SD, Oratropin and more...

milwood

milwood

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2 weeks in to this cycle (start week 3 Monday), I am tweaking it according to how things go (as I always do). As of now it looks like this:
1) SD
2) SD, MDHT
3) SD, MDHT, Oratropin
4) ..... MDHT, Oratropin, M4OHN
5) ............... Oratropin, M4OHN
6) SD, ......... Oratropin, M4OHN
7) SD, ....................... M4OHN
8) SD, ....................... M4OHN
9-12) PCT = Rebound XT (possibly with nolva for 1-2 weeks). Possibly OT weeks 11-14 as well. Possibly clen weeks 7-8.

Up 2 1/2 pounds. Not feeling much from the SD for 1 1/2 weeks at 20mg I bumped it up to 30mg for now. Will start week 3 Monday.
 
milwood

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modified cycle: not feeling SD, bumped up from 20-30mg and switch stack from MDHT to M4OHN starting week 3;
week:
3) SD, Oratropin, M4OHN
4) ..... Oratropin, M4OHN
5) ..... Oratropin, M4OHN
6) SD, Oratropin, M4OHN
7) SD, ............. M4OHN , clen
8) SD, ............. M4OHN , clen
 
milwood

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Week 3:
SD 30mg/day
M4OHN 24mg/day
OT 1 daily dose
Up 2.5 lbs since strart of week 1. No hypo, no sides, no major "growth". Feeling tighter, good energy today.
 

max silver

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What's your diet/workout routine like? Only 2.5 pounds into week 3 seems pretty small compared to what most of the other cycles have beared out so far.
 
milwood

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Agreed, that's why I decided to add the M4OHN; SD simply isn't producing much. Sleep is in order, diet is above maintenance, pretty clean. Workouts are 5-days on/2-off. 1 major part/day, about 50 min to 1 hour each day. Cardio 2-3 times/week if I'm lucky. Possibly need to eat more, but I am seeking lean mass not an all out bulk. And as I said, it seems ther body comp changes are beginning to come, so I'm not that concerned with overall weight change per se. We'll see. It is a slow start, for sure. I'll have things to report for sure (positive or negative) as the weeks progress.
 
milwood

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Big leg day Monday (yesterday)--good workout. Good energy (today)Tues (back), but some cramping; back and stomach. Extra potassium, taurine pre- and post-workout. Going back to 20mg of SD just on general principle. This with 24mg M4OHN and the daily OT. Will weigh and report tomorrow.
 

Nate Dawg

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I've been running 40mg of sd for the past 10 days, and frontloaded the week before that with 60mg/day and honestly havent noticed anything any different. Maybe we are just sd non-responders? I sure wish it wasnt that way.
 
Syr

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I've been running 40mg of sd for the past 10 days, and frontloaded the week before that with 60mg/day and honestly havent noticed anything any different. Maybe we are just sd non-responders? I sure wish it wasnt that way
I think its possible :(
And that sucks so bad bro.

I'm really loving SD and as low as 10mg ED i'm gaining half lb A DAY.
 
Syr

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What's your diet/workout routine like? Only 2.5 pounds into week 3 seems pretty small compared to what most of the other cycles have beared out so far.
I got 2.5 lbs in the first 5 days ;)
I feel your pain, milwood
 
milwood

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Same weight today. Mild cramping; sort of a "full" feeling even before eating. Sore in a couple places. Good arm workout. May take tomorrow off weights to make sure I'm allowing enough recovery time. May drop the SD to 10mg for the last couple days of week 3 if cramping sets in. The M4OHN I don't expect to kick in right away. OT has not had any noticable effect, unless some of what I've reported is a result of that. I am not going to judge things yet, because again, there is some body recomp going on. I'm just never in to being miserable while "on" anything. (Imagine how I loved M1T...) Guess this makes me kind of a puss, huh???
 

Nate Dawg

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I coul dnt wait to get off my cycle of M1T, I felt like total ass while on that. The gains were alright though :)
 

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milwood: sometimes SD makes me have that "full feeling" but I just force myself to eat...Dont know why it does this sometimes (as it isnt all the time) but some days it just seems harder on cycle to consume the same amount of food as I normally do...you just gotta eat the food and think about being full later....
 

