Hitting shoulder twice a week?

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    Hitting shoulder twice a week?


    So I've been noticing good progress overall, however my shoulders seem to be progressing the least. I generally hit them up on Wed. along with my legs. I'm thinking of throwing them in on Sat. as well. Any negative effects on that? I usually do HIIT on Sat, with a rest Sun, but I'll move the HIIT over to Sunday.

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    When you train the chest you're automatically going to recruit muscles from the shoulders. So if you were to add another day of shoulder training, you're essentially going to be asking the shoulders to do more than they're capable of. You might get away with it for a week or two, but after that you'd notice that three shoulder days a week isn't the best bet.

    Your best bet would be to rethink how you're training the shoulders. Can you write out your training split? Specifically, your shoulder routine. Also, if you would, post your training goals. I wanna see why you're stacking shoulders with legs. I can't imagine not doing legs by themselves.

    I think a good way to train the shoulders is to mix it up. On any given shoulder day I might be doing reps from all the way down to 4, all the way up to 10-12, depending on the exercise. To me, good shoulders mean strong shoulders, but also, defined shoulders. But we can talk more about the actual training once you list your regimen.
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    Alright, he's my routine:

    Monday:
    Tris/Chest

    Smith Bench 3-4x6-10
    Skull Cruser(flat one week, incline one week, decline one week) 3x8-10
    Incline DB bench - 3-4x8-10
    DB Pull-Over(or BB) 3x8-10
    Flys 3x8-10
    Overhead Extentions 3x8-10


    Wednesday:
    Shoulders/Legs
    *legs vary too much so I'm not going to be posting them
    Smith machine press 3-4x6-10
    Seated or Standing Military Press 3-4x8-10
    Arnold Press 3x8-10
    Single arm lateral raise w/ sinlge arm front raise 3x7

    Friday:
    Bis/Back

    Pull-ups whatver I can do
    BB curl 3x8-10
    Pulldowns 3x10
    Preacher Curls(DB) 3x8-10
    Bent-over rows 3x8-10
    EZ-Bar burls(close grip) 3x8-10



    At one point it was bis/shoulder and legs/back, but a switched it around for no apparent reason. My goals are basiclly size.
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    I train shoulders alone on wednesday and sundays and have seen tremendous improvement since I started doing this about 7-8 months ago.

    My suggestion is to alter what you do dependant upon the day. For example, I work predominantly bb exercises on Sunday and db exercises on Wednesday. Also, dont forget to hit rear delts as well. Just keep things varying as often as possible.
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    First of all, I would just train your shoulders with your chest, and maybe keep the specific triceps training to one exercise. Trust me, if you're doing heavy presses, you will get feedback from your triceps. Adding in just a little bit of isolation won't hurt anything, but too much can cause overtraining. It's easy to overtrain the triceps when you're pounding the presses, so sometimes less and more.

    Legs are roughly half your physique and they demand more than other muscle groups. These muscles are capable of the most strength and most endurance. They need their own day. I do think it's okay to throw in something like abs or forearms with legs.

    As far as your actual shoulder training, give this a try:
    Standing Shoulder Press 3-4 x 8-10 (After warmups)
    ** Towards the end I sometimes I do push presses. Using just enough momentum from my legs to press the weight. This "cheating" allows you to keep working the shoulders past their normal point of fatigue.
    a.) Dumbbell Presses 3 x 8-10
    b.) Seated or Standing Side DB Raises 3 x 8-10 (strict)
    ** This is done as a superset.
    Upright Rows 3 x 8, 6, 4

    Also, mix it up as far as rep ranges. Some days you should have an exercise where you go really heavy and use maximum power. For most exercises it's best to keep reps under 10. Figure out which rep ranges work best for certain exercises. Be strict with your movements, warm up properly, stretch a LOT after your workout.

    I think if you want big and quality, you have to work heavy, but you also have to give the muscles quality, full range of motion, isolation work (straight arm raises).

    This is my opinion anyway. Good luck
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    If you're gonna try it I'd keep the second workout light and at least 2-3 days after you trained shoulders heavy.

