EPI-Tren Recomp Log - Take2

[organometal]

I started this thread in supplement logs, but it should really be here. I will delete the other.
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joined the community last summer, stalked for a while, and thought it was time I get involved and do a log. Why not, right?

Four sentence back-story: Used to be in great shape, then got a desk job, then had 2 kids. I got lazy and fat. In 2013, I decided to turn my life back around, hit the weights, and lost 60+ pounds. I am probably in the best shape of my life, but like everyone else, want to be leaner and bigger.

In any case, I am 33, 169, 5'10", 11-12% BF. I don't plan on submitting photos so you'll have to take my word for it.

1 RMs for Reference:
Bench Press: 240 lbs
Squat: 305 lbs
Deadlift: 380 lbs

Cycle Goal: To end up at 8-9% and add as much mass as is feasible.

7 week cycle:
EPI: 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
Tren (oral not ace): 60/90/90/90/90/90/90
4-ad (# of tabs): 0/1/2/2/2/2/2 - - increase if necessary to combat lethargy, keep libido

Ancillaries:
Fish Oil
Creatine
Milk Thistle - - liver (will get TUDCA if I find some extra cash; may buy and run in PCT)
Vitamin B6 - - prolactin (will get inhibit-p if I get itchy/puffy)
Hawthorne Berry - - BP
Taurine - - back pumps (will use as needed)
Viagra - - as needed for libido

PCT:
Clomid: 50/50/50/50 (nolva on hand - I prefer it but read Clomid is better with 19-nors)
DAA - - natural test boost
Elimistane - - primarily for Cort control (will start week 2 of PCT)


Diet:
I plan to recomp/cut until I am satisfied with my leanness and then will very, very slowly bulk. I track all my food, but don't obsess over macros (yeah, yeah I know). My TDEE is 2400. I will shoot for 2500 cals, 200 g protein on recomp. When switching to bulk, I will shoot for +300-500.

Exercise:
Weights: Train 5 times a week; high volume
LISS: Walk 5-7 miles a day as part of my commute
HIIT: Kettlebell swing 3-4 times a week for 30 minutes (currently 500 swings at 55 lbs)

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I plan to update 2+ times a week with:
Weight Gain
Fat Loss
How I am feeling (sides)
and will answer questions as they pop up.

I am also hoping the community is able to answer any questions I provide advise as needed.

Questions off the bat:
I recognize that I am not a huge guy - - would TREN at 60mg suffice? I want to balance gains and sides.

Any value in switching to high intensity, lower volume near end of cycle to solidify gains and prep for PCT?

 

[organometal]

Holding slot for final update/review

 

[organometal]

Update 1:

I posted the log today, but started on the 12th - - so I am actually 1 week in. Not much to report as EPI takes several weeks to kick and Tren takes a week or two.

On day 3, I got seriously sick. This seems to be fairly common, but people always attribute to random colds, food poisoning, flu, etc. - I actually think it is akin to "test flu" (google it). I felt better by day 4. And, so far, have no other sides to report. I am sleeping fine, etc.

My calories for the week were: +400 total. I should eat more - - the goal is to be +700 or so for weeks of recomp.

I haven't gained/lost any weight.

Next update should include the Tren kick-in and then it should get more interesting.

 

[organometal]

Update 2 (day 11). Quick note to say that I don't feel anything yet - good or bad - and am a little surprised. I really expected that by the middle of week 2 I would start to feel Tren kicking in. I also thought I would have a relatively early shift in weight that would help me gauge if I should eat more or less, but I weigh the same as I did on day 1.

 

[organometal]

Update 3 ( day 15)

Week 2: 30 epi; 90 Tren

My cals for week 2: -400 (total) so I essentially ate at maintenance.

Weight: up .5 pounds for week; .5 lbs total. I appear slightly leaner.

Negative Sides: none to speak of. Am sleeping fine and cardio is fine.

Positive sides: this week I stopped getting DOMS.

All in all a pretty successful Recomp so far. I keep waiting for Tren to "kick in" so I can experience the alpha feeling people also says mention, but other than that I am satisfied so far.

 

[stillchillin]

I ran a epi,tr3n,tr3st cycle a while back made it up to epi:60 tren:120 tr3st:150 that **** had me raging and my emotions all over the place. Prolly never do that **** again, it was a sweet ass cycle dont get me wrong but the sides were terrible. Good luck bro. Ill follow along on this one.

 

[organometal]

I ran a epi,tr3n,tr3st cycle a while back made it up to epi:60 tren:120 tr3st:150 that **** had me raging and my emotions all over the place. Prolly never do that **** again, it was a sweet ass cycle dont get me wrong but the sides were terrible. Good luck bro. Ill follow along on this one.

Thanks for the info!

I keep reading about emotional/anger sides, but I am pretty even keeled so far. When did they kick in for you?

Also, how did the cycle treat as far as lean gains and bf loss?

