Double Epistane Log - Should be interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post
    It's all good man, I just got home from the airport from Christmas break and got my raloxifene from the mail. So I'm going to start tonight and kick this thing in the butt right away.

    I'll keep you guys updated on how the anti-gyno treatment goes. I'll be following Luke's advice and running Raloxifene and Exemestane. If that doesn't work I'm gonna run letro, but I'm positive this should take care of it because what I have is very mild, mostly puffy sensitive nips, and I think I can feel a small lump forming.

    For all you experts on here, do you think my rebound was due to taking Clomid&Nolva, which might have been too much suppression of my estrogen levels? I think I may try to just run 1 SERM next time...
    I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.
    I think so too, the erase obviously didn't do anything to keep my estrogen from aromatizing. Next time I'm gonna go with exemestane which is a much more powerful AI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post

    It's all good man, I just got home from the airport from Christmas break and got my raloxifene from the mail. So I'm going to start tonight and kick this thing in the butt right away.

    I'll keep you guys updated on how the anti-gyno treatment goes. I'll be following Luke's advice and running Raloxifene and Exemestane. If that doesn't work I'm gonna run letro, but I'm positive this should take care of it because what I have is very mild, mostly puffy sensitive nips, and I think I can feel a small lump forming.

    For all you experts on here, do you think my rebound was due to taking Clomid&Nolva, which might have been too much suppression of my estrogen levels? I think I may try to just run 1 SERM next time...
    Don't forget to add in your remaining nolva along side the raloxifene. The combination of the two is better than one or the other. Sorry I thought I mentioned that in our earlier conversation.
    All serms increase circulating estrogen, that's usually the reason why you run your AI past your serm by a couple weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post

    I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.
    Hmm an AI with additional cortisol control caused your gyno?? You sure it wasn't from the booze, alcohol is known to raise your e2 levels, and if you've just come off of something that bids to the estrogen receptor..... Well you do the maths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Don't forget to add in your remaining nolva along side the raloxifene. The combination of the two is better than one or the other. Sorry I thought I mentioned that in our earlier conversation. All serms increase circulating estrogen, that's usually the reason why you run your AI past your serm by a couple weeks.
    Ok I'll take my nolva this morning. I guess I'm just afraid of over doing it lol. I'll keep it to 30mg/day, and with an AI as powerful as exem it should squash any estrogen that tries to rebound when I come off
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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.
    I don't know about this...
    I can't see how Erase can cause gyno.
    It may not have helped in preventing a rebound, but I'm not sure how it can be the cause of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggy_dog View Post
    I don't know about this...
    I can't see how Erase can cause gyno.
    It may not have helped in preventing a rebound, but I'm not sure how it can be the cause of it.
    I was fine on the nolva then after erase it hit me erase blocked all the estrogen then bam my body probably thought it was too low and it hit me. That's my theory. Next time I'm trying only Nolva. I'm running nolva now 40/20/20/10/10 and see if it helps. No a.i. Just taper down slowly. I'm pissed as hell because I wanted to start another cycle in a week or two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post

    I was fine on the nolva then after erase it hit me erase blocked all the estrogen then bam my body probably thought it was too low and it hit me. That's my theory. Next time I'm trying only Nolva. I'm running nolva now 40/20/20/10/10 and see if it helps. No a.i. Just taper down slowly. I'm pissed as hell because I wanted to start another cycle in a week or two.
    AIs don't block estrogen. They work on blocking aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. Erase is a suicidal
    AI which actually kills aromatase making gyno impossible. If you ran for example anastrzole then it may be possible as it is a non suicidal AI and only deactivates the enzyme and once you discontinue they can reactivate and can cause rebound issues. But your theory makes zero sense. FYI having zero estrogen doesn't cause gyno.
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    Question for you guys. Do you think being on Raloxifene and Nolva would hinder my strength at all? Because my squat has dropped significantly as well as my snatch, clean, presses etc. I can't figure it out but there's a huge drop off. I figure since I'm not coming off a cycle it might just be really inhibiting my strength. Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    AIs don't block estrogen. They work on blocking aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. Erase is a suicidal
    AI which actually kills aromatase making gyno impossible. If you ran for example anastrzole then it may be possible as it is a non suicidal AI and only deactivates the enzyme and once you discontinue they can reactivate and can cause rebound issues. But your theory makes zero sense. FYI having zero estrogen doesn't cause gyno.
    Thanks I got mixed up. I'm gonna be out for nolva for 2 days after tonight because of the stupid blizzard and shipping delays should I take erase on two days without nolva? I've been on nolva for 1.5 weeks now 40/40/40 and 20 for rest of the days. I'm trying to get rid of the gyno.

    OP my strength it down too and idk why even before the nolva it went down. I was fine like a month after pct then my strength tanked but so did my diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    Thanks I got mixed up. I'm gonna be out for nolva for 2 days after tonight because of the stupid blizzard and shipping delays should I take erase on two days without nolva? I've been on nolva for 1.5 weeks now 40/40/40 and 20 for rest of the days. I'm trying to get rid of the gyno. OP my strength it down too and idk why even before the nolva it went down. I was fine like a month after pct then my strength tanked but so did my diet.
    It's really starting to piss me off. I'm gonna wait two weeks and jump right back into another cycle, cuz this is bull****. I worked so hard on my last cycle for these strength gains and now they're all but gone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post
    It's really starting to piss me off. I'm gonna wait two weeks and jump right back into another cycle, cuz this is bull****. I worked so hard on my last cycle for these strength gains and now they're all but gone
    Haha I'm doing the same thing (along with being pissed as hell). I'm gonna run epi and probably clen too!
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    Sorry to hear guys. That totally sucks.

