Difference between strength and muscle?
- 01-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Difference between strength and muscle?
I've heard speculation that you can gain muscle, without gaining weight and eating over maintenance. Well, you would gain weight, but very slowly and not much at all. Is this true?
Apparently, if you eat protein 1g per lb of body weight and a normal diet, you can gain muscle. But, to gain weight/muscle/fat, you have to eat over maintenance. Eating a normal diet will take longer, but you can actually build muscle while eating a normal diet, since you are lifting weights and making your muscles stronger. I know your supposed to eat over maintenance to gain additional weight and muscle together, but if your happy with your weight and want to just gain some muscle, isn't this a logical solution, rather than getting bigger and having to cut excess body fat?
Everyone wants to get bigger..But, what about an athletic build? How do you get that toned athletic body? It can't be through diet, because they have muscle...Although, it's not body building, because they wouldn't be flexible...Their has to be some middle ground, or supplements, steroids, etc...Otherwise, it just doesn't make too much sense...
Or, do you HAVE to eat more calories do get stronger and gain muscle? Personally, i don't know if i believe this, because when i first started i weighed 143lbs and i could overhead shoulder press 30lb dumbbells. Now, i can overhead shoulder press 60lb dumbbells in each hand, but only weigh 147lbs. I don't eat over maintenance...I've also increased everything...My squat went from 85 and being sore, to 185 and not being sore...
Would this be considered newbie gains, or is it possible you can gain muscle without gaining fat slowly...Because i count calories and i am 100% positive i do not eat over maintenance and i do HIIT cardio 2x a week. If i haven't gained muscle, i've obviously gained strength...Is their a difference between strength and muscle?
- 01-11-2009, 03:44 PMBoard Sponsor
- 5'10" 215 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
I am in a hurry, and will comment more later, but eating an excess amount of protein can lead to adipose [fat gain]. Proteins are converted to glucose, with the rate dependent on the protein's specific amino-acid composition. In an average sense, about 60g out of every 100g of liver of muscle-tissue protein can be converted to glucose.
- 01-11-2009, 03:53 PM
01-11-2009, 04:05 PM
I guess i wouldn't mind adding a little weight, but i'm pretty athletic right now and don't want to lose that. Also, i just gain weight in my gut and i don't want that either. I'm trying to just eat over maintenance...
01-11-2009, 05:41 PM
01-11-2009, 08:03 PM
I think a lot of it has to do with genetics. I can gain lean muscle mass without eating calories over maintenance.
01-11-2009, 08:08 PM
Training is also going to strengthen your nervous system and create better firing patterns in your neurons which will increase your strength without a lot of muscular hypertrophy.
Muscle Pharm Rep
01-12-2009, 07:46 AM
Personaly..to gain muscle , when you first start training, gains can come easily and quickly, if you are eating enough, if your not then you wont gain, a car wont run without fuel, a baby eats food to grow, its in our nature.
To be muscular with little fat, that depends on genetics generaly, i can eat 6000 calories a day, and not gain fat, but continue to add lbm, Im a mesomorph, my metabolism is high, and im predisposed to being lean and athletic, so i have an advantage here, but to be big, im at a disadvantage, my muscles grow slower than an endomorph, they gain weight quicker but more strength and muscle size too, with less calories needed.
So its more to do with body type.
Mullet stated about becoming fat from protein, wich is very true, even though only alanine gets broken down into glucose, every gram of protein contains four calories, so if your sedentry, or not utilising your calories that you consume, then whatever you add to the protein could end up being stored as fat, either carbs or actual fat intake.
To get a balance requires learning your own body, getting your training right, and listening to your body, how it feels, etc.
Muscle fibers can become stronger through adaptation, but there is a limit to how much they can strengthen, without growing. 1lb of muscle is = to 2500 surplus calories, so once you hit a wall, or plateu with strength, then an increase in calories is vital, otherwise the muscle cannot get stronger.And it gets stronger, by increasing in size. And so the process continues.
Gause institute member
Need2slin designer.Product designer/ **** admin.
