Ergomax LMG ????
- 03-01-2005, 06:28 PM
- 03-01-2005, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Onslaught
Analagy: You buy eggs at the store, they are not labeled as hormonal because they dont directly act on your hormone levels. But, if you wish to follow it through, they act on your lipid profile with their cholesterol content and then this effects you hormonal levels. Basically everything in some way or another is hormonal if you trace the cord back far enough to the wall.
03-01-2005, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Onslaught
It is non-hormonal. The compound does not effect testosterone or estrogen production. It does not increase production of any sex hormone. It has no anabolic or androgenic activity. Its not a steroid or based off a steroid ring structure. By your reasoning Zinc and Chrysin are both hormonal as well?
The possiblity of an increase in estrogen (E2) would be small (Im looking into getting exact numbers), the chemical, Hydrofuran(tm) binds up SHBG, which in turn allows more biologically active free t to bind to the androgen receptors (AR) in tissue (except DHT which is blocked in the prostate).
What would need to happen is, the increase in Free T, would have to cause an increase in the aromatase enzyme, which would then convert Free T to Bound-E2, the small % left over is Free E2. The amount of Free E2 left unbound above the amount we normally have to have, would then act on the AR or ER.
Even in women (who have higher levels of E to begin with) with breast cancer, lowering of SHBG did not cause a statiscally significant rise in E2 (p = 0.083).
No one ever said you had to run this product alone and if you have gyno or are sensitive to E2 related side effects then of course you would want to use/have on hand an AI with ANY product that boosts T as a precaution.
Its crazy to think that you wouldnt want to use a product that could boost Free T, because it might through 3 steps raise free E. People take shots of Test, use phs, tribulus, AIs, pyhtoestrogens, zinc etc in the hope of increasing free T even in the slightest.
1: Eur J Cancer Prev. 1992 Apr;1(3):225-30. Related Articles, Links
However, only E2 levels (crude or adjusted for body build) were significantly related to risk in the two menopausal sets (p = 0.022 and p = 0.002, respectively). High percentage free E2 was associated with almost a threefold increase in the risk of breast cancer in premenopausal women; however, this increase was not statistically significant (p = 0.083).
03-01-2005, 07:57 PM
Im sure I will use nolva or rebound I was just checking because cycling with gyno is very tricky.
I do plan on trying to run letro to starve the estrogen dependant tissue that has developed with Letro for a few months and this looks like a great add on with out cycling.
03-01-2005, 07:59 PM
A comment like that, when all we are doing is trying to clarify for Onslaught that this compound is not, in fact, hormonal, is completely unnecessary. Debate can often be healthy in that it can extract a deeper insight into a discussed topic. I found everyone to be civil and friendly-hardly making anyone deserving of the online-stigma of being referred to as "children." If I did somehow offend, then my communication was poor, and I apologize for it; however, I don't think that this was the case.Originally Posted by Mr.50
03-01-2005, 08:32 PM
There nothing wrong with a good debate and of course not everyone will agree with each other all the time, thats fine too.
Onslaughts original comments were valid, I just dont understand how he doesnt think it will work.
03-01-2005, 11:42 PM
I am pretty sure I was civil; and that was despite someone calling a friend "shady." That said, I have been called worse things than a child.
Absent the shady comment, I thought Onslaught's questions were valid ones. Good thing Sledge has valid retorts.
03-01-2005, 11:46 PM
So this is hydrofuran?
Which is tetrahydrofuran only not in ring conformation (used often as a solvent)? (A 5 membered ring w/ a oxygen - C4H8O.) Or is that just your name for this compound?
03-02-2005, 12:43 AM
I didn't say it won't work, but I do think there will be limitations. If free T gets crazy high, or even above normal, wouldn't the body take steps to lessen T production? Maybe I don't get it, but what do women with breast cancer have anything to do with us? Of course E levels didn't change much, they're women.
Back to the original debate, if you ask me, more free T is a hormonal change, how is it not?
Disclaimer: I'm running 101degree fever, if I'm coming across as pissy it's because I feel like hell.
