Is this overtraining

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    Is this overtraining


    I've been trying to do as much research as possible on the amount of time needed for each body part to properly rest without overtraining. Currently I've been working each body part once a week, but have been told by a trainer whom I trust very much that after three days rest a muscle will have completely recovered. I know there is a lot of conflicting information out there, and recovery time also depends on things like volume and intensity but I just wanted everyone's opinion on this matter.

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    regarding the title


    regarding the title of the thread I was wondering if training each body part twice a week would cause overtraining. Will definately be lowering the volume of my workouts if I decide to train this way. My split would look something like this.

    Day one
    Chest
    Tris
    Shoulders

    Day Two
    Quads
    Hams
    Calves

    Day Three
    Back
    Bis
    Abs

    Day 4
    Off
    Repeat cycle
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    What are your stats? What does your diet look like? What kinds of problems are you having? How long have you been training? All of these questions must be answered first in order for us to further help you....

    Make sure and read up on ALL of iron addicts articles in this forum. You will learn a lot of valuable information.

    And just as a "majority ruling" yes, training same bodyparts more than once/week will lead to overtraining in MOST individuals. Especially if you're a hardgainer...And as for the trainer you speak of, he wouldn't possibly know that, everybody's different bro...
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    i gotta disagree with jergo, but i think we've been here before.

    assuming reasonable loading, any bodypart(s) can be trained multiple times (2, 3 etc.) per week w/o overtraining or overreaching.

    an added + is the significantly greater nervous system adaptation (especially useful in complex exercises like cleans) that comes from greater frequency.

    here's one simple way to look at it.

    will 9 sets of back exercises per week cause overreaching?

    if not, then doing 3 sets on 3 different days vs. 9 on one day is one example of a different way to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jergo
    What are your stats? What does your diet look like? What kinds of problems are you having? How long have you been training? All of these questions must be answered first in order for us to further help you....

    Make sure and read up on ALL of iron addicts articles in this forum. You will learn a lot of valuable information.

    And just as a "majority ruling" yes, training same bodyparts more than once/week will lead to overtraining in MOST individuals. Especially if you're a hardgainer...And as for the trainer you speak of, he wouldn't possibly know that, everybody's different bro...
    5'10'' 200. 6.5% bodyfat. Been training for about five years, hardcore the last two. My diet is very clean, eating about 3500 to 4000 calories a day. Not sure if i'm a hardgainer or just training improperly. I'm just not seeing the gains i want
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    [QUOTE=Jergo]What are your stats? What does your diet look like? What kinds of problems are you having? How long have you been training? All of these questions must be answered first in order for us to further help you....

    Make sure and read up on ALL of iron addicts articles in this forum. You will learn a lot of valuable information.

    Jergo I just read ironaddicts articles, and think that my trainer if anything would have compounded my problem. I haven't been gaining much at all in the past few months, and like most I thought I just wasn't training enough. It's really hard mentally for me to feel like i've done enough in the gym with out really going overboard. Thanks for the help
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    very few people see the gains they WANT. not if they have high standards.

    but there are a bunch of underlying misconceptions here. first of all, one doesn't want to or need to wait until a muscle is "completely recovered' before you work it again. that's suboptimal to say the least. not to mention that different adaptations to training occur over different time frames. i think a lot of this conception comes from the HIT jedis.

    there is nothing wrong with your split as written.

    fwiw, if you are truly 6.5% BF and especially if you are 6.5% and not 'pharmaceutically enhanced", you would probably be well served based on your reported lack of gains in eating more. accept that you can put on some fat with your muscle and then diet it off later.

    trying to GAIN muscle while maintaining such low bf is very difficult for most people
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    If your diet is right you can still gain if you undertrain (although not as fast as you might), overtrain and you're dead in the water. More through less, Bro!
    Last edited by azgymrat; 03-28-2004 at 01:18 AM.
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    pjflynn, I once had the same problem as you do; that is the thought that more is better. But when I first started only a couple years ago, it didn't take me long (all but a few weeks) to learn that it wasn't working the way I wanted it to. I immediately took the advice of more experienced people ie friends, board members, older guys, and cut my routine in half to say the least.

    Now sitting 90lbs. heavier (w/ some help with PH/PS's and some fat mind you) I know what works for me. And thats all that really counts. People like jjjd still bring up good points as he stated above. What I'm trying to tell you is try a lot of different techniques, methodologies, routines, etc, to find what suites you best.