 

[stillchillin]

I wasnt trying to get lean or anything was bulking the whole time. So i couldnt tell you. But also im a very calm person so i think it has more to do with your personal reacation as far as emotional side effects. I ran it for 6 weeks everything kicked in right at about the beginning of the 3rd week. The strength was crazy as well as the pumps.

 

[organometal]

Update 4: (day 19).

All is well! I am up in weight by just a little - looks like maybe .5 pounds a week average But I am noticeably leaner. I think I'll cut/Recomp through week 4 and then start to eat a little more.

Negative sides: starting to get some crazy dreams - weird. I am also waking before my alarm by a touch.

Positive sides: still no DOMS. Never being sore is a weird thing. I have been lifting to absolute muscle exhaustion - normally I'd feel like I got hit by a bus.

Sill running 30/90. Should I bump it up since I feel great or just just assume I am in the sweet spot?

 

[Atreyufan31]

Update 4: (day 19).

All is well! I am up in weight by just a little - looks like maybe .5 pounds a week average But I am noticeably leaner. I think I'll cut/Recomp through week 4 and then start to eat a little more.

Negative sides: starting to get some crazy dreams - weird. I am also waking before my alarm by a touch.

Positive sides: still no DOMS. Never being sore is a weird thing. I have been lifting to absolute muscle exhaustion - normally I'd feel like I got hit by a bus.

Sill running 30/90. Should I bump it up since I feel great or just just assume I am in the sweet spot?

I was getting th same weird dreams sides. I never usually dreamt, so I knew that was a Epi effect. If wait in bumping EPI till the week is over. Give your body time to react and adjust to the dosing, then crank it up.

Epi was best for me at 50mgs with no additional sides from 30mgs except maybe a little additional joint dryness. You'll love it

 

[organometal]

Update 5 ( day 22)

Week 3: 30 epi; 90 Tren

My cals for week 3: -1700 (total). I have unintentionally turned this into a cut.

Weight: up .4 pounds for week; .9 lbs total. I appear significantly leaner (will take measurements on Sunday)

Negative Sides: Still rocking the weird dreams. I also am getting sporadically hot - thought I was going to boil to death during a meeting this week, but couldn't bail it was awful.

Positive sides: Still no DOMS. My intensity and volume has also increased across the board on my lifts. I am not trying to set PRs, but pretty sure I could if I wanted.

As a recomp, this is still going pretty well. The call between maximizing gains and maximizing leanness is so tough. In the end, I think I would prefer to be shredded though and am willing to leave some gains on the table.

I am going to Epi:40; Tren 100 this week. Will come back down to 30/90 if I experience too many sides.

Any idea how much above TDEE I can eat and still lose fat at a reasonable rate? I am guessing I should be eating more than I am.

 

[Atreyufan31]

It's shame that you aren't trying to bulk a bit on this. Taking epi alone will shred you up while you bulk. You can still pqck on weight and cut up during the cycle

 

[organometal]

It's shame that you aren't trying to bulk a bit on this. Taking epi alone will shred you up while you bulk. You can still pqck on weight and cut up during the cycle

What would you recommend calorie-wise relative to TDEE? TDEE+300? +500?

 

[Atreyufan31]

500 should be fine. I just got done with my bulk on EPI solo and I put on 13 pounds while still cutting up. I was eating sloppy half the time and clean the other half. I was just trying to add weight and knew I could cut later, but EPI worked so well, that it did both at the same time. PH's are amazing to how they can transform your physique.

 

[organometal]

Update 6 (day 26).

Started eating around +500 a day. Up about 1 pound since Thursday (two total). Will keep the calories at this level unless I stop losing fat.

I am down a little more than .5" at my waist since the beginning of cycle. Pretty satisfied.

At this pace, I'll be shredded by the end of cycle.

No new sides to report.

Running epi/Tren at 40/100 this week.

 

[organometal]

Update 7 (day 29):

This is a pretty lonely log, but I think I'll power through - mostly because I hate not finishing things. It also keeps me focused.

Week 4 diet: + 2500 for the week. Generally around 200g protein. I don't worry about the rest.

Weight. Up 2.5 pounds total. I am also still getting leaner. I think I underestimated my bf% at the beginning and think I was probably hovering around 13%. I would say I am down to 11% - using weekly tape measurements.

For 4 weeks that would put me down 4 pounds fat and up 6 pounds lbm. Not too shabby.

Plan week 5: epi: 50; Tren: 110. Eating just above my normal maintenance has worked well so I am sticking to that.

 

[stillchillin]

I log more for my self then others just makes it easier to keep track. Ppls input and advice is like a bonus. I just had to scrap a dmz3,4andro cycle cause i have a trip out of state that just poped up, and it would have messed my pct up. Im not taking reasearch chems on a plane. Dont wanna have to explain it lol. Your cycle is lookin good tho man keep it up

 

[Atreyufan31]

Still here...

 

[organometal]

Thanks guys. I am still having fun!

 

[supaslowdx]

Subbed. Ran almost this identical cycle this winter. I was at 45epi and 100td tren. Also using dermacrine at 5 pumps a day.

