any ideas for upper pecs?

[Sinon]

I've heard inclines, but I've tried that. Different inclines, bb and db. Nothings working, that is the only part im lacking. Seems like nothing is there but bone but the rest of my pecs have muscle. Anything I should try?

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[suncloud]

low pulley cable crossovers.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh_5eDyaVIU"]YouTube - aleksfowler.co.uk cable crossover low pulley[/ame]


if incline barbell and dumbells aren't working though, you may want to pre fatigue your front delts before starting the movement, since your delts are overpowering your chest.

[Sinon]

I think that's true. My front delts are pretty big compared to even my arms. I thought that they were just responding well, now im thinking im using them too much on the bench. Hmm

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[buuzer0]

Not sure if it's going to work, but a buddy in the gym recently told me I should start doing vertical lifts (the incline bench sitting straight up) with the assisted/controlled barbell lift machine (the one most people use for squats).

I'm going to try the low pulley cable crossovers though!

[nemo]

Sinon, I'm not being a ****,.. are you doing inclines correctly? Using a barbell, bring the bar to the top of your chest, feel the stretch of your pecs, then explode that weight up, bring down under control till the bar touches your chest, high, just below your neck. Has worked wonders for me!!!

[russy_russ]

You want to know why? It's because it's impossible to target primarily the 'upper' region of the pectoralis major. This is because the muscle fibers which are innervated by a single motor neuron (together a motor unit) are not clustered together--yet randomly spread throughout the entire muscle group (where genetics comes into play). And, once that motor neuron sends an action potential to contract the skeletal muscle fibers which are innervated by that single neuron all of the muscle fibers contract, not just ones in a specific region.

[TheLastRonin]

I will tell you a favorite exercise of mine for upper pecs. Set your bench to a 45 degree angle. Grasp 2 heavy dumbbells in a hammer grip and press in a triangle movment. Try this sitting with one hand on your pec. You will feel ALMOST every fiber of you pec bieng utilized. I go heavy as hell on these and know that it has contributed greatly to my overall strength and size in my upper(not to mention the rest of it either) pec region. I rotate these with heavy incline bench press.
Try it out and when you feel like your melon is going to explode push 2 more reps.

[russy_russ]

I will tell you a favorite exercise of mine for upper pecs. Set your bench to a 45 degree angle. Grasp 2 heavy dumbbells in a hammer grip and press in a triangle movment. Try this sitting with one hand on your pec. You will feel every fiber of you pec bieng utilized. I go heavy as hell on these and know that it has contributed greatly to my overall strength and size in my upper(not to mention the rest of it either) pec region. I rotate these with heavy incline bench press.
Try it out and when you feel like your melon is going to explode push 2 more reps.

Not trying to be a d*ck, but no one will ever recruit all of their motor units in any muscle group.

[TheLastRonin]

Not trying to be a d*ck, but no one will ever recruit all of their motor units in any muscle group.

No **** Sherlock, it was more of a generalization. As in feel the difference with your hand between regular dumbbell presses and these. Do the exercise and SEE the difference. I will edit it to say "Almost", like say 80%+ in a trained individual. Happy you precise bastard lol?

[russy_russ]

No **** Sherlock, it was more of a generalization. As in feel the difference with your hand between regular dumbbell presses and these. Do the exercise and SEE the difference. I will edit it to say "Almost", like say 80%+ in a trained individual. Happy you precise bastard lol?

I can be a complete **** if you want to play it like that. And, you're still incorrect. You have to take into consideration on how much actin and myosin are composed within the individual's muscle fibers. Also, the load vs force generation with respect to angular velocity, as well as neural adaptation to specific training methods. Typically, the only individual's that come close to that number are power lifters.

Why would I do incline presses? That movement is not specific to any sport or lifting style I participate in. And, I know that it is impossible to target that region for bodybuilding purposes.

[Joshua86]

Shoot for gaining overall mass in your pectorals. The best way to do this is to shoot for gaining overall size. You're only going to develop those muscles so far before you have to gain more overall mass.

[TheLastRonin]

I can be a complete **** if you want to play it like that. And, you're still incorrect. You have to take into consideration on how much actin and myosin are composed within the individual's muscle fibers. Also, the load vs muscular strength with respect to angular velocity, as well as neural adaptation to specific training methods. Typically, the only people that come close to that number are power lifters.

Why would I do incline presses? That movement is not specific to any sport or lifting style I participate in. And, I know that it is impossible to target that region for bodybuilding purposes.

#1 I was being facetious in a joking way with you fuvktard.

#2 People would only need to do 1 exercise per body part to achieve the look they wanted as a bodybuilder. That just isn't so.