03-02-2005, 09:49 PM
Hey Bryan, I have Letro on hand in case of an emergency but it looks like ReboundXT is the holy grail for PCT as Superdrol was the Holy Grail of legal androgens! If you go to the Rebound XT thread my friend has been on since Sunday night, and his gyno symptoms are looking better already (today being WED.)!Originally Posted by BryanM
03-02-2005, 11:08 PM
hahaha, yeah I completely forgot it was an organic solvent, the chem name is being changed, the product name will most likely be activaTe or Free T.Originally Posted by jmh80
Onslaught, Im real tired so Ill answer your questions tomorrow, but the reason the women study is good, is that they have breast cancer and the .082 rise in free E2 had no effect.
Its a hard system to understand and I was warned that it my be difficult trying to explain how it works, but Ive got the info, I just have to lay it out there.
Just remember we arent increasing the production in any hormones, so there should be no response by the body to lower test production, this system does not effect the HPTA.
As I said before there needs to be a large increase in Free E2, that then needs to act on the receptors. Always keep in mind though that T is the stronger and perferred binding sex hormone, then DHT, then E2.
03-02-2005, 11:24 PM
So, you extract the hydrofuran from a plant? Interesting.
I'm curious as to how you kept the molecule from forming the ring conformation. Or maybe you just extract the straight chain from a mixture of isomers which includes THF?
Sorry for the probing questions, am a chem engineer (and one of the few who actually liked organic 1 and 2) just interested in the synthesis to get to your NHS. If you don't want to talk yet, it's cool.
03-02-2005, 11:33 PM
hey since i cant pm you guys. I Really would like to be a Chem major ( organic mostly). What classes are best to take 1st year in college to get a good feel for it. And what is the workload like? Sorry to hijack the thread, but i dont know any other chem. engineers and i dont wanna go to the business school i am signed up for next year. :-\. Anyways lemme know, thx guysOriginally Posted by jmh80
P.S. Sledge i signed up for the newsletter, how often is that mailed out? hehe
03-03-2005, 12:43 AM
03-03-2005, 12:44 AM
03-03-2005, 01:40 AM
03-03-2005, 01:43 AM
03-03-2005, 01:49 AM
03-03-2005, 01:54 AM
Here's my understanding of this product.
The hypothalamus receives among other things various levels of hormones, Estrogen, DHT, T. If the level of any are high then it decides that little if any hormones/androgens need to be produced. Thus high estrogen can shutdown T production. If on the other hand ALL the levels are low it sends out luteinizing hormone releasing hormone(LHRH) aka gonadotropin releasing hormone(GRH) which activates receptors on the pituitary gland. The pituitary in turn determines the amount of how much LH to produce based on levels of LHRH/GRH. The one unusual aspect of the pituitary is that the regulation of the LHRH receptors. High levels of LHRH downregulates these receptors on hte pituitary. Thus high levels of LHRH can actually lower production of T. High levels of estrogen as well as low levels will also inhibit LH production. The LH released by the pituitary then stimulates T production in the testis. The higher the LH level the more T produced. The testosterone circulates in plasma mostly bound to plasma proteins, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin at roughly 38-40% and 56-60% respectively. Therefore there is about a 2-4% of unbounded T also referred to as free T or bioavailable T. This is important because only free T can bind to the androgen receptor in cells.
Now if you have a substance with a higher affinity to SHBG or albumin this should result in an increase in free T. A poor analogy would be something that has a stronger magnetic force or pull so it attracts SHBG or albumin leaving the T free. With concerns to HPTA shutdown this won't be any issue because we are not increasing hormone levels we are just changing the amount of unbound androgens. I have seen no evidence that the hypothalmus is affected only by unbounded or bounded androgens, it is the overall level. The problem with increasing free T is that this unbounded T is more subject to aromatase enzymes thus increasing conversion of dht and estrogen. Now let's assume that we increase free T by 2% which is a 200% increase in bioavailable which should be sufficient for anabolic effects. Now assume that a whopping 50% converts to E. This would mean that overall T would decrease by 1%. If we assume that there is 1/3 the amount of E as there is T then there would be a 3% increase in E. These changes in the overall level should not affect the HPTA axis. [I don't know the ratio of E to T in the body, I'm just making up a number for illustration purposes.]
