starting a Havoc cycle!!!

[wolfe14]

Ok so after much research and advice from you ppl on Am which i greatly appreciate, I am getting ready to start my very first PH cycle..Havoc seems best fit for me since i want minumal sides such as ACNE, gyno etc..

I would like everyone whos experienced to please feel free to bud in as I build my Cycle..

So come on guys help me build this...What ALL do I need while on this cycle and is their anything I should stack with it???

How long should i cycle and at what DOSE?

Also I REALLY need help with building the Perfect PCT!!!! This is my first cylcle so I am here to listen to all of you and learn as much as possible..I am finally at the point now where I am ready for something harder than the natty supps.

thanks in advance

 

[Royd The Noyd]

A 1st time havoc cycle is really pretty simple:

Week 1: 10mg/day
Week 2: 20mg/day
Week 3: 30mg/day
Week 4: 30 or 40 mg/day

Eat a ton, and train hard.

 

[wolfe14]

A 1st time havoc cycle is really pretty simple:

Week 1: 10mg/day
Week 2: 20mg/day
Week 3: 30mg/day
Week 4: 30 or 40 mg/day

Eat a ton, and train hard.

thanks bro..So only 4 weeks? Not 6? also should i stack other stuff with it besides the staples? And what should be my complete PCT??

 

[KgTomCat]

just run it solo, 4 weeks, eat alot of clean cals

 

[KgTomCat]

get your PCT together

 

[wolfe14]

get your PCT together

thanks...PCT is what i keep asking.. I want to have the best pct that i need for this cycle.. can someone please help me build it?? Anyone, suggestions please

 

[Orangepeel]

????????? Why is it that everyone other thread is someone that wants to use a PH/PS but isn't willing to spend even a few minutes researching HOW TO USE IT?????

Seriously, theirs probably more info on Havoc/Epi than any other single topic on this forum - how about YOU do the research on your dose/lenth/PCT/support supps and WE can comment on what YOU found?

 

[wolfe14]

Havoc is a great product Ive used it twice and did it this way:
first week 10mg
Second Week 20mg
Third Week 30mg
Fourth Week 20mg
Only 4 weeks as this is still toxic to your liver.
Use cycle support , omega 3 fish oils , creatine , glutamine , milk thistle bit exra wont hirt you.
Pct I used Muscle pharms battle fuel the first time as directed on the bottle and came back great only lost minimum weight after pct. 2nd time i used Iforce reversitol for pct as instructed on bottle but this time put on extra weight while on pct (bonus) and kept all my gains. Havoc is a great product but in week 3 My bloodpressure went a little high and this is why I went back to 20 mg. Maybe a little horthowne berry will help you out if this happens. People will tell you to use Nolvadex or clomid for PCT but I didnt and I still came back fine. My 2 cents and good luck mate.

Thanks dude, yeah Ive been thinking of getting back on a creatine.. I used gaspari size on twice before the summer but put on some bad weight too, I think maybe all the sugar thats in it made me put on fat in the midsection..What would be recommended as far as a good creatine that will NOT put on softeness?

 

[wolfe14]

????????? Why is it that everyone other thread is someone that wants to use a PH/PS but isn't willing to spend even a few minutes researching HOW TO USE IT?????

Seriously, theirs probably more info on Havoc/Epi than any other single topic on this forum - how about YOU do the research on your dose/lenth/PCT/support supps and WE can comment on what YOU found?

First off DUDE! I have done my research, and have read all the other post. But Like I said I am not new at all to lifting but am new to this site and to using any form of PH..The whole purpose of this site is to learn and be as informed as possible before I start!

"There is NO such thing as a dumb question unless you DON'T ask"

 

[KgTomCat]

I like AST's Micronized Creatine Monohydrate
http://www.discountanabolics.com/p/AS06

 

[wolfe14]

ok so i think i have my cycle figured out::

4 wks havoc @ 10/20/30/20
cycle support
fish oil
xtend 6-8 scoops day


PCT will be:
reversitol
novedex xt
pct support

plus all the usuals like protein, multi, xtend all the time, fish oil etc

let me know what you all think!!

also please tell me exactly what would be the best way to dose my PCT

thank you all

 

[KgTomCat]

i woudnt lower the 4th week, either stay at 30 or dump up to 40. PCT should be dosed as it instructs..

 

[wolfe14]

so in your opinion everything else looks fine??