01-12-2009, 09:42 AM
This thread holds my attention! :bruce3:
01-12-2009, 12:24 PM
- 5'10" 215 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
We must also remember that the alanine-glucose pathway is extremely prevalent and pervasive. As alanine is nonessential, the body can synthesize it, and synthesize it readily through two dominant pathways: Reductive animation of pyruvate and through the aforementioned BCAAs pathway. While alanine exists as the sole amino which may be converted to glucose, the pathways through which intermediates may be converted to alanine are extensive and pervasive; this pervasiveness and the fact that meats are highly comprised of alanine leads us to our 60g of every 100g of protein having the possibility for glucose conversion.
01-12-2009, 12:30 PM
01-12-2009, 12:31 PM
from a non dietary standpoint, i would look at training as i mentioned above. if you look at some of the guys that have done the 5x5 program, they all attest to great strength gains, but very few of them have gained mass, and it's nothing to write home about.
if muscle size was an indicator of strength, then jay cutler, dennis wolf etc would all be in the olympics.
strength gains come from rep ranges 4-6, while mass is 8-12. if you look at how olympic athletes and bodybuilders train you will see this more clearly.
there's also the type of workouts being done. compound movements teach your body to work in harmony. clean and press, overhead press, squats and deadlifts show your body how to use multiple muscles to hit a desired goal. olympians and powerlifters both do this. this is one of the reasons why powerlifters are much stronger than bodybuilders (generally). bodybuilders use compound movements, and then isolation to reach their desired goals, where olympians use compounds only unless they are "weak point training".
01-12-2009, 12:46 PM
- 5'10" 215 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
01-12-2009, 12:53 PM
01-12-2009, 01:22 PM
So basically to get bigger and get bigger arms, i have to eat a lot. (over maintenance, continue lifting and put some fat on) Keeping in mind I'm an endomorph, so i will gain fat in my gut. Although, I'll continue to get stronger and build muscle. If i don't eat over maintenance, I'll continue to get stronger slowly, but my size won't really change, because I'm not supplying my body with enough nutrients. Is this right?
Lol, i do think it's funny though. (Strength and muscle) Today, i saw this pretty big muscular guy pick up 55lb dumbbells and struggle doing about 8 reps. I know he did 3 sets. It must have looked funny, because my measly 5'7 147lbs came over and did the same exercise and did 60lb dumbbells on the first set doing 12 reps. I bumped up the weight on the next two. That kind of stuff just always confuses me...
01-12-2009, 01:45 PM
01-12-2009, 03:24 PM
Strength training in general, results in an increase in cross-sectional area of all fiber types (I,IIa, IIb etc). This type of increase is called hypertrophy or the increase of muscle fiber size. While strength training increases type I muscle fibers, greater hypertrophy will occur in type II muscle fibers.
Program design is ultimately what will affect the amount of hypertrophy seen in type I and type II muscle fibers. Training for strength and power (as in powerlifting) requires maximal to near maximal contractions together with very low repetitions and full recovery between sets. This particular type of training has been shown to cause more hypertrophy in type II muscle fibers than type I muscle fibers. This is very important for strength and power athletes because type II muscle fibers have much stronger contractions than type I muscle fibers. Bodybuilders, who utilize lower intensity contractions with higher volume and shorter rest periods, do not demonstrate the selective hypertrophy of type II muscle fibers as with strength and power athletes. Instead, bodybuilders have been shown to have a greater degree of hypertrophy in type I muscle fibers.
In short, muscular size may be caused from either hypertrophy of type I or type II muscle fibers. However, strength and power gains are from the selective hypertrophy of the stronger type II muscle fibers. Training protocols that utilize heavy weight and very low reps with at least 3 minute rests between sets have been shown to increase the size of type II muscle fibers best.
Its not as easy as it seems. Yo have to find the right amount of calories to feed only the muscles. Anything else will be stores as adipose (fat). Here is what we know, it takes about 3500 calories to gain one pound, so we can assume now that we need to add at least 500 calories per day to our diet. For most of us an addition of that amount will make us grow. Protein is very important too. The exact amount for optimal muscle growth is still being debated but 1g/lb of body weight is probably a safe amount.Apparently, if you eat protein 1g per lb of body weight and a normal diet, you can gain muscle. But, to gain weight/muscle/fat, you have to eat over maintenance. Eating a normal diet will take longer, but you can actually build muscle while eating a normal diet, since you are lifting weights and making your muscles stronger. I know your supposed to eat over maintenance to gain additional weight and muscle together, but if your happy with your weight and want to just gain some muscle, isn't this a logical solution, rather than getting bigger and having to cut excess body fat?