Strength was amazing. Pumps amazing. Weight stayed the same but down three inches on the waist. Overall success imho.

Good luck with your run.

 

[organometal]

Hadn't originally planned to get up to 50 epi, but I have been mostly negative side free - just crazy dreams and occasionally boiling hot.

At 50, I think I should pay more attention to my liver so I picked up some tudca for the remainder of the cycle. Will be running 500mg a day.

 

[organometal]

Pct extras question:

Cycle ends in a couple weeks so time to dial in pct. I have clom., daa, and elimistane. Any value in adding stuff like laxogenin, epicatechin, soy lecithin, etc for helping keep muscle mass? Everyone is pushing them pretty hard right now, but no information for whether they'd be valuable in pct.

Anyway here is a quick update 8 (day 33):

Just crushed it in the gym on Saturday. Maybe best overall lifting experience I've ever had. I just never got tired and stayed for a couple hours. On Sunday, zero soreness.

Negative sides: since going to 50/110, my sleep quality is a little lower. But everything else seems fine.

My tudca showed up so I started dosing 500mg yesterday.

 

[Canes325]

If you have the extra $$ you can throw extras in. I personally would throw in follidrone and viron. Start it last week of cycle and run them for 8 weeks

ETA- I also would add Exemestane first or second week of pct.

 

[organometal]

Update 8 (day 37): Still on, still at Epi/Tren: 50/110, but seem to have hit stalled. I have stopped losing fat (at least by measurement) and am not really putting on a ton of weight. I continue to get stronger though.

Weight: I am up about 3 pounds total and down about 4 pounds fat. That is a gain of 7lbm (give or take). So not too much to complain about. I just don't like that it stopped changing over the last 7 days.

Training: 5 days a week, high volume. Lots of Liss.

Food: Averaging about +200 a day. High protein as always.

Negative sides: I am amazed that I haven't had many to speak of. The occasional headache, the occasional hot flash, and super weird dreams are about it.

Two weeks to go then PCT. I am not quite sure what the cause of the stall is, but I am going to really pay attention to diet and activity the next couple of days - maybe I have gotten lazy, but haven't noticed.

 

[stillchillin]

If you really feel like youve stalled and your ****s on point you could always bump up the dose of one or the other. If u do both id just up one wait a few days and up the other just to see if ether one brings new sides. Thats what id do anyway, i think i made it up to 60mg epi 150 tren and 125 trest.

 

[organometal]

Update 9 (day 43): I am in my last week with cycle ending next Thursday or when the Epi bottle is empty (whichever happens second). It will be close. I will continue the log through pct and then post a final review.


I am running these last two weeks at epi/Tren: 60/120. I stalled in week 5 and the bump up seems to have helped. I am no longer losing fat, but am still gaining weight. Eating at about +200-300 a day.

New negative sides: back pumps! They seem to be happening sporadically so I added in my taurine (1 gram a day). Other than that, I feel great.

I am having a hard time not talking myself into extending the Tren part of my cycle. I have an additional 4 weeks worth. Extend to 12 weeks now or run a 4 weeker later? No one seems to run Tren for 12 weeks and I assume there is a reason - more sides? More shutdown?

 

[stillchillin]

Prolly just looking at more sides or just having to deal with them longer, far as being shutdown, your already shut down so as far as that goes it might add to the time needed to recover, but correct me if im wrong once your shutdown your shutdown i dont think it can get anyworse then not making testosterone naturaly. Lol

 

[organometal]

Prolly just looking at more sides or just having to deal with them longer, far as being shutdown, your already shut down so as far as that goes it might add to the time needed to recover, but correct me if im wrong once your shutdown your shutdown i dont think it can get anyworse then not making testosterone naturaly. Lol

I didn't mean to imply that I would significantly lower my test production relative to the 8 week cycle. But I do imagine that it would lengthen my time for recovery.

There has to be a good reason people don't run longer cycles - efficacy drops? Kidney or liver concerns?

 

[stillchillin]

I would say the liver and kidneys is the reason why. Thats why i think most ppl prefer pinning than orals and ph/ds cause they are bad ass **** as far as toxicity.

 

[organometal]

True. True. I will stick with the plan and end my cycle next week. Will save my additional Tren for later use.

 

[organometal]

Update 10 (day 48 ): I completed the cycle on Sunday and began pct on Monday. I plan to log pct and then do a full review 3-4 weeks from now.

Weight: through the end of the cycle, I gained about 3 pounds and got down to 10% bf. That's a 5 pound fat loss and 8 pound lbm gain. Not too shabby. Most of that was in weeks 3 and 4. Weeks 5 and 6 moved the needle but not by a lot.

Pct plan:
clomid - 50/50/25/25
Daa: everyday for four weeks
Elimistane: one bottle starting one week into pct.

Negatives: I had a massive headache first day of pct. Not sure if related to cycle or clomid. Do people get clomid headaches or when coming off Tren?

 

[organometal]

Quick update: two weeks into pct and I feel great. No libido or mood issues to speak of.

I am eating at maintenance through pct and then will cut.