 

[KgTomCat]

so in your opinion everything else looks fine??

put creatine in your PCT

and this is up to you but IMO, dont keep eating 5K cals a day in your PCT, IMO it does nothing but lead to fat gain, yes you will lose some muscle, what would you rather have? lose some muscle or gain fat??

and keep lifting HEAVY & HARD, dont be a pu$$y and lower your weights/ increase your reps. keep pounding that $hit hard

 

[wolfe14]

put creatine in your PCT

and this is up to you but IMO, dont keep eating 5K cals a day in your PCT, IMO it does nothing but lead to fat gain, yes you will lose some muscle, what would you rather have? lose some muscle or gain fat??

and keep lifting HEAVY & HARD, dont be a pu$$y and lower your weights/ increase your reps. keep pounding that $hit hard

thanks, yeah ppl keep telling me to add creatine.. but i tend to get fat and puggy in the gut on creatine.. however i do get good gains with it.. which creatine brand would you recommend that will still keep me lean and hard?? i hear alot about green mag..what do you think?

 

[wolfe14]

also is acne or gyno common with havoc?? what are some common sides that you all have experienced??

 

[2k2ser]

thanks, yeah ppl keep telling me to add creatine.. but i tend to get fat and puggy in the gut on creatine.. however i do get good gains with it.. which creatine brand would you recommend that will still keep me lean and hard?? i hear alot about green mag..what do you think?

I'm using Green Mag right now, I like it. I got a really good deal on it and decided to try it. I've not been taking it that long yet to notice dramatic results or anything.

 

[06banshee]

im on my first havoc cycle...im doing 20/30/30/30 or 40 in the last week depends on my BP...Make sure to take your fish oils and check your blood pressure thats how im monitoring if i should go up to 40 right now mt BP is normal and ive even been drinking superpump which is NOT RECOMENDED AND IM NOT TELLING YOU TO DRINK i drink it tho because sometimes i feel way to tired to work out...

 

[06banshee]

also i have broken out since i started using having in my face

 

[KgTomCat]

as for sides, everyone is different. It prob will not cause gyno, but rather help get rid of it. Take Hawthorne Berry if our worried about BP while on cycle, try to stay away from NOS or any caffeine products.
For creatine...if you bloat, may want to try creatine ethyl ester (CEE). I use AST Micronized Creatine Mono

 

[KgTomCat]

I think major brands of creatine (Green Mag, Cell Tech, Size On) are junk, there nothing but sugar

 

[wolfe14]

THANKS ALOT EVERYONE AND FEEL FREE TO KEEP DROPING ADVICE!!!

IM A SPONGE

 

[Orangepeel]

First off DUDE! I have done my research, and have read all the other post. But Like I said I am not new at all to lifting but am new to this site and to using any form of PH..The whole purpose of this site is to learn and be as informed as possible before I start!

"There is NO such thing as a dumb question unless you DON'T ask"

I agree; but there's more info on Havoc/Epi than any other single topic on AM; and in less than a minute by use of the search function I found a single thread that can answer ALL of your questions plus some, only thing is; you might have to read for a few minutes and sift through to the info your looking for:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/recomp-performance-nutrition/82835-havoc-write-up.html

I agree the whole purpose is to learn, but it's tough for some people to learn when every thread is "How do I use Havoc" or "I'm stacking Havoc, H-drol, Superdrol, and X-Tren, Do I need a PCT?"

-----

Also be careful who you listen to/beleive; I'll bold a few things you may want to look into before trusting:

No chance of gyno with this product, If you have done a aas and developed gyno Havoc is a good product to help reduce gyno. Also I like your cycle you have put together but just listen to your body in week 3 if to raise an extra 10 or 20mg ( bp etc ) The idea of tapering back in 4 week is to prepare your body for pct. With pct I dont think nolvedex is required but of course use it if you want. You will most probably put on 6 to 8 pound in this four week cycle all the advice I can give you is eat eat eat and lift lift lift.:afro:

And if you do some searching on things you should/shouldn't do, how to eat, how to lift, what supports to take and when, get enough rest...basically do this cycle RIGHT you should have no problem putting on 15LB's; my first run of Havoc I gained 20LB's.

It's up to you...but the more time you spend researching on your own, I can promise you it will make your cycle/PCT just that much better.

