This product sounds great...can't wait for another great product from Sledge.
Can you give an idea (if you know, maybe from Vida? since you haven't tested yet) how well this will compare to Proviron.
I've read some good things on there about Proviron while taking test. And am curious how this compares. This would be great if it is a fairly equal substitute to Proviron while on cycle (as far as freeing up more test).
Ill try and answer as many questions as I can:
Its not a steroid or steroid based so its really nothing like Proviron or in Vida. I do have binding values for it agaisnt SHBG and comparison numbers of MDHT, Proviron and DHT and its better then all 3.
SHBG binds up roughly 38-40% of T, albumin binds all of the rest but 1-2% which is left as active free T. I havent found any info on having SHBG bind to a receptor and then have the androgen activated from there. I have over a dozen studies all saying the same thing, the only biologicaly active testosterone is Free T. That is what we want to increase. Injecting Test boosts Test levels which will have a small increase in free t but it also boost SHBG, so its a double edged sword. Ersatz check out study #2,3 below. I think that will help.
I have to check my notes but i believe SHBG also helps in converting T to E2 as well as increasing prolactin, but Ill have to look it up again. If you have gyno, I would use a low dose of an anti-e while on it to be safe, until we know more about it. Most products that were suppossed to lower or bind SHBG didnt work because they got the wrong extract from the wrong part of the plant (I didnt).
How much will it increase Free T, I have no idea on exact numbers yet. The studies say its very potent, that it is dose dependant, so the more you take the more free t there is which also would normally be bad for the prostate but this compound protects the prostate as well.
I expect this to work better then proviron, because that isnt what proviron was for, it just also happened to do that. This compound is meant to bind SHBG. Here is some quick info on lowering SHBG:
In most men and women, >50% of total circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin, SHBG, and most of the rest is bound to albumin.1,2,3 SHBG-bound testosterone is not readily available for intracellular complex formation because of SHBG's high binding affinity for testosterone.2 Thus, testosterone-bound SHBG is considered to be biologically inactive. Albumin has a much lower binding affinity for testosterone but binds a significant portion of the total testosterone because albumin is present at much higher plasma concentrations than SHBG.2,4 The rapid dissociation of "weakly bound" testosterone from albumin, together with a relatively long transit time of albumin through target tissue capillary beds, result in the availability of essentially all albumin-bound testosterone for steroid-receptor interaction.4 The sum of the free- and albumin-bound testosterone is often referred to as bioavailable testosterone. The concentration of testosterone in the various free and bound forms is essentially a function of total testosterone concentration and the relative concentrations of SHBG and albumin. It can be predicted that increased SHBG will decrease the concentration of both free and bioavailable testosterone for a given total testosterone concentration. The free androgen index can be used to estimate physiologically active testosterone.2,3 This index is calculated as the ratio of total testosterone divided by SHBG (both expressed in the same units) and multiplied by 100 to yield numerical results comparable in free testosterone concentration.2,5,6,7
1. Klee GG and Heser DW, "Techniques to Measure Testosterone in the Elderly," Mayo Clin Proc, 2000, 75(Suppl):S19-S25.
2. Wheeler MJ, "The Determination of Bioavailable Testosterone," Ann Clin Biochem, 1995, 32(Pt 4):345-57 (review)
3. Gronowski AM and Landau-Levine M, "Reproductive Endocrine Function," Tietz Textbook of Clinical Chemistry, 3rd ed, Burtis CA and Ashwood ER, eds, Philadelphia, PA: WB Saunders Co, 1999, 1601-41.
4. Manni A, Pardridge WM, Cefalu W, et al, "Bioavailability of Albumin-Bound Testosterone," J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 1985, 61(4):705-10.
5. Vermeulen A, Verdonck L, and Kaufman JM, "A Critical Evaluation of Simple Methods for the Estimation of Free Testosterone in Serum," J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 1999, 84(10):3666-72.
6. Blight LF, Judd SJ, and White GH, "Relative Diagnostic Value of Serum Non-SHBG-Bound Testosterone, Free Androgen Index and Free Testosterone in the Assessment of Mild to Moderate Hirsutism," Ann Clin Biochem, 1989 (Pt 4):311-6.
7. Wilke TJ and Utley DJ, "Total Testosterone, Free-Androgen Index, Calculated Free Testosterone, and Free Testosterone by Analog RIA Compared in Hirsute Women and in Otherwise-Normal Women With Altered Binding of Sex-Hormone-Binding Globulin," Clin Chem, 1987, 33(8):1372-5.
I don't see how this could be a standalone compound. Wouldn't you need to take something to stop aromatization? But AI's lower SHBG anyway, so what's the point?
Also, calling something that directly affects hormones "non-hormonal" is rather misleading. The compound itself is not directly anabolic, so calling it a non-hormonal anabolic is kind of shady if you ask me.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this.
Anabolic = growth causing compound.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anabolicadj 1: of or related to the synthetic phase of metabolism 2: characterized by or promoting constructive metabolism; "some athletes take anabolic steroids to increase muscle size temporarily"
Hormone -- a substance producted a tissue or gland.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hormonalA substance, usually a peptide or steroid, produced by one tissue and conveyed by the bloodstream to another to effect physiological activity, such as growth or metabolism.