    Personally I lean towards josh's ideas. I prefer training shoulders w/ chest and triceps. When I've trained them w/ other body parts in the past or by themselves I never made the same progression.
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    once a week max. don't over-train.
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    Shoulders are "fickle" muscles for lack of a better term.DON'T over do it.You get a shoulder injury,an you can forget training for a WHILE!
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    I wouldn't directly hit shoulders 2x per week while still benching. That's a lot of shoulder work. IMO increase your volume on your shoulder day. Also I think the smith robs you of shoulder strength... just my opinion.
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    Here is how i do my shoulders, and this was mainly for strength but it seems to be making them bigger.

    Monday after i bench i do 2 rear delt exercises for a total of 6 sets. Free weights only.

    Friday i do either standing strict presses or seated behind the neck for a few sets followed by 2x20 side raises.

    The rear delts allow me to hammer them, and the other stuff is low volume but enough work. This works for me, may not for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I train shoulders alone on wednesday and sundays and have seen tremendous improvement since I started doing this about 7-8 months ago.
    .
    Me too
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    Check your technique on over head presses. Do them standing, and finish by driving through with the elbows behind the ears vs. in front. Learn to activate and strengthen your serratus anterior and lower traps so you can achieve a full ROM. Ditch the smith machine..forget that piece of equipment exists, you cannot get a full, natural ROM on it. You need A LOT more read delt work.

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
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    Can I ask how you are measuring progression on them, to say the other lifts?
    I mean is it by adding/not adding weight/reps?
    I am going to guess, it is most likely because you are focusing on them the most and they are farther out in front of the rest of your exercises ie: legs, hips and back and the muscles of the shoulders are smaller groups than those big ones also, so you have much more room to progress on the big groups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Ditch the smith machine..forget that piece of equipment exists....???????...????

    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    Hey Jason what you think bout this on my smith

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    Drop the smith machine. It doesn't allow for natural path of motion; consider a 6 foot guy and a 5 foot 9 guy using the same smith machine, or guys with varying postures, these guys all have varying paths of motion when doing things like a squat/ military press yet the smith machine restricts them to the same path forcing a usually non-natural path for the bar.

    Secondly, training twice per week is fine. I use 5/3/1 + the bbb template and on the days that a movement is being trained (i.e. the shoulder press), thats my sole workout for the movement for the day and the rest of my workout will be chest hypertrophy or whatever. Then on my chest 5/3/1 + bbb day I do a shoulder hypertrophy based workout.

    Thirdly, do compound/ multi joint exercises first. Uou have Bi's listed before Back and Tri's listed before Chest; swap that around. You smash your bi's and tris before and you hinder your progress and form on other exercises.
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    Remove shoulders from Wednesday. Do them Saturday instead, along with tricep accessories. See how that goes.
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    Once a week is plenty for me. I've tried twice before in the past and it just hurt, bad hurt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich Schmidt View Post
    once a week max. don't over-train.
    guys i train with that put up 300lbs overheads work them 2 times a week.you have to figure in intensity and volume to the frequency before you can say whether something is bad or not.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    I'm in the same boat and overcame lagging shoulder hypertrophy by increasing frequency, which led to re-vamping my whole approach to focus on frequency.

    I hit my big lifts but also include isolation work, especially for shoulders. Consider a day with heavy pressing and then a day with lighter isolation work like lateral and front raises, face pulls, upright rows if they don't bother you et cetera.

    The bench press only crowd is really missing out where hypertrophy is concerned, imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm in the same boat and overcame lagging shoulder hypertrophy by increasing frequency, which led to re-vamping my whole approach to focus on frequency.

    I hit my big lifts but also include isolation work, especially for shoulders. Consider a day with heavy pressing and then a day with lighter isolation work like lateral and front raises, face pulls, upright rows if they don't bother you et cetera.

    The bench press only crowd is really missing out where hypertrophy is concerned, imo.
    This is my approach and it has worked wonders for my shoulder development; i personally train for strength on one day (OHP dominant) then do hypertrophy specific movements a few days later. Heavy pressing day and hypertrophy work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm in the same boat and overcame lagging shoulder hypertrophy by increasing frequency, which led to re-vamping my whole approach to focus on frequency.

    I hit my big lifts but also include isolation work, especially for shoulders. Consider a day with heavy pressing and then a day with lighter isolation work like lateral and front raises, face pulls, upright rows if they don't bother you et cetera.

