How a newbie learned to devise a cycle

[celc5]

This is what I learned over the past several months. I would like to hear opinions and/or criticism. I am also interested to see if others have similar formulas or "rules" that they follow.

ON cyle:
-Steroid/Ph
-Cycle Support

Secondary/optional:
...cissus if dry
...formestane if wet
...libido enhancer if suppressive
...energy/mental focus if lethargy

P.C.T:
-SERM
-AI
-Cort Control
-Free Test booster
-Cycle Support
-Optional to continue the above secondary

*I realize not everyone uses SERMS all the time, but this thread is NOT about that debate
*I realize not everyone uses milk thistle while ON. Again this thread is NOT about that debate either.

I'd like to see other formulas.

Edit: this is regarding oral cycles. I am not familiar with pinning as I'm sure there are different rules for those cycles.

 

[RisingAgainst]

This is what I learned over the past several months. I would like to hear opinions and/or criticism. I am also interested to see if others have similar formulas or "rules" that they follow.

ON cyle:
-Steroid/Ph
-Cycle Support

Secondary/optional:
...cissus if dry
...formestane if wet
...trib if suppressive
...energy/mental focus if lethargy

P.C.T:
-SERM
-AI
-Cort Control
-Free Test booster
-Cycle Support
-Optional to continue the above secondary

*I realize not everyone uses SERMS all the time, but this thread is NOT about that debate
*I realize not everyone uses milk thistle while ON. Again this thread is NOT about that debate either.

I'd like to see other formulas.

Doesn't look bad bro... I personally don't use milk thistle.. I use SAMe and NAC for liver health.. I like to form and mix and match all of my own supporting supps as well. I'm big on Niacin at night, policosanol, and hawthorne as well. I think you've progressed quite nicely from when we first met though, so you get a huge pat on the back for that!

 

[Rodja]

Good except for the trib part...tribulus is crap.

 

[celc5]

Good except for the trib part...tribulus is crap.

That's cool. I personally like trib, but I know a ton of people agree with you and don't get much out of it. How do you deal with libido issues if they pop up on cycle? I posted this to learn as many options as I can.

Btw, I'm not a fan of fenugreek. It only enhances libido for a day or 2 for me and then my nipples get itchy.

 

[RisingAgainst]

That's cool. I personally like trib, but I know a ton of people agree with you and don't get much out of it. How do you deal with libido issues if they pop up on cycle? I posted this to learn as many options as I can.

Btw, I'm not a fan of fenugreek. It only enhances libido for a day or 2 for me and then my nipples get itchy.

Try Eurycoma Longifolia... (long jack) cycle it 5days on, 2days off.

 

[Rodja]

That's cool. I personally like trib, but I know a ton of people agree with you and don't get much out of it. How do you deal with libido issues if they pop up on cycle? I posted this to learn as many options as I can.

Btw, I'm not a fan of fenugreek. It only enhances libido for a day or 2 for me and then my nipples get itchy.

I am a believer of building cycles around test. Test will solve any libido issues.

 

[neoborn]

Try just putting "Test Booster" instead of trib?

I like it dood we should sticky sh1t like this! Or add it to the article area. We need to have stuff in an area it's condensed thread information that is useful for newbies and others.

 

[celc5]

I am a believer of building cycles around test. Test will solve any libido issues.

agreed

Try Eurycoma Longifolia... (long jack) cycle it 5days on, 2days off.

agreed

Try just putting "Test Booster" instead of trib?

Good point. However, I personally categorize trib as a "libido enhancer" rather than a test booster.

 

[neoborn]

Good point. However, I personally categorize trib as a "libido enhancer" rather than a test booster.

Then just add both

• Libido Enhancer
• Test Booster

 

[PumpingIron]

That's pretty much the all out methodology. After a cycle or two, you will start to mess with it. I personally don't use and AI in post cycle therapy anymore. I'll use them on cycle for a wet compound, but thats about it.

I love milke thistle...good stuff. I think adding something like creatine to you PCT is a good idea to help keep strength up.

After a few bouts with Designers, here is my method...

-Cycle support half dosing 1 week prior, and my staple supps (BCAAs, Creatine)
-Cycle consisting of the Designer and a full dose of Cycle Support
-Post Cycle Therapy consisting of a SERM, an Anti-Cortisol, a Natural Test Booster, Creatine, BCAAs

 

[celc5]

I personally don't use and AI in post cycle therapy anymore. I'll use them on cycle for a wet compound, but thats about it.