#3 Actually all fibers of the pectorals major have the same insertion but different origins

The Pectorals major has two heads: the one whose fibers originates from the clavicle and the one whose fibers originate from the sternum (clavicular and sternocostal, respectively).

While you can't isolate any part you can TARGET different areas because 1) a fiber doesn't flex all the same along it's whole length and 2) your fibers are arranged into nervous compartments with separate motor units and therefore different parts of the muscle can be triggered according to the needs of the movement.

#4 Obviously everyone is not created equal. That does not mean that they cannot increase the amount of muscle fiber recruitment used in an exercise by doing a specific exercise or by training themselves to do so. It depends on how you train just as much as your genetics, you do not have to be a power lifter to get maximum MFR.

#5 You also get a better ROM training with dumbbells and it helps strengthen the stabilizer muscles.

#6 The Incline press is a STAPLE movement done by Strongmen,Olympic lifters, power lifters and professional Bodybuilders. What makes you so smart and strong that you can deny that they work for building large amounts of strength and size? Do you have any pictures of yourself?Any records?What is your magic program for growth?

#7 My post was for the OP,not you if you don't like the exercise STUFU and do something else. No skin off MY nuts.

#8 Please get your information from somewhere other than FLEX magazine or your russy russ booky wook textbooks.

[Joshua86]

Research done by exercise scientist often contradicts things bodybuilders have proven in the gym. But this can go both ways. As far as I'm concerned, what matters should be the bottom line. What I'm wanting to know when I undertake something is whether or not I'm going to get results out of it, regardless of what's happening from a physiological standpoint. If it works it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

I'd go as far as to say that regardless of what experts in the field of exercise physiology say, incline presses are here to stay. There are a lot of people who swear by it. You could even say that the people who swear by incline presses could have achieved the exact same level of (upper) pectoral development without them, but regardless, no one is going to convince the masses that incline movements are useless all together.

The best way to figure out if something works for you is to try it for yourself. If you see results from including incline presses in your routine, do them. And if you think you don't need them, don't do them.

Doesn't seem too complicated to me

[russy_russ]

While you can't isolate any part you can TARGET different areas because 1) a fiber doesn't flex all the same along it's whole length and 2) your fibers are arranged into nervous compartments with separate motor units and therefore different parts of the muscle can be triggered according to the needs of the movement.


#8 Please get your information from somewhere other than FLEX magazine or your russy russ booky wook textbooks.

Actually, if you had read my original post it explains why you cannot target specific regions. And, a single muscle fiber is either contracted or it's not 'all or none principal'. While you are correct about the motor units (i mentioned the same thing) the muscle fibers that are innervated by the motor neuron are randomly spread through out the entire muscle group and NOT clustered together. Thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE to target that specific region. I do not read fitness magazines because it feeds information such as you and most other gym science people do which is more often than not incorrect. I have a B.S in Exercise Science going for a masters at the current moment.

Thanks for playing!

[TripDog]

Thats a hard area to develop imo, def a weak point for me.

[cmc]

Contrary to degrees, practical experience, and muscle mags, the fellow on the right knows how to train upper chest. Note the form and execution. Lol.

[russy_russ]

^~~~ HAHAHAH! that's awesome

[TheLastRonin]

Actually, if you had read my original post it explains why you cannot target specific regions. And, a single muscle fiber is either contracted or it's not 'all or none principal'. While you are correct about the motor units (i mentioned the same thing) the muscle fibers that are innervated by the motor neuron are randomly spread through out the entire muscle group and NOT clustered together. Thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE to target that specific region. I do not read fitness magazines because it feeds information such as you and most other gym science people do which is more often than not incorrect. I have a B.S in Exercise Science going for a masters at the current moment.

Thanks for playing!

During the incline bench press the pectoralis major (the main chest muscle) contracts entirely, but because you are on an incline the force from the weight is not distributed evenly across the chest and therefore the fibers of the upper "pec" are working hardest. Therefore, this exercise is performed in order to prioritize and build the upper portion of the chest.

The motor units that make up a muscle are not recruited in a random fashion. Motor units are recruited according to the Size Principle. Smaller motor units (fewer muscle fibers) have a small motor neuron and a low threshold for activation. These units are recruited first. As more force is demanded by an activity, progressively larger motor units are recruited.

For the muscle, intensity translates to force per contraction and contraction frequency/minute. Motor unit recruitment is regulated by required force. In the unfatigued muscle, a sufficient number of motor units will be recruited to supply the desired force. Initially desired force may be accomplished with little or no involvement of fast motor units. However, as slow units become fatigued and fail to produce force, fast units will be recruited as the brain attempts to maintain desired force production by recruiting more motor units. Consequently, the same force production in fatigued muscle will require a greater number of motor units. This additional recruitment brings in fast, fatiguable motor units. Consequently, fatigue will be accelerated toward the end of long or severe bouts due to the increased lactate produced by the late recruitment of fast units.