 

[aegol]

Wolfe...Don't use novedex xt as your PCT when you can get a real SERM like Nolvadex. You don't want to screw around with this. Get Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) or don't do it! Havoc is an AI itself but after the cycle you may have rebound estrogen and it can cause gyno if you don't take a SERM. Search for "research chemicals nolvadex" on google to find a place to buy it legally.

Here is what I'd recommend
Havoc/Epi
Wk 1 - 10 10 20 20 30 30 30
Wk 2 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 3 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 4 - 40 40 40 40 40 40 40

Then PCT 40/40/20 of Tamoxifen Citrate/Nolva
plus some kind of liver support the whole time like Liv 52

 

[jumpcannon]

i cant stand some of the people on here that are like "do your own research man! its out there!" well asking questions is research and also entertainment. keep asking away dude!

 

[wolfe14]

Wolfe...Don't use novedex xt as your PCT when you can get a real SERM like Nolvadex. You don't want to screw around with this. Get Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) or don't do it! Havoc is an AI itself but after the cycle you may have rebound estrogen and it can cause gyno if you don't take a SERM. Search for "research chemicals nolvadex" on google to find a place to buy it legally.

Here is what I'd recommend
Havoc/Epi
Wk 1 - 10 10 20 20 30 30 30
Wk 2 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 3 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 4 - 40 40 40 40 40 40 40

Then PCT 40/40/20 of Tamoxifen Citrate/Nolva
plus some kind of liver support the whole time like Liv 52

yeah i agree using REAL products for pct is better but i get so freekin frustrated trying to find stuff online that is real nolva etcc and i dont know which website to trust...cause technically the real nolva you r suggesting is illegal right? i know you cant suggest suppliers on here and thats understandable but i wish i new which ones were legit or not..

also other than nolva what else should i stack with my pct or is that all? and you are saying 3 weeks of pct will suffice? 40/40/20 = 3 wks right?

 

[Liftingstud]

Let me make this very simple... I am tired of people saying they have done research but ask very basic questions, so today is ur lucky day here is what u do.
Havoc
10 and 20 is just wasting it.
30/30/30-40/30-40. Depends how u feel prob not need more than 30 first run.

Get cycle support. Start it a wk before the havoc and cont it through pct.

Pct
get a serm, while havoc shoulnt cause gyno it possibly can.
Tamox 40/20/20/10
your AI is started week 3 so novladex xt is cool
0/0/3/3/2/1
if u want u can add in cort control wk 3 like lean xtreme, dosed how bottle says.

It's that easy! Not rocket science. Now just lift hard and eat clean and watch yourself grow.

 

[KgTomCat]

yeah i agree using REAL products for pct is better but i get so freekin frustrated trying to find stuff online that is real nolva etcc and i dont know which website to trust...cause technically the real nolva you r suggesting is illegal right? i know you cant suggest suppliers on here and thats understandable but i wish i new which ones were legit or not..

also other than nolva what else should i stack with my pct or is that all? and you are saying 3 weeks of pct will suffice? 40/40/20 = 3 wks right?

correct on the 3 weeks/dosing, but Id throw in a test booster. IDK about Havoc that much, but I suppose you could do something like Nolva/Test Diesel/6OXO
but there's alot of combination you could do, just make sure you have a SERM

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/131443-havoc.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/132747-havoc-epi-estrogen.html

 

[wolfe14]

Let me make this very simple... I am tired of people saying they have done research but ask very basic questions, so today is ur lucky day here is what u do.
Havoc
10 and 20 is just wasting it.
30/30/30-40/30-40. Depends how u feel prob not need more than 30 first run.

Get cycle support. Start it a wk before the havoc and cont it through pct.

Pct
get a serm, while havoc shoulnt cause gyno it possibly can.
Tamox 40/20/20/10
your AI is started week 3 so novladex xt is cool
0/0/3/3/2/1
if u want u can add in cort control wk 3 like lean xtreme, dosed how bottle says.

It's that easy! Not rocket science. Now just lift hard and eat clean and watch yourself grow.

serm like clomid or would reversitol work? that says it has an otc SERM matrix in it??

 

[KgTomCat]

serm like clomid or would reversitol work? that says it has an otc SERM matrix in it??

reveristol isnt a SERM, Clomid, Nolva, Torem are SERM's. SERM matrix prob intends it will act like a SERM

 

[wolfe14]

reveristol isnt a SERM, Clomid, Nolva, Torem are SERM's. SERM matrix prob intends it will act like a SERM

yeah i know that but for something as mild as havoc would it suffice?