The inherent problem with this product is that it also increases the unbounded levels of DHT and E. DHT has negative effects on the prostate and hair line while E effects the prostate and can induce gyno. Fortunately this product inhibits DHT binding to the AR so prostate and hair line issues should not become a factor. It also blocks E binding to RSHBG and cAMP induction so this pathway for prostate hyperplasia is also not an issue. The downside is I have seen no evidence that it is an anti-e so gyno is a possibility especially since it increases unbound E. An AI might be a wise choice to prevent conversion from free T but this product will increase free E via the same action it does for T so I would recommend an anti-e instead.
Possible product name considerations elevaTe(somewhat misleading), acTivate, boosT, liberaTe, unbound XT, unbind XT etc. "Free T" might be a bit confusing.
03-03-2005, 09:42 PM
Free T's increase that can interact with the aromatase, is converted to bound E, then that % is free, which can then act in tissue. With free T having a higher affinity in tissue its going to use free T before free E2.
The % increase in free E will be a % of free T, it wont increase at the same rate. The biggest question is, given an increase in free E2, how much is needed for gyno to be a concern? As with everything else, its going to be different in each person. People who already have a sensitivity to gyno or E related side effects should prepare for this and use an anti-e. Those who dont, probably wont need anything. Blood work will help give us an idea of where its going, but Im still looking through studies trying to find a more definite answer. The biggest problem is there are no drugs that are SHBG binders, that also arent AIs. Anything that lowers or bonds SHBG also is an AI, so estrogen wil be low anyway.
My point with the post-menap. women with cancer is these wont dont make E at a large rate, they are also very sensitive to E2 related side effects. Although the increase in free E2 makes the risk for breast cancer higher, the statistical rise is insignificant. This is a good study to apply to BBs who are sensitive to gyno related side effects, especially gyno.
Ill be the first one testing this, I am very sensitive to gyno, so Ill be a good judge for it.
03-03-2005, 10:00 PM
Do u have an estimated date when you will be starting testing this and finished testing? Then by that we can expect a couple weeks after for the release correct?Originally Posted by Designer Supps
03-04-2005, 12:29 AM
Myo - here's my rundown of a degree in ChE. I graduated w/ a 4-0 and now work for a large petrochemical company.
If you are interested in chem/chem eng, you need to really be taking at least pre-calculus your frosh year. Ideally, calculus I, otherwise you'll be behind. You should also be taking chemistry I and II. After that, it differs if you go into chem eng or chem or biochem, etc. But, I found organic very interesting. Many people didn't do so well. It is alot of info. You do have to understand the mechanisms to suceed, you can't just memorize. I also wanted to take a junior level biochem, but the damn prof wouldn't let me in w/o these dumb biology pre-reqs (I was a senior in ChE at the time). So, plan out your course load early. If there is a technical class you find interesting, make sure you have time for pre-reqs.
So, my advice is that to really suceed you need to be an anlytical thinker, be at least somewhat good in math (chem majors aren't as good as engrs). Those are not typical of a business major. It also will require much, much more time. Science/engineering isn't a cake walk.
03-04-2005, 02:51 AM
Thx bro i really appreciate that.Originally Posted by jmh80
In HS i took Chem 1 soph year and trig/precalc senior year. Basicly i hated those classes but like what Sledge does really interests me. Unfortunealty i talked to my father who was a chemical engineer and he told me i probably wouldnt be able to handle all of the work and all of the steps to get to where i would want to be. ie... all of the math classes and other science classes that dont interest me, but are the basics. I really dont know what major i would want. What is sledge? an engineer or what. Still kinda confused
03-04-2005, 07:40 AM
03-04-2005, 07:55 AM
03-04-2005, 02:30 PM
03-04-2005, 07:58 PM
I thought I read somewhere he said he doesn't have formal education in the area (other than Vida who does). Or maybe I'm thinking of Dr. D.
03-04-2005, 08:19 PM
I believe Dr. D is a physicist (could be wrong ), but anyway back to topic, sledge for future references when the product is available and depending on testing results, would you recommened taking a AI or anti e like ersatz mentioned?
~ Nothing can kill the Grimace!!
03-05-2005, 12:30 AM
To what degree is DHT inhibited from binding? Are we talking allosteric or competitive inhibition? Raising free test would also pose a risk, in that it will also bind to the AR (though with far less affinity than was so than DHT).Originally Posted by ersatz
Finasteride would also appear to come in handy here.
03-12-2005, 12:45 AM
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