As your body weight/muscle mas goes up so do the needs for energy in the form of calories. If you don't gradually add more calories you will be in a negative calorie balance and start to lose strength and eventually body fat and some muscle, depending on how much of a deficit you are in.Or, do you HAVE to eat more calories do get stronger and gain muscle? Personally, i don't know if i believe this, because when i first started i weighed 143lbs and i could overhead shoulder press 30lb dumbbells. Now, i can overhead shoulder press 60lb dumbbells in each hand, but only weigh 147lbs. I don't eat over maintenance...I've also increased everything...My squat went from 85 and being sore, to 185 and not being sore...
In short, NO. The slower the best but doing it natural is not going to happen. Even with anabolic steroids there will be some fat gains. That is why bodybuilders gain some weight off season and then cut the fat they stored in the process.Would this be considered newbie gains, or is it possible you can gain muscle without gaining fat slowly...
01-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Thanks for your great opinion and trying to be confrontational...
01-12-2009, 04:08 PM
I generally do 3-4 sets and rest 2-3 minutes before the next set. I do 10-8-6. If i do 4 sets, the first one is light. So, 12-10-8-6.
What kind of lifting does this seem like?
01-12-2009, 04:44 PM
01-12-2009, 06:33 PM
01-12-2009, 08:25 PM
makes perfect sense..he either doesnt eat enough to facilitate muscle growth, OR doesnt rest enough to facilitate muscle growth. Or a combo of the both. Gaining muscle is not all about what you do at the gym.
01-12-2009, 08:38 PM
Right...Well, i think i would rather be the person who is smaller lifting more weight...I mean, this makes sense, but it doesn't make sense.
If one continues to lift more weight, he is going to increase in size a little bit. For instance, if a man 145lbs is benching 200lbs, then 4 months later he is benching 245lbs, he's going to be a little bigger...(Obviously, he is doing something right for adding weight weekly)
At some point this person who doesn't eat enough, or rest enough, will come to a plateau and not make gains...
01-12-2009, 08:41 PM
You can also gain a lot of size without comparable strength gains. Research HST training.
01-12-2009, 08:44 PM
I dunno but you're resting too long imo. 30 seconds rest between sets of one excercise, 2 minutes rest between different excercises, that's my general rule. Intensity and pumps are where it's at. I don't feel like I worked hard enough if I'm not sweating all over.
What are your goals? Bigger but leaner?
I would personally look into workouts that ramp up your metabolism but also allow for max hypertrophy. HST is great for this. Fullbody workouts 3x per week. If you're feeling good, you can do fasted morning cardio on your off days. If you really want to work on a recomp effect, look into a CKD diet.
01-12-2009, 08:53 PM
01-12-2009, 09:05 PM
people lift different for different goals... for the kid that said he lifts 60lb dumbells while a much larger guy curls less.. this is because he is not training for strength he is training for muscle mass and definition... i would guess this guy was probably training with alot more mind muscle connection and recruiting all the muscle fibers possible in a lighter set to induce muscle growth.. not strenght/power which seems it would be increased by moving the most amount of weight in the shortest amount of time which is how the olympians trains vs bodybuilders...
suncloud.. many bodybuilders are some of the strongest and most athletic men in the world and im sure if they focused there efforts in a different way some of them could have been olympians.. ronnie coleman, franco columbo, etc. .. once again it comes down to genetics.. i would also be the first admit there are a fair amount of bbs that are certinally blessed with a more defined physiquie that without the AAS/peptides/hg would be no where near as strong as they are now....
someguy.. u need to decide how u want to train.. if u wanna train like a bb i will guarntee you that u need to rexamine alot of your excersise and reduce weight some to build a much stronger mind muscle connection where u focus on the pump.. and sqeezing every rep till you cant hold it any longer.. focus on the contraction ... every rep with precise form.. causing muscle fatigue and eventually muscle failure.