    Now myself and jjjd will agree to disagree that the majority of trainees will benefit more on a low volume HIT style routine (as I do) than a higher volume, etc. And I think that overtraining is a big problem in most and he the opposite. But that is irrelevant in reality. The only way to find out is to try things for yourself anyhow, and then you'll be set to make the kind of gains that you set out to accomplish.

    So, take the advice from all people with a grain of salt. Try everything until you find what works best for yourself. IA has a lot of good articles like I said that basically outline a very easy way to test yourself in various kinds of methodology to see what works for you in a very short amount of time. Whether it be the kind of routine you posted, or a hardgainer routine like many rave about, etc.

    So, if you really want to find out if that routine will work better, the best advice I can give you is to simply try it out for yourself because thats really hte only way that you'll figure how your body responds.....

    Best of luck bro...
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    jergo and i can agree to disagree and there is much wisdom in what he says.

    it does come down to the fact that while the physiological processes involved are pretty much the same in different people, the fact is that - people are different and different people thrive on different training modalities, to an extent.
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    If your getting results stick with it if your not change it up.
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    Everyone's recovery ability is different. You could try a number of things like changing up some lifts, rep speed, ect. Also if your not going up in weight or reps each week your not making progress. Lift heavier weight and your muscle has nothing else to do but adapt. As simple as I can put it.
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    I appreciate the help bros. I guess i've been reading to much looking for the perfect workout. Instead of taking the knowledge and seeing what works for me.
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    recovery abilities do vary. it has a lot to do with how you train, and partly due to genetics, but partly due to adaptations. iow, you can train to IMPROVE recovery ability.

    if you are convinced you can't work a given muscle group more than once a week, and only train it once a week, you may be creating self-fulfilling prophecy. let's remember - adaptation is a two way street.

    for example, i know olympic style weightlifters who squat 4 days a week - 3 to 5 sets per session - 1-5 reps - and loading anywhere from 70-95% for work sets. that's in addition to all the cleans, jerks, snatches, pulls, hypers, and other stuff that they do.

    and they neither overreach nor overtrain.

    however.

    1) olympic lifters are somewhat a self-selecting group. the sport is complex enough, a niche sport, and tends to attract people who are athletic and motivated

    2) recovery ability DOES improve if you train for such (or do GPP a la Louie Simmons and the Russian School (vershoshansky etc.)).

    and in regards to #2, they do WORK UP TO this loading. it does not happen overnight.


    it basically comes down to this. unless you are interested in OPTIMAL gains (and unless you are competing, it probably is not worth it) there is a sweet spot in the curve of time/effort invested vs. gains resulting.

    there is a point at which for each additional unit of volume, the subsequent gains diminish. often stated as (in business iirc as well) you can get 80% of the results with 20% of the effort IF you workout intelligently.

    exceptional athletes want MORE than this, obviously. but the additional investment of time/effort/recovery required may not be worth it FOR YOU.

    find the sweet spot. go from there.

    and it varies - in almost everybody.
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    jjjd i really appreciate the knowledge. I played DI AA football for 2 years so i consider myself I good athlete. My problem is that i really haven't been gaining much over the past 4-5 months. I don't feel like i'm overtraining, only symptom is no real gains. I know i haven't been undertraining b/c i train with extreme intensity. but i agree with what your saying in find the sweet spot. For me i think i may just have to hit each muscle every 6-7 days. I'm really just going to have to experiment and see what works. It's just hard to keep myself out of the gym that's were i'm most comfortable, and in a perfect world i would be able to workout twice a day seven days a week.
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    also jjjd i'm most definately interested in optimal gains.
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    have you tried HST (Hypertrophy Specific Training)?

    do a google search under Haycock (the author) and Hypertrophy Specific Training.

    i know several trainees who have had a lot of success with this method.

    personally, i train more for performance THAN hypertrophy, but i might give it a try myself.

    here's how my split is currently setup.

    day
    1 push day (bench/military press/push press/jerk) - pick 2-3 off the list
    then do some triceps auxiliary work
    2 squat day (squats/front squats/jump squats/leg press) - pick 2-3 off the list
    3 off
    4 pull day (hang power clean/clean pulls/cleans/deadlifts/hammerstrength rows/bent over rows) pick 3-4 off list then biceps/grip work
    5 push day
    6 off
    then
    7 pull
    8 squat
    9 push
    10 off
    11 pull
    12 off

    note that pull day often incorporates some leg loading (deads, pulls, etc. but submaximal to say the least)
  

  
 

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