Lean One

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diet is above maintenance, pretty clean.... Cardio 2-3 times/week if I'm lucky. Possibly need to eat more, but I am seeking lean mass not an all out bulk..
This means nothing to me in terms of nutrition. Unless your nutrition is super dialed in, that's not enough cardio to accomplish your goal of a clean bulk. I'm guessing your slow results are more due to nutrition/cardio. Toying with dosages isn't gonna make up for that. I'm thinking pre and post WO nutrition could be improved upon. Gains from SD are highly dependant on glycogen repletion.

Not trying to be overly critical here mil, It's early in your cycle. Mabey there are some changes you can make to get the scale moving up.
 
Syr

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milwood: sometimes SD makes me have that "full feeling" but I just force myself to eat...Dont know why it does this sometimes (as it isnt all the time) but some days it just seems harder on cycle to consume the same amount of food as I normally do...you just gotta eat the food and think about being full later....
Yes, same to me. Its not exactly a nausea, somehting less. Lots of water and b12 seems to help me.
 
motiv8er

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Milwood, not that I want to agree with LO, but I think he may be right about your lack of gains. For me, eating is even more physcological than training. I envision myself weak until I have eaten a satisfactory amount of foods required at that sitiing. Then I envision myself fully fueled for more battle. if I am not fueled for battle, then I am a weak failure. My cycles have taught me more about nutrition than any one source. Everytime I think I have my nutrition dialed in, I am taught to think again.

I know you aren't trying to "blow up" with this cycle, but you should be pretty damn stacked looking by now. I would be a bad bro if I let you piss away all your chems. Good luck.

Hint* When I gauge my success on cycle, I gauge according to how many trips I have to make to the grocery not for protein, thats natural for me; but how often I have to replace my quality carb sources.

Good luck my firend.

PS Lean One, I hate you for having the cash for OT 4 weeks supply-- but I am WAITING on your log start manana!! :poke:
 
riskarb

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Milwood -- thanks for starting this thread; I have some SD I'd like to cycle with M4OHN.

Quick question: how many grams of protein?
 

Nate Dawg

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Lean One, just wondering if you could post what you recommend for pre and post w/o meals. For preworkout I have been eating one peanut butter and honey sandwich, 40g whey, then for post workout 50g whey and 60g of carbs from oatmeal. What do you eat?
 

diminuendo

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I responded great to 10 mgs and 20 mgs. I am 5'11', 188, 12-13%. My first cycle was 75mg ED of MDHT. I gained a couple of lbs., but hardened up nicely. That was last August. I went on a carb cycling cut for two months and then a brutal ultralow-carb cut through December, and got down to 168 7-8% I had a jiu-jitsu comp at that weight, and then got my SD in Jan. I decided to do a bulk, and started SD at 20 mgs ED alone. I upped my carb-intake to about 250grams ED which is about ten times (more actually) as many as I had been eating for months. I blew up like a baloon and had to stop 17 days into it due to cramping issues, and the fact that I was 19lbs. up. Holy stretch marks bat man. I dropped 7 lbs through a 3 week pct of nolva, and believe that I gained 2% fat or ~3.75 lbs., which makes for a net lean gain of 8.25 lbs., not too shabby for a little over two weeks. I just finished another two weeker of SD solo at 10-20 mgs ED and am in PCT (day 12) and am like my stats say 188 and holding. I am up to about 10-11% BF but loved SD. I would suggest a two week carb depletion previous to using it, just a hunch...Dim
 
milwood

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Thanks for all the suggestions/feedback. I totally appreciate it... even (constructive)criticism!!! Normally get ~250-300g of protein/day, Riskarb (but I only weigh 185).
 

Lean One

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Lean One, just wondering if you could post what you recommend for pre and post w/o meals. For preworkout I have been eating one peanut butter and honey sandwich, 40g whey, then for post workout 50g whey and 60g of carbs from oatmeal. What do you eat?
That sounds OK as long as the bread is a nice multigrain. I like to throw oats in a shake 1hr pre WO, then eat a solid low gi meal post WO. Oats w/ a phat omlett most of the time.
 

