So I have been lifting steady for about 4 years now. When I originally started I was about 170 lbs, now I weigh in around 210. Just under 10% body fat. My bench is around 350. I have absolutely platuead and it is the most frustrating thing in the world. More protein doesn't help, more calories don't help. I have changed my lifting routine several times, literally have tried every supplement on the market. I am so annoyed it is unbearable. I would like to weigh in around 220 at 6-7% bodyfat. I am actually losing mass and I have no idea why. I currently eat between 3500 and 4000 calories with over 300 grams of protein. I have taken in more calories and more protein but have made no gains. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated....... and please no creatine remarks or (you should be taking in more cals) I tried going to 5000 cals for a month and made no gains and just felt bloated all the time.

No one is going to have an answer for you over the internet. The general direction you are probably going to need to go in is try something completely different training wise. I mean if you train in a bodypart split, try Westside. If you train Westside, try DC. Something that is so completely different you have to think twice about doing it because you are so out of your confort zone.

Well... if you are 100% convinced that diet and kcal intake is not the problem, that means, be default, the only other issue it could possibly be is your training (including recovery).

So without knowing how you train, and having more info than your weight, BF%, and a rough bench max, it's gonna be real tough for you to get any helpful answers.

It would also help if you told us how long you've been stuck. Also, on 5,000 kcals/day, did you at least gain weight on the scale?

We need more info here.

Also, how tall are you? If you are 6'8 and want to be ripped 220, that is different than 5'10 at 220.

I am 6' 1'', and I have done 20 sets per muscle group one day a week, 12 sets twice a week, full body workouts 3 times a week, 9 sets per muscle group once a week. High weight low reps, high reps low weight, pyramid workouts, super sets..... you name it i've done it. I gained no scale weight when upping my cal or protein intake. Also, I'm not familiar with the Westside or DC analogy

Is it possible that I have some nutrient deficiency or testosterone deficiency?

Take 2weeks off from the gym

6' 1" 210 at 9% you may very well be at your genetic limit.

Originally Posted by CROWLER

6' 1" 210 at 9% you may very well be at your genetic limit.

he just said hes not familiar with dc or westside, id say a change in his traininig is what he needs to try

Originally Posted by tshaw024

I am 6' 1'', and I have done 20 sets per muscle group one day a week, 12 sets twice a week, full body workouts 3 times a week, 9 sets per muscle group once a week. High weight low reps, high reps low weight, pyramid workouts, super sets..... you name it i've done it. I gained no scale weight when upping my cal or protein intake. Also, I'm not familiar with the Westside or DC analogy

those are easy enough to find with google
also what are your maxes in squat and deadlift

How long have you been stuck? You named a bunch of different training styles you've tried, which means you probably haven't stuck with any training system for any length of time.
Similar to what others have said you should try Westside, DC, or 5/3/1. All of these systems have a proven track record of increasing strength if done correctly. If you want to do Westside for bench, Dave Tate just did an article that can be found on elitefts or testosterone nation than even has a video part to show you correct form. You can also find the 5/3/1 e-book on elitefts. Whatever system you choose, do it correctly and stick with it for a while. You can't expect overnight gains if you've been lifting for a while.

Originally Posted by CROWLER

6' 1" 210 at 9% you may very well be at your genetic limit.

I second this. Besides not being 220, how do you look in the mirror? You have to make a choice. Do you want to stay ripped for the summer, or do you want to gain weight? There is no way you will be able to add 10 lbs muscle and drop 3% BF at the same time. Maybe you are stuck trying to do both at the same time, which never works. Unless you were still at the beginning stages. I would say you are fairly stacked if your BF is accurate right now. Especially if you have gained 40 lbs and are that lean in 4 years time. That's good stuff if you asked me. If you want to be 6% for the summer, focus on that. After then, you can take advantage of a "rebound" and start to put on some more lean mass with the new training system. I think it's going to be harder to get up to that weight lean, without having to sacrifice and add some extra BF in the process by going over to probably 230-240. Then you are going to have to maintain that for a while in order to "lock in" that much size naturally. Then you would be able to cut back down. 210 at 9% is about 191 LBM. 220 at 6% is about 206 LBM. 240 at 12% is about 211LBM. Those are some ballpark numbers so you can see how much LEAN mass you really have to add to get to your goal weight and BF. It's definitely going to take some work, but not impossible.