A synthetic compound that acts like a hormone in the body.
Any of various similar substances found in plants and insects that regulate development.
Consequently, and anti-e or AI or not a hormone, though it affects hormones. Same here (allegedly). There is a vast different between taking an exogenous hormone and taking something that enhances hormonal fuction. Thus, taking cytomel is taking an exogenous hormone. Taking 7-oxo or 7-OH, is not.
I think you may be giving out too much information, Sledge, but I hope not.
Sledge, you have a PM at Avant Labs.
It should be ok this time, Ill have it ready soon...Ill check it now.
Glad to hear it Sledge. The ingredient looks fantastic, and very safe...
sounds like a good stacking option for the rebound stuff, yes?
Originally Posted by Twin Peak
I didn't say it was a hormone. But, I can play that game too, I noticed how you didn't post the definition of hormonal further down on that page:
As this product is "related to" "hormonal changes" it is not "non-hormonal".Code:hormonal adj : of or relating to or caused by hormones; "hormonal changes"
Sorry, that doesn't fit. From what I can tell, this product is not "of or relating to or caused by hormones".
This sounds like it doesn't change hormones; it effects a protein complex (SHBG). This protein complex is not a hormone; therefore, directly, this is non-hormonalOriginally Posted by Onslaught
Analagy: You buy eggs at the store, they are not labeled as hormonal because they dont directly act on your hormone levels. But, if you wish to follow it through, they act on your lipid profile with their cholesterol content and then this effects you hormonal levels. Basically everything in some way or another is hormonal if you trace the cord back far enough to the wall.
Originally Posted by Onslaught
It is non-hormonal. The compound does not effect testosterone or estrogen production. It does not increase production of any sex hormone. It has no anabolic or androgenic activity. Its not a steroid or based off a steroid ring structure. By your reasoning Zinc and Chrysin are both hormonal as well?
The possiblity of an increase in estrogen (E2) would be small (Im looking into getting exact numbers), the chemical, Hydrofuran(tm) binds up SHBG, which in turn allows more biologically active free t to bind to the androgen receptors (AR) in tissue (except DHT which is blocked in the prostate).
What would need to happen is, the increase in Free T, would have to cause an increase in the aromatase enzyme, which would then convert Free T to Bound-E2, the small % left over is Free E2. The amount of Free E2 left unbound above the amount we normally have to have, would then act on the AR or ER.
Even in women (who have higher levels of E to begin with) with breast cancer, lowering of SHBG did not cause a statiscally significant rise in E2 (p = 0.083).
No one ever said you had to run this product alone and if you have gyno or are sensitive to E2 related side effects then of course you would want to use/have on hand an AI with ANY product that boosts T as a precaution.
Its crazy to think that you wouldnt want to use a product that could boost Free T, because it might through 3 steps raise free E. People take shots of Test, use phs, tribulus, AIs, pyhtoestrogens, zinc etc in the hope of increasing free T even in the slightest.
1: Eur J Cancer Prev. 1992 Apr;1(3):225-30. Related Articles, Links
However, only E2 levels (crude or adjusted for body build) were significantly related to risk in the two menopausal sets (p = 0.022 and p = 0.002, respectively). High percentage free E2 was associated with almost a threefold increase in the risk of breast cancer in premenopausal women; however, this increase was not statistically significant (p = 0.083).
Im sure I will use nolva or rebound I was just checking because cycling with gyno is very tricky.
I do plan on trying to run letro to starve the estrogen dependant tissue that has developed with Letro for a few months and this looks like a great add on with out cycling.
A comment like that, when all we are doing is trying to clarify for Onslaught that this compound is not, in fact, hormonal, is completely unnecessary. Debate can often be healthy in that it can extract a deeper insight into a discussed topic. I found everyone to be civil and friendly-hardly making anyone deserving of the online-stigma of being referred to as "children." If I did somehow offend, then my communication was poor, and I apologize for it; however, I don't think that this was the case.Originally Posted by Mr.50
There nothing wrong with a good debate and of course not everyone will agree with each other all the time, thats fine too.
Onslaughts original comments were valid, I just dont understand how he doesnt think it will work.
I am pretty sure I was civil; and that was despite someone calling a friend "shady." That said, I have been called worse things than a child.
Absent the shady comment, I thought Onslaught's questions were valid ones. Good thing Sledge has valid retorts.
So this is hydrofuran?
Which is tetrahydrofuran only not in ring conformation (used often as a solvent)? (A 5 membered ring w/ a oxygen - C4H8O.) Or is that just your name for this compound?
I didn't say it won't work, but I do think there will be limitations. If free T gets crazy high, or even above normal, wouldn't the body take steps to lessen T production? Maybe I don't get it, but what do women with breast cancer have anything to do with us? Of course E levels didn't change much, they're women.
Back to the original debate, if you ask me, more free T is a hormonal change, how is it not?
Disclaimer: I'm running 101degree fever, if I'm coming across as pissy it's because I feel like hell.
Hey Bryan, I have Letro on hand in case of an emergency but it looks like ReboundXT is the holy grail for PCT as Superdrol was the Holy Grail of legal androgens! If you go to the Rebound XT thread my friend has been on since Sunday night, and his gyno symptoms are looking better already (today being WED.)!Originally Posted by BryanM