Specific athletic groups may differ in the control of the motor units. Top athletes in the explosive sports like Olympic weightlifting or the high jump appear to have the ability to recruit nearly all of their motor units in a simultaneous or synchronous fashion. In contrast, the firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes more asynchronous. During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. Inital gains in strength associated with a weight training program are due to improved recruitment, not muscle hypertrophy.

One thing I wonder about, is if you can answer this. If all muscle groups when worked elicit the same response regardless of the type of exercise performed, how can you attribute the results someone gets from dropping one exercise and adding another to bring up a lagging body part.When the strong part of the body part stays the same size and the weak increases? eg: Bench press for Incline Press to build up a weaker upper chest.

Question 2. What exercise regimen do you train for?

Question 3. What does your body look like?

In the real world the proof is in the pudding. People have theories for everything. Do they always pan out the way they think they will? No, they do not.
A B.S. does not an expert make. I was told by a kinesiologist I was taking a class from a long time back,that the Dead lift did not work the back muscles with the exception of the ES. I asked why is my entire back so large when that is the only back work I do? She said basically that I was a liar. This while she was a marathon runner and looked anorexic and I a 240 pound weightlifter/power lifter. (In order to keep the bar close to you during the pull, your lats are acting isometrically in humeral extension — and with a lot of weight,I later learned) I said, so much for that logic and the difference between your books and real world experience.

[russy_russ]

During the incline bench press the pectoralis major (the main chest muscle) contracts entirely, but because you are on an incline the force from the weight is not distributed evenly across the chest and therefore the fibers of the upper "pec" are working hardest. Therefore, this exercise is performed in order to prioritize and build the upper portion of the chest.

No. Have you doing indwelling and surface electrode electromyography research on pectoralis activation? I have. And, on an incline muscle activity in the pectoralis major was less than compared to a flat bench due to more recruit of motor units in anterior and medial deltoids. I'm not going to repeat myself why it is impossible to target the upper region of the pectoralis major.

The motor units that make up a muscle are not recruited in a random fashion. Motor units are recruited according to the Size Principle. Smaller motor units (fewer muscle fibers) have a small motor neuron and a low threshold for activation. These units are recruited first. As more force is demanded by an activity, progressively larger motor units are recruited.

You're correct. Motor units are recruit as needed. First are smaller (muscle fibers numbering less than 10 per motor nerve) this is for fine motor movement. The next gets larger and larger until gross motor movement is achieved. Also note that type I fibers are recruit first before type IIa fibers.

For the muscle, intensity translates to force per contraction and contraction frequency/minute. Motor unit recruitment is regulated by required force. In the unfatigued muscle, a sufficient number of motor units will be recruited to supply the desired force. Initially desired force may be accomplished with little or no involvement of fast motor units. However, as slow units become fatigued and fail to produce force, fast units will be recruited as the brain attempts to maintain desired force production by recruiting more motor units. Consequently, the same force production in fatigued muscle will require a greater number of motor units. This additional recruitment brings in fast, fatiguable motor units. Consequently, fatigue will be accelerated toward the end of long or severe bouts due to the increased lactate produced by the late recruitment of fast units.

First, force velocity needed is determined by mechanoreceptors (golgi tendon organ and muscle spindle) which send an impulse to the CNS which then translates the information and sends a signal to the PNS subdivided into the Somatic Nervous System which innervates the motor neuron and an action potential is generated. Force and velocity is the primary factor in determining whether type IIa fibers need to be recruited. Also, lactic acid is primarily formed from type II fibers due to the isozyme LDH which is located in the type II fiber which promotes conversion of pyruvic acid to lactic acid, which quickly dissociates its hydrogens forming lactate and in turn reducing blood pH which causes the 'burning' sensation commonly known with weightlifting.

Specific athletic groups may differ in the control of the motor units. Top athletes in the explosive sports like Olympic weightlifting or the high jump appear to have the ability to recruit nearly all of their motor units in a simultaneous or synchronous fashion. In contrast, the firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes more asynchronous. During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. Inital gains in strength associated with a weight training program are due to improved recruitment, not muscle hypertrophy.

I agree 100%

One thing I wonder about, is if you can answer this. If all muscle groups when worked elicit the same response regardless of the type of exercise performed, how can you attribute the results someone gets from dropping one exercise and adding another to bring up a lagging body part.When the strong part of the body part stays the same size and the weak increases? eg: Bench press for Incline Press to build up a weaker upper chest.