Since this is a newbie thread, it would be cool if PI, RA, and others more experienced with designers would elaborate a little about what makes a compound wet vs. dry and why an AI would or would not be necessary in pct.

I think I personally get the jist of it, but you guys would most definately give a much more articulate, educated, and experienced explanation.

 

[PumpingIron]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/37790-running-serm-inverse.html?highlight=ai+inverse+serm

take a read...it's got a lot of good info.

 

[celc5]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/37790-running-serm-inverse.html?highlight=ai+inverse+serm

take a read...it's got a lot of good info.

Good link. I've read it before and was thinking it was a sticky somewhere :think:

I've also noticed that those who use the less powerful AI's such as 6brom (hyperdrol or restore) don't seem to ramp up OR taper down. I'm guessing the reasoning is that they do a better job of controlling estrogen rather than crushing it. Any thoughts on this?

 

[celc5]

In response to Neoborn and RA, I edited the initial post to include "libido enhancer" as a secondary rather than narrowing it down to just trib.

 

[RisingAgainst]

That's pretty much the all out methodology. After a cycle or two, you will start to mess with it. I personally don't use and AI in post cycle therapy anymore. I'll use them on cycle for a wet compound, but thats about it.

I agree with parts of this, but I still think a SERM standalone PCT isn't quite enough in terms of control, AT LEAST use I3C at a high dose?? IMO SERM + ATD is a good bet.

I love milke thistle...good stuff. I think adding something like creatine to you PCT is a good idea to help keep strength up.

I'm convinced SAMe is better than thistle, I run NAC with whichever one I use though.
Creatine is a great PCT option, especially a good strong one!

Since this is a newbie thread, it would be cool if PI, RA, and others more experienced with designers would elaborate a little about what makes a compound wet vs. dry and why an AI would or would not be necessary in pct.

The thing that makes a compound wet or dry is the action it performs in the body, some have a tendency to convert to estrogen which leads to 'wetter' gains and sometimes estrogen related sides. A ''drier" compound will not aromatize, and will be more solid in terms of the LBM gained. You can make wetter compounds drier with the addition of an AI or a compound like Propadrol which has an anti-e in it.

As far as strengths of AIs, I don't think that has much to do with the eradication of estrogen as a whole, it has to do with your body sensing the lack of estrogen and compensating by producing more androgens to be converted.. A more efficient way to reduce estrogen is through an ATD, reasoning is that it binds to the same receptors of aromatase enzyme and mimicks effects to an extent, although you should still taper down. A lot of people should taper that dont. FYI, SERMS do no remove or eradicate estrogen in any way, they displace it from certain receptors.. therefore INEFFICTIVE ALONE! You cannot expect a SERM to do all the work here, you should always run an ATD alongside of it to combat the estrogen thats left in the body where the SERM is inactive. The S in SERM stands for SELECTIVE, and that's key to knowing why they must be coupled with an ATD. I3C is also another option, but needs to be dosed rather high to be effective.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

In response to Neoborn and RA, I edited the initial post to include "libido enhancer" as a secondary rather than narrowing it down to just trib.

For libido ---> Paravol (thats what it was made for...post cycle sex recovery)...and then if you wanna be a pornstar during PCT try a combo of Paravol+Aspire36.:thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

I've seen I3C mentioned in posts a few times. And I don't find much when doing searches for it. What is it? I'm guessing it's the chem formula for an AI of some sort :think:

After reading the logs, it seems that ATD just kills libido in a few days. That makes me hesitant to choose it as my AI in pct.

On ramping/tapering, correct me if my thinking is wrong. You want to ramp up your AI so that it is at the recommended dosage at week 4 because the SERM is no longer blocking the estrogen receptors. Then you want to taper off of your AI to prevent a delayed estrogen rebound?

 

[RisingAgainst]

Look into AX's old PCT it's a methylated ATD and it doesn't harm libido at all.