Lean One

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Thanks for all the suggestions/feedback. I totally appreciate it... even (constructive)criticism!!! Normally get ~250-300g of protein/day, Riskarb (but I only weigh 185).
What is your carb intake like? ( pre and post WO mainly)
 
motiv8er

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I am speculating but I imagine a VENDETTA type beverage would suit you best pre and post w/o with the addition of OT. What does your pre-during-post cocktail look like? Thanks Mil-
 
milwood

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I eat 1.5 hrs pre-workout about 50g of carbs (usually cooked oatmeal) mixed with 30 or so grams of whey protein. I also drink a pre/during cocktail of 10g of BCAA's, CM, taurine, potassium, and a few other goodies. Post-workout I make a shake with 45g whey protein and drink that with ~60-90g carbs--usually bran muffins, some kind of bread, or pour it over cereal, so I think the carbs around the workout are fairly well covered. I usually eat again 2 hrs after my post workout deal; a high protein real-food "dinner"; meat, veggies, etc. Total carb consumption daily is usually in the neighborhood of 250-325g.
 
milwood

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here's another question: How much over maintenance do people think should be eaten with the goal being lean bulk and using SD/M4OHN/OT? I am currently averaging maybe 200-500 cals over maintenance daily. Maybe my figures are off, and maybe I am undereating. I was sort-of under the impression that even at maintenance, it would be likely to see lean gains. And I am as I said a typically slow responder, so I'm guessing the overall effect of the cycle could be quite good. As for the cardio thing, I thought doing more might sacrifice gains. Again, I'm a true ecto/hardgainer and I'm 39 years old, so I'm in a slightly different situation than many. Thanks again for all the feedback.
 

Lean One

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As for the cardio thing, I thought doing more might sacrifice gains. Again, I'm a true ecto/hardgainer and I'm 39 years old, so I'm in a slightly different situation than many. Thanks again for all the feedback.
True low intensity cardio will not sacrifice gains.It can actually help recovery from the increased bloodflow to muscles. Higher intensity cardio can affect gains 'cuz you're burning up glycogen stores.

It seems like you have the carbs you need so mabey it will just take more time. I did notice your protein intake seems a little high. Even on a cycle.1.5 gm/lb is plenty. anymore is just exess calories that will be stored as fat IMO.
 
milwood

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Nothing to report differently as of today. Took today off from the gym and I think I needed it! I have decided to see how I feel on Sat (at the conclusion of 3 weeks) and make an executive decision on what's next. I will either: A) continue OT and M4OHN as planned for 3 and 5 weeks, respectively, and possibly kicking SD back in for weeks 6-8 (the long-ass-cycle plan), B) roll with the OT and M4OHN for weeks 4-6, then start PCT, or C) begin PCT next week (making it just a 3 weeker) so I can utilize the OT for the 3 PCT weeks along with RXT. If I go that way, I'll follow 3 PCT weeks with 3-6 weeks off and plan for my next cycle in early summer. No matter which, I'll be getting blood work and rethinking my diet/nutrition plan. I'll kick AAKG and CEE back in along with LX, trib, longjack, and ZMA. I actually plan on getting bloodwork 2 or possibly 3 times after this cycle to check liver/test values at various stages, which I will of course post. Thanks again for everyone's input. Now, I must go consult the Oracle to determine my future...
 
ryansm

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What are you doing differently from your normal routine before starting this cycle?

Are you noticing any body re-comp changes?

Are you gaining fat?

How are the strength increases?
 
milwood

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So although I don't doubt the efficacy of SD and am a huge proponent of DS, I have simply not found the gains. Protein and carbs are in check, cals 200-500g bove maintenance daily, plenty of good fat, 8 hrs sleep. So it goes. Some have reported that the gains may kick in later. My plan was 3 on/2 off/3 on for the SD, so I'm gonna kick LMG in, and see how things go.

I'm gonna run week 4-6 with OT (continuing) and also run LMG (20mg/day), 12mg M4OHN, and 600mg 19-nor diol ( at the good Dr. (D's) suggestion.
 
Syr

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So although I don't doubt the efficacy of SD and am a huge proponent of DS, I have simply not found the gains. Protein and carbs are in check, cals 200-500g bove maintenance daily, plenty of good fat, 8 hrs sleep. So it goes. Some have reported that the gains may kick in later. My plan was 3 on/2 off/3 on for the SD, so I'm gonna kick LMG in, and see how things go.