01-12-2009, 09:08 PM
i mean sure i could curl 75lbsx10... but instead i use 50s because i feel doing a working set of 10-12 with that can be more beneficial to me because i use stricter form and can focus on every second of every rep make sure i control every bit of that rep and the weight doesnt control me... instead of just throwing up 75s for ten
01-12-2009, 11:57 PM
I'm not really training for bodybuilder. I'm going to the navy in June, so i just wanted to get a little bigger, but stay in athletic shape, which is why i run 1.5 miles on Tuesday and Thursday. This keeps me in check to make sure I'm running fast enough.
01-13-2009, 07:58 AM
- 5'10" 215 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
01-13-2009, 05:05 PM
nooo way u were curling the 60's for twelve reps if you weigh 147 pounds.....
01-14-2009, 11:25 AM
It took me awhile but I realized you can't really compare yourself to another person without knowing the WHOLE situation.
You have no idea what that persons goals are or their physical limitations due to genetics or injuries. Most guys in my gym like doing half-squats whether they know it or not.
You also don't know how they are training or when they started their routine. Their routine may call for low intensity high reps and possibly limited rest. If this is the case then it could look like their struggling with a light weight but in fact may be working harder than you in a different way.
If my new routine calls for Front Squats and I haven't done them for awhile then the first couple of times I do them I wont even try to lift heavy because I know my CNS has to get used to the new exercise so I just rep out high and work on form and execution.
Although I see where your coming from when you compare yourself to a bigger person or other people in general but honestly the comparisons are not at all on the level unless you know a lot more detail about the person than just watching what weight he is lifting.
I'd say the biggest difference between the way 2 different people train is the amount of time between sets. I keep mine down to 30-40 seconds on everything except squats and deadlifts which are at 45-60 seconds unless back pumps require more rest. I don't work to failure on every set but believe me the overall work I do in the amount of time I do it in seems to be a lot more than most guys around me because they keep doing the same weight every week/month while I keep climbing (without significant weight gain).
01-14-2009, 06:36 PM
I think research has found that you get optimal hypertrophy from short workouts (45min), short rest periods and around 12 reps. However, I think it is best to train in all ranges. Remember Ronnie Coleman trained both powerlifting and bodybuilding.
01-14-2009, 08:37 PM
01-16-2009, 11:28 PM
01-20-2009, 12:38 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that...
I turned it into Kg to see if that made more sense to me, but it's over 27kg in each hand. I just don't believe you can rep out 12 reps of that at 147lbs. If you can then it's not that he was weak, it's that you are freakishly strong - in all my time i've never seen anyone that could do that at your weight.
Do you mean two 30lb dumbells?
01-22-2009, 06:41 PM
Just talked about something relating to this today actually. Each muscle cell is made up of three main things:
Myofibrils - These are the myosin and actin containing part of the muscle. The greater size of these leads to more sheer force generated theoretically by a contraction.
Mitochondria - Allows the muscle to oxidize fuel sources, allowing a longer time under contraction (aerobic)
Sarcoplasma - Allows the frequency of contractions to increase
Now, when a person gains strength without gaining size, its usually due to a conversion of one specialty to another. So if you started training in low volume contractions you'd start to shift toward increasing the myofibrils while decreasing the sarcoplasma and possibly the amount of mitochondria depending on other factors.
Basically the muscle can either be a jack of all trades but master of none, or excel at one thing. Of course this goes on a gradient. However, to gain mass, the size of the muscle cell has to grow. The easiest way to grow a muscle cell is to increase the sarcoplasma because it is made up of mostly water. That's what accounts for muscle being such a high percentage of water. Because the adaptation for sarcoplasma includes repeated actions, higher reps (>8) usually help with this the most.
This is a very simplistic explanation and doesn't factor in the effects hormones and nutrient timing have to do with it either.
In the end, yes it is possible to get stronger without bigger muscles but in the end, you need more sarcoplasma to transport the calcium needed for the contraction. That's why the strongest guys still have big muscles while the most muscular guys aren't the strongest.
01-24-2009, 09:43 PM
Two types of hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic (like you mentioned), and myofibrillar (addition of actin, and myosin)
01-25-2009, 04:09 AM
01-25-2009, 10:03 AM
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