 

[getswole]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/69809-real-deal-those.html#post880155

Take a quick read of this thread,its helpful for first cycle advise

 

[celc5]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/69809-real-deal-those.html#post880155

Take a quick read of this thread,its helpful for first cycle advise

Thanks for an awesome post! Crazy as it may seem, I had this planned already :woohoo: My new routine starts July 9 and I plan to start my cycle on July 25. I figured, what's the point of starting of a cycle to break plateau in my routine if I haven't ALREADY reached a plateau?

I'm pretty much supplement free right now except for staples and cissus but my diet has been nailed down for a good 2-3 months. I MIGHT increase calories by 200-500/day if I feel that I can still accomplish my recomp goals during the cycle but I'll play that by ear.

I'm in the area of 300p/300c/60f at 200 pounds, 16% bf. My goal is 200 pounds at 13% bf by end of pct. (+6 pounds LMB, -6 fat).

Any thoughts on this plan are greatly appreciated.

 

[getswole]

I figured, what's the point of starting of a cycle to break plateau in my routine if I haven't ALREADY reached a plateau?

That is exactly correct....

On another note...drop those over the counter orals and get you some gear....You can probably even spend less on gear than on all those prohormones/etc.....

 

[neoborn]

That is exactly correct....

On another note...drop those over the counter orals and get you some gear....You can probably even spend less on gear than on all those prohormones/etc.....

K just send me links

 

[NasD]

celc5, this is a GREAT post. I'm constantly reading the AM forums trying to extract knowledge on the right things to include in a cycle. Since gyno is a very real possibility with many orals you may want to add having letro on hand for helping reduce gyno.

 

[celc5]

celc5, this is a GREAT post. I'm constantly reading the AM forums trying to extract knowledge on the right things to include in a cycle. Since gyno is a very real possibility with many orals you may want to add having letro on hand for helping reduce gyno.

Ha, bringing this thread back from the dead... ya, an AI on cycle is a good idea for aromatizing compounds. I like formestane because it's cheap and it's a personal favorite.

If I were updating, I'd have ZMA and bulk creatine mono in my post cycle plan, in addition to all the others of course. Also, I'd have a stim on hand the first few weeks of post cycle as well :head:

 

[Xodus]

You should be careful combining Niacin and Red Yeast Rice, for example-Poseidon and Cycle Support.

High doses can cause myopathy and Rhabdomyolysis.

Milk Thistle and Niacin are a better combo for reducing cholestrol levels.

X

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I would only add that 'wet' and 'dry' compounds aren't simply inherent reaction within the body. It has much to do with diet. D-Bol, is often stated as a 'wet' oral, as it aromatizes quite easily and can lead to water/fat retention. However, it is actually more anti-catabolic than Tren, and if one has their diet tuned in to quite a good degree, in conjunction with an AI, it can be a 'dry' compound. Just something to think about.

 

[celc5]

I would only add that 'wet' and 'dry' compounds aren't simply inherent reaction within the body. It has much to do with diet. D-Bol, is often stated as a 'wet' oral, as it aromatizes quite easily and can lead to water/fat retention. However, it is actually more anti-catabolic than Tren, and if one has their diet tuned in to quite a good degree, in conjunction with an AI, it can be a 'dry' compound. Just something to think about.

I like where you're going with this. Could you elaborate on the sentence that I bolded?

Also Xodus, I do understand exactly where you're coming from. I try to come up with my own "support" plans now.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I like where you're going with this. Could you elaborate on the sentence that I bolded?

Also Xodus, I do understand exactly where you're coming from. I try to come up with my own "support" plans now.

Usually people denote a compound 'wet' or 'dry' by its level of aromatization into estrogen. I was just saying that some compounds which are thought to always produce 'wet' gains because of their high levels of aromatization, can actually be utilized, very successfully, with little water retention as long as one's diet is in utter check and an AI is used. I would be more hesitant to classify compounds as 'wet' or 'dry' than others, as there is more to consider than its aromatization. JMHO.

 

[celc5]

Good stuff bro. I agree 100%. A little discipline and planning go a long way.

On that note, I've read that estrogen "control" rather than elimination is good idea on cycle. This line of thought says that SOME water retention and SOME estrogen will help strength wise. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Well Estrogen upregulates androgen receptors themselves, as well as increasing GLUT4 activity in myocytes. Eliminating it is a bad, bad thing. Estrogen is one of the necessary factors for retaining gains in Post Cycle, one just needs to control and divert it from places one does not want. IMHO.