 

[KgTomCat]

yeah i know that but for something as mild as havoc would it suffice?

mild is very general term people throw around way too much...but a solo cycle, with the proper support supps, diet, rest, etc...yea, I think an OTC PCT would be fine

 

[Liftingstud]

yeah i know that but for something as mild as havoc would it suffice?

Mild?!!? Is just a label... Do it right, it's your body u only get one. Yes u could get away OTC with pct but is it worth the risk. Everytime I try OTC pct I find it harder to hold gains. I mean novla or clomid as a serm!!!

 

[Orangepeel]

i cant stand some of the people on here that are like "do your own research man! its out there!" well asking questions is research and also entertainment. keep asking away dude!

And most people on this forum cant stand lazy f*ckers like yourself who can't spend a little time researching a STERIOD on your own before you put it in your body.

 

[Orangepeel]

Seriously???

You did a great job not even looking at the Havoc write-up I posted (which was created by the people who make Havoc...but what would they know?)

yeah i know that but for something as mild as havoc would it suffice?

Some Random Havoc Q&A:

Q: Do i need to use a SERM during my Havoc PCT(Post Cylce Therapy)?

A: YES, you NEED to use a serm....... period!! There seems to be a common misconception that havoc is a "mild" compound overall in regard to HPTA shutdown. Every person and every experience WILL be different. While the side effects are often very mild in themselves, that doesn't mean that your natural endogenous test level(HPTA) isn't being shut down. Please, treat a Havoc PCT seriously and use the proper ancillary supplements to ensure maximum recovery.

 

[wolfe14]

Seriously???

You did a great job not even looking at the Havoc write-up I posted (which was created by the people who make Havoc...but what would they know?)

Damn Bro! relaxx!! I havent started any cycle yet....thats why im asking all these questions, to LEARN!! and yes i did read it...Ive been reading different post everyday for the past 2 months on here since i joined to learn as much as possible before i start anything...Im finishing my asteroid stack first so im not gonna start havoc till nov prob so i have time and I am stilll learning and collectively gathering info from evryone on here and then I'll do my own analysis based on the info i recieve...i am by no means an inexperience lifter just never dabbled into any xtreme supps before...the prob is everybody says something diff about every product so thats why i like to hear what everyone has to say then i can make an informed and intelligent decision..

 

[Liftingstud]

Xtreme supps!!! Yeahhh!!!! LOL!

 

[wolfe14]

Xtreme supps!!! Yeahhh!!!! LOL!

more xtreme than your regular natty supps..

 

[KgTomCat]

everyone had different opinions, do to diff likes/reactions/interest, its trial and error

 

[Liftingstud]

everyone had different opinions, do to diff likes/reactions/interest, its trial and error

Trial and error... Hmmm not best phrasing... Lol but get ya

 

[wolfe14]

i keep hearing of the PH ban...i wasnt palnning on starting till Nov or Dec but should i go ahead and stock up on my **** now? or will it still be around then?

 

[KgTomCat]

i keep hearing of the PH ban...i wasnt palnning on starting till Nov or Dec but should i go ahead and stock up on my **** now? or will it still be around then?

why not? prices are low

 

[wolfe14]

why not? prices are low

True!

 

[aegol]

yeah i agree using REAL products for pct is better but i get so freekin frustrated trying to find stuff online that is real nolva etcc and i dont know which website to trust...cause technically the real nolva you r suggesting is illegal right? i know you cant suggest suppliers on here and thats understandable but i wish i new which ones were legit or not..

also other than nolva what else should i stack with my pct or is that all? and you are saying 3 weeks of pct will suffice? 40/40/20 = 3 wks right?

Yes 3 weeks PCT will do it. If you really want to do another week at 20mg, knock yourself out, it won't hurt you. First week 40mg, second 40mg, third 20mg. Also there is no need to ramp down the havoc in the last week. The only reason to ramp it up in the first week is to assess your tolerance to the doses. You should 100% use a real SERM the day after the last dose of havoc and then every day for three weeks. Let me make it really simple...no SERM then no PH use. It is not worth risking gyno. I can stand some acne and low sex drive but man boobs are where I draw the line. Nolvadex is a gray area, it is a research chemical and can be purchased 100% legally for research use. What does that mean? Not for human consumption but the research chemical places make a human quality product and sell it to you. What you do with it in the privacy of your own house is not their concern. Don't try to take it on a plane or out of the country. Use common sense at all times but it is not "illegal" to own or buy it. It is sitting on my desk now for research purposes. It comes in an eye dropper bottle and the liquid is swallowed, either one ML for 20mg or 2 ML for 40mg.