I'll answer this theoretically (because this is impossible, but I'm sure you can comprehend). Incline will still stimulate the pectoralis major as a whole muscle group; however, 'lower' pectoralis major only needs little stimulation to retain neural pathways and recruitment patterns, while the 'upper' chest (theoretically being more stimulated) increases in strength and/or size depending on training methods due to 'increased' stimulation and neural activation.

Question 2. What exercise regimen do you train for?

Question 3. What does your body look like?

In the real world the proof is in the pudding. People have theories for everything. Do they always pan out the way they think they will? No, they do not.
A B.S. does not an expert make. I was told by a kinesiologist I was taking a class from a long time back,that the Dead lift did not work the back muscles with the exception of the ES. I asked why is my entire back so large when that is the only back work I do? She said basically that I was a liar. This while she was a marathon runner and looked anorexic and I a 240 pound weightlifter/power lifter. (In order to keep the bar close to you during the pull, your lats are acting isometrically in humeral extension — and with a lot of weight,I later learned) I said, so much for that logic and the difference between your books and real world experience.

I train with olympic lifts such as the clean & jerk, power clean, snatch, and power snatch; and, other lifts primarily for strength.

I agree with you that science is always changing; however, the ideas I've mentioned on this thread have been researched for decades and proven with consistent results. I never claim to be an expert, but I am more experienced in the field than most of the gym rats. Dynamically speaking she is correct about the erector spinae as the only active superioposterior muscle during hip extension during the dead lift (also the rectus femoralis is inhibited, and the semi-tendinosus & semi-membranosus are activated), but statically the latisimus dorsi is also active in stabilizing the barbell (as you mentioned).

[TheLastRonin]

No. Have you doing indwelling and surface electrode electromyography research on pectoralis activation? I have. And, on an incline muscle activity in the pectoralis major was less than compared to a flat bench due to more recruit of motor units in anterior and medial deltoids. I'm not going to repeat myself why it is impossible to target the upper region of the pectoralis major.



You're correct. Motor units are recruit as needed. First are smaller (muscle fibers numbering less than 10 per motor nerve) this is for fine motor movement. The next gets larger and larger until gross motor movement is achieved. Also note that type I fibers are recruit first before type IIa fibers.




First, force velocity needed is determined by mechanoreceptors (golgi tendon organ and muscle spindle) which send an impulse to the CNS which then translates the information and sends a signal to the PNS subdivided into the Somatic Nervous System which innervates the motor neuron and an action potential is generated. Force and velocity is the primary factor in determining whether type IIa fibers need to be recruited. Also, lactic acid is primarily formed from type II fibers due to the isozyme LDH which is located in the type II fiber which promotes conversion of pyruvic acid to lactic acid, which quickly dissociates its hydrogens forming lactate and in turn reducing blood pH which causes the 'burning' sensation commonly known with weightlifting.



I agree 100%



I'll answer this theoretically (because this is impossible, but I'm sure you can comprehend). Incline will still stimulate the pectoralis major as a whole muscle group; however, 'lower' pectoralis major only needs little stimulation to retain neural pathways and recruitment patterns, while the 'upper' chest (theoretically being more stimulated) increases in strength and/or size depending on training methods due to 'increased' stimulation and neural activation.



I train with olympic lifts such as the clean & jerk, power clean, snatch, and power snatch; and, other lifts primarily for strength.

I agree with you that science is always changing; however, the ideas I've mentioned on this thread have been researched for decades and proven with consistent results. I never claim to be an expert, but I am more experienced in the field than most of the gym rats. Dynamically speaking she is correct about the erector spinae as the only active superioposterior muscle during hip extension during the dead lift (also the rectus femoralis is inhibited, and the semi-tendinosus & semi-membranosus are activated), but statically the latisimus dorsi is also active in stabilizing the barbell (as you mentioned).

http://www.miotec.com.br/pdf/ISEK2008_0242.pdf


http://www.edulife.com.br/dados%5CAr...20Peitoral.pdf


http://www.baymasters.org/MorePower!.html

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/APATX/ar...nch_Press.html

An except from an above study
"The Clavicular Head

Now we all know that the incline bench hits the upper pecs. Right? Since the upper pecs seem to help to raise the arm, this would make sense. The incline position would put the arm in more of a flexed position than either the flat or decline positions. According to EMG studies this advice seems to be pretty much true. The Barnett study tells us that the incline position produces just slightly more electrical energy in the upper pecs that either the flat or decline positions. However, the flat bench was found to be very close. While the difference between the two was considered insignificant, the slight advantage of the incline over the flat bench in upper pec activation may be just what some of us need to further develop the upper pecs."