"take 2weeks off from the gym." End of story. No matter what else start here. Take those 2 weeks and relax, do some research on those other training methods. Don't wreck your diet, eat enough protein, just relax.

You said you tried every supplement on the market. Are you "always on" something and when was the last time you used some? And are we talking about a ton of PH's and the like? I'm asking because if you made all those gains using a ton of PH's and other stuff, and you stopped making progress when you came off, maybe your system needs a real break. I don't know, but it might help others gain a bit more insight to help you. Maybe you just need to maintain what you have for a while, like 6 months or more.

Also how old are you? It might help others as well.

I don't like how I look, I don't look bad, but I feel like I don't look like someone who benches 350 lbs. I have been doing the Westside workout since this thread started, and I believe I've actually lost some size and have been weaker at the gym. I should re-title this thread (Lifter who cannot grow) lol.

Originally Posted by tshaw024

I don't like how I look, I don't look bad, but I feel like I don't look like someone who benches 350 lbs. I have been doing the Westside workout since this thread started, and I believe I've actually lost some size and have been weaker at the gym. I should re-title this thread (Lifter who cannot grow) lol.

most guys that look like they can bench 350 cant.

take 2 weeks off, regroup.........

i agree with crowler, you may be at your genetic limit.

post pics of this 210 at 9% BF.

"I would like to weigh in around 220 at 6-7% bodyfat"

btw, 6 or 7 % BF at that weight is f-ing ripped and huge, dude.

what was your age again?

Why are so many people in this thread claiming he's at a so-called genetic limit?? That term is nonsense. There is no such thing as a "genetic limit".

OP, you also said,

Originally Posted by tshaw024

I gained no scale weight when upping my cal or protein intake.

There's your problem right there. If you gained NO weight, you obviously didn't up it enough. If you are in a caloric surplus it is impossible not to gain weight. Provided you are lifting and recovering properly, and feeding the body enough of the material it needs to repair and grow (i.e. protein), then a good portion of what you gain should be LBM.

Up the kcals for a month and see where you're at then.

It could just be aging causing a hormonal loss or perhaps a rebound from a cycle or just simply overtraining?

Im 23, I'll try to post a pic today.

Put a picture on my profile, but don't know how to add one to the thread. What does everyone think about a 5000 cal, 225 protein, under 30 grams of fat and over 900 carbs? I think I should be able to add a lot of mass quickly and at the same time lose fat. Everyone will say protein is too low but I don't notice any difference between taking 200 grams or 400 grams a day. I strongly feel like these companies tell you that you need way more protein to help make their products run out quicker.

Originally Posted by tshaw024

Put a picture on my profile, but don't know how to add one to the thread. What does everyone think about a 5000 cal, 225 protein, under 30 grams of fat and over 900 carbs? I think I should be able to add a lot of mass quickly and at the same time lose fat. Everyone will say protein is too low but I don't notice any difference between taking 200 grams or 400 grams a day. I strongly feel like these companies tell you that you need way more protein to help make their products run out quicker.

Give it a shot-

See what works for you,,,,,,,,,,that many carbs and would be a balloon.

Pic looks good...... Somethings working for you, keep at it.

Ide say stick with the heaver weight training exercises for awhile. Like 6 months. Quit making things so complicated. Get some muscle bulk going. quit stressing. Eat what is recommended for your body size and tweak it up a notch sense your training for muscle bulk. Keep it simple. Dont play at the gym Focus work at the goal, you'll see some size picking up at the end of a month, could be only 2lbs or 5lbs but its going forward. multiply 2lbs buy 6 months. Give it a 150% and focus. On your rest days rest, and eat good meals.