    The bench press only crowd is really missing out where hypertrophy is concerned, imo.
    ^^^This

    Shoulders definitely need some iso work, imo. Especially the middle and posterior. I personally don't do any extra anterior work because I feel like I hit them enough on OHP, bench, and incline presses. Improper shoulder development can ruin posture, which gets in the way of everything else in the gym.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDog479 View Post
    ^^^This

    Shoulders definitely need some iso work, imo. Especially the middle and posterior. I personally don't do any extra anterior work because I feel like I hit them enough on OHP, bench, and incline presses. Improper shoulder development can ruin posture, which gets in the way of everything else in the gym.
    As long as we're defining the shoulder work in detail, I agree wrt the increased frequency of shoulder accessory work as long as it's not anterior delt work. They truly do get a lot of work as is from benching, and for some people from their tricep work, so I'd be wary of doing too much more.
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    if your gonna do shoulders twice a week maybe do them on chest day after chest then on your other day. i think j86 said thats as well. but dont over train. everyone different. listen to your body. good luck
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    If you want to train shoulders once more during the week I'd say just focus on the rear delt. Do some snatch grip deads, some heavy partial swings, some facepulls and then maybe some smaller isolation movements like reverse flies or cable stuff to finish.

    When it comes to shoulder aesthetics, the rear delts play a huge role. They contribute a great deal to getting that "round" look to the shoulder, not to mention that keeping them strong will prevent a lot of injury and trouble down the road. Looking at the routine you posted above, it looks like you definitely need to ad in some external rotator and upper back work.

    It's anecdotal, but for me my shoulders love volume. I'd definitely ad in at least a set or two of something in the higher rep range (12-20).

    Also, for a great pump at the end I do this: Use the same pair of dbs for all the exercises and don't rest between movements, just after you've finished all four.

    Lateral Raises: 12
    Rear Delt Flies: 12
    Front Raises: 12
    Press: 12

    Rest 30 after each round and try and do it 3-4 times. If you like getting a pump that keeps your from touching your head and makes your delts look like little cannonballs, give that a go. I love it as a finisher.
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    I usually hit shoulders once a week. Shoulders are used in bench press (as already pointed out) as well as back workouts to a smaller degree. If you are having problems, mix your routine up. Every once in a while I will go ultra high reps like 50 for failure for several sets. Wonderful burn and will shake it up some.
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    I train shoulders twice a week. Once with chest and once by themselves.

    Day one is chest, which gives my front delts a lot of work anyway. I only do 5-6 sets on overhead press after bench press and incline press. I then concerntrate on side delts and rear delts.

    Shoulder day two is rear delt and side delt only- s these are the parts on that are lacking for me. I do 12-16 sets on both rear and side delts (32 total).
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    From my observations, I think people who have difficulty developing their delts are not performing (or cannot physically perform) a proper over head press. They do not use full ROM, they either cannot bring the weight low enough or cannot lock it out overhead correctly, or have incorrect limb positioning. I think the prior issues are a result of poor scapula control and rotation due to weak serratus and lower traps. Correct your scapula fixators, learn to press correctly, and watch your deltoids increase in size.
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    Can we stop saying "don't over train". That's such an antiquated warning with little to no consideration for the million things that would come into play. it's not as simple as, "don't train shoulders 3x a week, you'll overtrain". In fact, with most people, you're far more likely to end up with some kind of overuse injury before you reach a state of overreaching or overtraining
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdb2 View Post
    Can we stop saying "don't over train". That's such an antiquated warning with little to no consideration for the million things that would come into play. it's not as simple as, "don't train shoulders 3x a week, you'll overtrain". In fact, with most people, you're far more likely to end up with some kind of overuse injury before you reach a state of overreaching or overtraining
    What you say makes sense. In past I have had some shoulder problem, and physical therapy I had twice a week for 1 month. Plus cortisone shot which helped that I could tell not at all. Now for shoulders I do train them twice a week. It is very specialized this shoulder training I do and have had gains better for my shoulders than ever in the past. imo shoulder training is fine tuned in such a way where for me following a routine set up by another may have caused the first injury, each person may need to find what is working.
  

  
 

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