to name a few that weren't even available to those back in the 70's.

    Better yet, look at the interviews today asking them about their training methods and "supplementation". The overall result was "if I had what they have today, I would have looked much better". That goes for drugs and training methods.

    Yet you want to say its genetics? Umm...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... ..

    Those that continue to bash science are the ones that don't understand it. So instead of taking the time to learn something that could help them, they come up with some theory about magic methods and magic beans that will work because it helped Joe Schmoe 30 years ago in Venice.

    So I guess I should tell my clients that aren't getting results its their genetics? (never happen!)Don't worry kid, your were just blessed with ****ty gnenetics so you will never look like that. Thank god I never beleived that because I was 6'1 140lbs, has ZERO muscle tone and fell into that category. I'm glad I listened to myself and not others.

    Genetics? Give me a break....
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    I think it's a combonation of both genetics and science. For instance as people we are getting bigger as the years go on. Look at the average height for a male now compared to say 1904. Genetics do play a role in bigger and better atheletes but at the same time so does better supplements, and training techniques, which mostly come from scientific research.
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    I don't understand much about evolution. How does a man evolve into a larger man by nature throughout say a century or so?

    Can anybody reccomend some books or something? That's one subject I know absolutley nothing about...the other being women...
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    I don't understand much about evolution. How does a man evolve into a larger man by nature throughout say a century or so?
    Well, during the last century medicine and better nutrition are two factors that have have helped man to live longer and to be stronger/larger. By the process of natural selection man will continue to evolve/improve. Women are naturally drawn to strong tall men with broad shoulders and a thin waistline vs a troll like body type. They are naturally programmed to select a mate with genetics that will produce a strong/healthy child. There are other many other genetic indicators that women look for as well such as teeth, intellect, peer status (alpha male?) etc.
    Another thing they consider is if he squats or uses the leg press j/k

    I can recommend a few books but I'm at work now ill post later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmark1972
    .
    Another thing they consider is if he squats or uses the leg press j/k
    LOL
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    Nice....post back with the books if you can...

    Thx
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    Bobo,

    Read my original post above. By genetics I mean we have a better sampling now of the genetic pool since more are involved in the game and thus we are seeing some with better genetcs than in days gone by. Do you really think Frank Zane or Padillo would have been as big as Cutler or Colemen by just adding today Pharms? REALLY??

    And you seem to have totally disregarded the fact that part of the statement I made said that the pharms were a big reason we have bigger BB's today.

    As far as not understanding science, you couldn't be further off base. Yes, I understand it. And also understand it's limitations. What is true in the lab is often not even remotely close to what occurs in "real life" in the gym. Quote the studies all day and night if it makes you feel well "studied". But if the theory doesn't apply in the gym (and a LOT of it doesn't) it's useless mental masturbation.

    I never said you or myself could or would ever use the excuse of genetics for not getting results for a training client. Yes, everyone can build a great body with determination and the right plan. But if you are telling everyone that they can all be great lifters, and they will all be able to compete, or get huge, you are blowing smoke up their ass. Genetic limitations is the first and last word about how far a trainee will ultimataly go. And extreme ecto's often have extreme limitations on muscle growth ability. That's just the reality of the game. Telling a young kid that is built like Woody Allen that he will one day be a great lifter is PROBABLY just building him up for the great letdown that will eventually set in.

    I too started out skinny as **** (6'1 160) and added 100 lbs total bodyweight to my frame. But....at 270 I was not contest lean and was doing TONS of gear to hold that weight. People that insinuate that since they started out small and got big that ANYONE can do the same, gear or no gear, are again blowing smoke. How you begain is not indicative of potential unless we are talking about bone structure, because bone structure is definately a determining factor.

    Iron Addict
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    Bobo,

    Read my original post above. By genetics I mean we have a better sampling now of the genetic pool since more are involved in the game and thus we are seeing some with better genetcs than in days gone by. Do you really think Frank Zane or Padillo would have been as big as Cutler or Colemen by just adding today Pharms? REALLY??

    And you seem to have totally disregarded the fact that part of the statement I made said that the pharms were a big reason we have bigger BB's today.