Keep it simple,,,Focus 150%, eat good, Do the heavy lift exercises. If your worrid about keeping the abbs work them with some weights build some strong ones,.might add a lbs there too.

I'd say try DC Training, I just started and for the first time in a long time I'm scared to workout because I might not be able to walk home. That only happened once so far but the principles are very simple and they have their own forums of 100s if not 1000s of guys who swear by it and are very adamant about doing it exactly the way it is laid out.

Originally Posted by tshaw024

Put a picture on my profile, but don't know how to add one to the thread. What does everyone think about a 5000 cal, 225 protein, under 30 grams of fat and over 900 carbs? I think I should be able to add a lot of mass quickly and at the same time lose fat. Everyone will say protein is too low but I don't notice any difference between taking 200 grams or 400 grams a day. I strongly feel like these companies tell you that you need way more protein to help make their products run out quicker.

Quite frankly, at first blush, this is a very bad idea. Unless you are one of those people that tolerates carbs very well (and I mean VERY well if you plan on eating 900 g of them a day), you will most likely add more fat than is necessary on a bulking diet. (Although I will be the first to admit I am the poster child for adding more fat than necessary. Food. Yum.)

Also, I am with you on the protein thought. I even got into it with some guy on another thread a while back. Too many people assume eating tons of protein (1.5-2.0x BW) is vital to grow, but when you're eating a surplus, as long as you take in enough to sustain repair and growth, you will be fine. That said, 225 may be just a tad low. I would go for somewhere in the neigborhood of 260 - 310 g (1.25 - 1.5x BW, roughly). HOWEVER, you are saying you've run into a unique problem, in that no matter what you do, you can't grow. To fix this, upping calories should work, IMO, and if that's true, we have to, almost by default, up protein as well. So let's shoot for 1.75x BW - 368 g/day.

Now for the 3rd macro... 5000 kcals/day and less than 270 of them from fat? I will make a prediction that you will have some trouble getting in that many cals with such an extreme low-fat diet. Furthermore, why such an aversion to dietray fat? Contrary to the idiotic US government food pyramid, fat is NOT the enemy. Carbs - more precisely, refined and processed carbs - are. So a diet featuring huge carb intake, extreme low-fat intake, and moderate (for a BB) protein intake is not really a good idea IMO.

I don't know what expereince you have with low(er) carb diets, so rather than assume we'll keep it along the lines of a "normal" 40-30-30. I suggest 5000 kcals to be split like this: start with protein, where we are assuming 368 g/day (per above). That's 1,472 kcals. It appears you like your carbs, nothing wrong with that, but anything more than 400-500 carbs is likely unecessary. Let's take 500 and say that's 2,000 kcals there. Now you're up to 3,472. The remaining 1528 need to come from fat, so that's 170 g/day. The whole diet is roughly 40% carbs, 30% protein, 30% fat.

This post is getting really long, so real briefly: protein sources should be self-explanatory, carbs should be tons of fruit and veggies, oats, whole-grains, etc and try to only use sugary stuff pre and post-WO. Fats should be very high in Omega-3s (fish oil etc), no need to fear sat fat either, just don't eat high-fat and high-carb meals. IOW it's P+F, P+C, and never C+F.

Hope all this helps steer you in the right direction.

Yah that's just too many carbs, I did some tinkering today and I'm at 5000 cal, 47 grams of fat, 655 carbs, and 325 grams of protein. Carbs really do well for me, and I think with this little fat I should shred up quite easily. Im very active so I will burn a lot of the carbs.

Originally Posted by tshaw024

Yah that's just too many carbs, I did some tinkering today and I'm at 5000 cal, 47 grams of fat, 655 carbs, and 325 grams of protein. Carbs really do well for me, and I think with this little fat I should shred up quite easily. Im very active so I will burn a lot of the carbs.

Check your math. That many grams of carbs and protein = 3920 cals. 47g of fat =423 cals, so you are at 4346, not close to 5000.