I will PM you with the place I use to buy research chemicals. It is cheap, good and easy. I just tried a PM and my post count on this board is too low to send. I don't post often because I mostly lurk. I only posted because I didn't want you to make a big mistake. PM me your email address and I will be glad to tell you where to go.

Also I would make sure you are taking pretty high does of fish oil because Havoc is dry on your joints because during cycle your estrogen will be VERY low. 20g/day fish oil is a good place to start and adjust it from there. Havoc/epi is methylated and it is harsh on your liver....not like binge drinking every night for 6 months but still harsh. Some kind of cycle support stuff would be good too along with the liv 52 but it is not 100% needed. I know a lot of guys who just run havoc and nolva and nothing else. Ebay has Himalayas Liv 52, get a few bottles...that stuff is pretty cheap and usually comes from India. The liver has powerful regenerative qualities and will recover given time off. Make sure you take at least as much time off as you were on, so, Havoc 4 weeks+proper PCT 3 weeks+4 weeks off=total time --> good to go again.

 

[wolfe14]

Yes 3 weeks PCT will do it. If you really want to do another week at 20mg, knock yourself out, it won't hurt you. First week 40mg, second 40mg, third 20mg. Also there is no need to ramp down the havoc in the last week. The only reason to ramp it up in the first week is to assess your tolerance to the doses. You should 100% use a real SERM the day after the last dose of havoc and then every day for three weeks. Let me make it really simple...no SERM then no PH use. It is not worth risking gyno. I can stand some acne and low sex drive but man boobs are where I draw the line. Nolvadex is a gray area, it is a research chemical and can be purchased 100% legally for research use. What does that mean? Not for human consumption but the research chemical places make a human quality product and sell it to you. What you do with it in the privacy of your own house is not their concern. Don't try to take it on a plane or out of the country. Use common sense at all times but it is not "illegal" to own or buy it. It is sitting on my desk now for research purposes. It comes in an eye dropper bottle and the liquid is swallowed, either one ML for 20mg or 2 ML for 40mg.

I will PM you with the place I use to buy research chemicals. It is cheap, good and easy. I just tried a PM and my post count on this board is too low to send. I don't post often because I mostly lurk. I only posted because I didn't want you to make a big mistake. PM me your email address and I will be glad to tell you where to go.

Also I would make sure you are taking pretty high does of fish oil because Havoc is dry on your joints because during cycle your estrogen will be VERY low. 20g/day fish oil is a good place to start and adjust it from there. Havoc/epi is methylated and it is harsh on your liver....not like binge drinking every night for 6 months but still harsh. Some kind of cycle support stuff would be good too along with the liv 52 but it is not 100% needed. I know a lot of guys who just run havoc and nolva and nothing else. Ebay has Himalayas Liv 52, get a few bottles...that stuff is pretty cheap and usually comes from India. The liver has powerful regenerative qualities and will recover given time off. Make sure you take at least as much time off as you were on, so, Havoc 4 weeks+proper PCT 3 weeks+4 weeks off=total time --> good to go again.

dude thanks alot for the suggestions!! Much appreciated

 

[wolfe14]

with my Pct i plan on using revesitol, is there a need for a test booster like diesel test HD for example also? or will the reversitol be all i need for test?

 

[KgTomCat]

with my Pct i plan on using revesitol, is there a need for a test booster like diesel test HD for example also? or will the reversitol be all i need for test?

I dont know, never used Reveristol, are you running Havoc?

 

[wolfe14]

I dont know, never used Reveristol, are you running Havoc?

well i was going to run havoc but now most likely doing epistane for the leaning effect..Im just trying to complete my pct

 

[Cappy]

Couldn't he just use this stack...
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/ibe/epistane-cycle-support-post-cycle-support-stack.html?sel=1801

I realize this is for epi but, it's the same as havoc. It would cover cycle and post cycle support...??

 

[KgTomCat]

Couldn't he just use this stack...
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/ibe/epistane-cycle-support-post-cycle-support-stack.html?sel=1801

I realize this is for epi but, it's the same as havoc. It would cover cycle and post cycle support...??

thats the basic supps...you can do it, and be okay, or take the extra stuff and be on the safer side