I'm gonna run week 4-6 with OT (continuing) and also run LMG (20mg/day), 12mg M4OHN, and 600mg 19-nor diol ( at the good Dr. (D's) suggestion.
SD needs that u increase the protein in your diet significantly. Besides this, in my case the weight gains stopped and the strenght gains are coming after the first week.
I think i'll stick with my plan of 2on/2off/3 on. I think running a third week would be a waste, but time will tell.
What about strenght? No change in that too?

Which is your Oratropin impression, trying to take it apart from the other components of your cycle?
If i read the logs correctly, it must be the main responsible for the leaning out.
 

Lean One

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Personally, I feel the gains from SD are more dependant on glycogen as aposed to protein.Specificly pre and post WO carb intake. Sure, you want to increase protein when on any androgen, But I hardly ever go above 1.5gm/lb lbm.
 
BodyWizard

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yeah - enquiring minds want to know!
(thanks for the bump, Kristopher)
 
milwood

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well, since it was back in March, I dunno....
No, actually I do. I kept approx. 8 lbs of LBM and also got a nice body recomp effect, losing several lbs of fat around the midsection (the only place I ever gain/store fat). I was frustrated because of A)SLOW (almost non-responder) gains from SD, B) Oratropin (didn't notice much), and C) some noticable sides (cramps/bloat) which came and went. So even though I was sniveling at the time, the cycle worked out favorably in effect. It was really obvious to me after PCT that although less pronounced than I expected, I have kept those gains! My personal feeling still is that OT should be dosed higher for stronger effect. That is, if 40mcg is a good IM dose, an orally absorbed dose should be higher to produce an equivalent effect. I'm not a scientist, however. But what I really like now is the idea of using IGF-1 (oral/OT or IM) for PCT. I now include it in PCT every time (if I can afford to...). Oh, and one more thing; M4OHN is still one of my favorites for ending a cycle, solidifying lean/hard. I suggest 6 weeks of it, though, so if I do 4 weeks at the end with 36mg/day ideally, I'll do 8mg/day for 2 weeks prior (stacked with whatever) just to get it in my system early.
 
Syr

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well, since it was back in March, I dunno....
No, actually I do. I kept approx. 8 lbs of LBM and also got a nice body recomp effect, losing several lbs of fat around the midsection (the only place I ever gain/store fat). I was frustrated because of A)SLOW (almost non-responder) gains from SD, B) Oratropin (didn't notice much), and C) some noticable sides (cramps/bloat) which came and went. So even though I was sniveling at the time, the cycle worked out favorably in effect. It was really obvious to me after PCT that although less pronounced than I expected, I have kept those gains! My personal feeling still is that OT should be dosed higher for stronger effect. That is, if 40mcg is a good IM dose, an orally absorbed dose should be higher to produce an equivalent effect. I'm not a scientist, however. But what I really like now is the idea of using IGF-1 (oral/OT or IM) for PCT. I now include it in PCT every time (if I can afford to...).
Why dont u try hexatropin the next time? for recomp it should be superior to IGF-1.
 
milwood

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Why dont u try hexatropin the next time? for recomp it should be superior to IGF-1.
I'm liking IGF-1, but yeah, very interested in hexatropin. Might use it next PCT as a comparison.
 

statuz

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Personally, I feel the gains from SD are more dependant on glycogen as aposed to protein.Specificly pre and post WO carb intake. Sure, you want to increase protein when on any androgen, But I hardly ever go above 1.5gm/lb lbm.
Hey i got a few questions for you Lean one, First of all what does that mean when you say SD's gains are more dependent on glycogen as aposed to protein, and second of all can you give me an example of a few ways to incrse your glycogen.
 

Lean One

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Hey i got a few questions for you Lean one, First of all what does that mean when you say SD's gains are more dependent on glycogen as aposed to protein, and second of all can you give me an example of a few ways to incrse your glycogen.
Glycogen is stored carbohydrate in the muscle adding to its fullness. Glycogen replenishment is part of the process that has to take place before your muscles can add protein. Bottom line, eat lots of good carbs pre and post WO.
 

statuz

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Glycogen is stored carbohydrate in the muscle adding to its fullness. Glycogen replenishment is part of the process that has to take place before your muscles can add protein. Bottom line, eat lots of good carbs pre and post WO.
thank you for the clarification
 

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