    As far as not understanding science, you couldn't be further off base. Yes, I understand it. And also understand it's limitations. What is true in the lab is often not even remotely close to what occurs in "real life" in the gym. Quote the studies all day and night if it makes you feel well "studied". But if the theory doesn't apply in the gym (and a LOT of it doesn't) it's useless mental masturbation.


    Iron Addict
    Big as in weight, no. Big as in muscle mass in proportion to bodyframe, yes. Thats what IGF-1, GH, Slin, and a host of others do. They break gneitic limits and add on mass that under natural law you could not. You seem to pick and choose what "science" you want to believe in. You discount studies that support or refute training styles yet say steroids play a significant role in todays freakish physiques. Well those wouldn't exist without STUDIES, in a LAB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    As far as not understanding science, you couldn't be further off base. Yes, I understand it. And also understand it's limitations. What is true in the lab is often not even remotely close to what occurs in "real life" in the gym. Quote the studies all day and night if it makes you feel well "studied". But if the theory doesn't apply in the gym (and a LOT of it doesn't) it's useless mental masturbation.


    Iron Addict
    The studies are done in a gym IA. Thats where Exercise and Strength Programs do their studies. Its not a fantasy world.

    I would believe them anyday over Joe Average who doens't even understand the mechanisms of action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    I never said you or myself could or would ever use the excuse of genetics for not getting results for a training client. Yes, everyone can build a great body with determination and the right plan. But if you are telling everyone that they can all be great lifters, and they will all be able to compete, or get huge, you are blowing smoke up their ass. Genetic limitations is the first and last word about how far a trainee will ultimataly go. And extreme ecto's often have extreme limitations on muscle growth ability. That's just the reality of the game. Telling a young kid that is built like Woody Allen that he will one day be a great lifter is PROBABLY just building him up for the great letdown that will eventually set in.

    Iron Addict
    This is common sense but I also don't use it as a crutch. If I thought this way I would never have grown because thats what people told me all my life. You will never grow, your metabilism is just too fast and you don't have the genetics to put on muscle. I tihnk I've turned out pretty well.

    I feel its used as an excuse all to often because people do not know how to train and do not know how to eat properly.

    I know plenty of small guys that are great lifters. Size has nothing to do with being a great lifter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    Bobo,


    IPeople that insinuate that since they started out small and got big that ANYONE can do the same, gear or no gear, are again blowing smoke. How you begain is not indicative of potential unless we are talking about bone structure, because bone structure is definately a determining factor.

    Iron Addict
    Its funny because I think the oppsite. I tihnk those people that tell others they can't grow because of their genetic limitations are often the ones blowing smoke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    Bobo,


    But if you are telling everyone that they can all be great lifters, and they will all be able to compete, or get huge, you are blowing smoke up their ass.
    Iron Addict
    Not everyone has to be 260 and 6% to compete. Not everyone has to win Mr. Olmypia to be considered a compeitor. I tihnk everyone has the ability to be one of those if they try hard enough. They don't have to win to be considiered great lifters or competitors in my book.

    I never promise anyone to make them a champion but I also don't deflate them and do everyone possible to help them sift through the enormous amount of myths and bull**** that is in this sport.
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    Quote bt Bobo:

    I tihnk everyone has the ability to be one of those if they try hard enough. They don't have to win to be considiered great lifters or competitors in my book.


    Are you saying here that everyone has the abilty to compete at high local or low-mid state level events??

    Iron Addict
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron addict
    Quote bt Bobo:

    I tihnk everyone has the ability to be one of those if they try hard enough. They don't have to win to be considiered great lifters or competitors in my book.


    Are you saying here that everyone has the abilty to compete at high local or low-mid state level events??

    Iron Addict
    Did I not answer that already?
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    I am not sure what you meant, please clarify.

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    Clarify what? Its pretty self explanatory. I think EVERYONE can compete at one point in their life either in a BB'ing competietion, powerliftin competition, fitness compeition, etc....I never said they had to be no. 1 or Mr. Olympia. Now what is it about that statement do you not understand?
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