    Aaron, how is your weight holding up? Have you lost any more or have you maintained?
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggy_dog View Post
    Sorry to hear guys. That totally sucks. Aaron, how is your weight holding up? Have you lost any more or have you maintained?
    I've lost pretty much all that too. I'm around 196, and I started the cycle at 193 in September.
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    Dang man that sucks I lost maybe 5 lbs. but a lot of strength. I went from doing 80lb. dumbells easily down to 70s. on shoulders. I went from benching 245x8 to struggling on 225 for 5 reps. Its been my diet and lack of exercise I think. School work and work in general has caught up to me and gym time has been cut down unfortunately. My new log has been posted although I'm not starting yet. If you want to join in the thread feel free provide some advice and tips. Thanks!

    Time to get "supercuts" (epi+clen) log!
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    Just did shoulder press. Here is a real example of how much my strength levels are down

    2 months ago right at the start of my PCT I did this weight on shoulder press

    125-145-160-145-125

    The reps I got for each weight was:

    5-3-7-7-12

    Today I got:

    5-3-3-6-10

    Huge drop off on the 160# bar. I got more than twice as many reps 2 months ago.

    Discouraging to say the least, but all the more reason to try 1 more cycle once this gyno is gone.

    Puffiness has reduced dramatically but I still feel the small bump directly underneath the nipple. Gonna wait till that disappears, the. Taper down and start the AI.
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    How's the ralox working? I think I'm gonna pick some up since letro has too many sides and should be a last resort and I've read ralox works even better then letro.
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    So what do you think went wrong in PCT?
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    So far I've seen a minimal amount of decrease Id say. The lump has decreased a bit but still hurts to the touch sometimes. Puffiness has also decreased a bit. I'm gonna continue the raloxifene for another month for sure
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    Hey you guys, question. Is it normal to experience pain in your testicles while on a SERM? My left testicle has been radiating this pain all day long and it hurts pretty damn bad. Have any of you experienced this? And should I be worried?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post
    Hey you guys, question. Is it normal to experience pain in your testicles while on a SERM? My left testicle has been radiating this pain all day long and it hurts pretty damn bad. Have any of you experienced this? And should I be worried?
    I recall reading somewhere that it's normal for them to hurt when they regrow, just as when they shrink.
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    I hope so lol. The thing is tho they haven't been shrunk at all since November when I finished my cycle. But I'm sure it's just a hormonal thing of some kind that will go away once I'm off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post
    I hope so lol. The thing is tho they haven't been shrunk at all since November when I finished my cycle. But I'm sure it's just a hormonal thing of some kind that will go away once I'm off.
    Did you experience much atrophy on cycle? I've had some minor pain but not much shrinkage - any reduction in size might just be in my head.
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    Yea I did see some minor atrophy, but it was mostly the sex drive crashing than anything else. The pain stopped yesterday around 4 or 5pm. Haven't had any yet today. But it was killing me yesterday morning while I was trying to coach a class. It was all I could do to keep it together and not grab my nuts in pain each time LOL
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    Yep. I had some pain. Kinda like getting blue balls but a bit more intense. It didnt really last long.
    GAME ON! MOVAH FUKAZ!
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/231867-man-sports-gameday.html#post4047619
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    My nuts hurt 5th day into pct... Lasted bout half a day or so can't remember... If you wanna keep your gains Aaron for next cycle.. Consider clenbuterol
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    Yeah I've had some pretty bad pain since starting PCT, mostly in the mornings for some reason. Day six and it seems to have stopped now.
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    Great log!! I just recently joined this site as I have been researching Epi for a while now.
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    Just as an update to those who might care, the raloxifene has been working pretty well. Not as fast as is like, but I'm on my third bottle of it and the tissue that formed has all but disappeared. I have another months supply left and I am just going to use it all out, because I still experience some pain under the nipple if I lay flat on the ground and roll over it. I never had this pain before, so that tells me there is still some tissue in there. I can feel it, but it's directly under the nipple and extremely tiny. There is no visual difference at all anymore which is great. But I really don't want to always have this minor pain and sensitivity, so I'll continue use for anther month and see if it completely erases it or not.

    Also testicular pain hasn't occurred again since that one day where I was really bad. Not sure what to make of that, but I guess it's no big deal.

    I applied to the police department here in OKC and I am in the interview process. If I get chosen to go to the police academy they will put me through a drug test and a physical so I'm going to wait after that to do another Epi cycle.

    It's really funny though cuz there's a handful of cops at OCPD that are very obviously juicing up. They are stupid jacked. It's awesome lol
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    Thanks for the update and logging, helped me out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post
    Just as an update to those who might care, the raloxifene has been working pretty well. Not as fast as is like, but I'm on my third bottle of it and the tissue that formed has all but disappeared. I have another months supply left and I am just going to use it all out, because I still experience some pain under the nipple if I lay flat on the ground and roll over it. I never had this pain before, so that tells me there is still some tissue in there. I can feel it, but it's directly under the nipple and extremely tiny. There is no visual difference at all anymore which is great. But I really don't want to always have this minor pain and sensitivity, so I'll continue use for anther month and see if it completely erases it or not. Also testicular pain hasn't occurred again since that one day where I was really bad. Not sure what to make of that, but I guess it's no big deal. I applied to the police department here in OKC and I am in the interview process. If I get chosen to go to the police academy they will put me through a drug test and a physical so I'm going to wait after that to do another Epi cycle. It's really funny though cuz there's a handful of cops at OCPD that are very obviously juicing up. They are stupid jacked. It's awesome lol
    glad to hear the raloxifene is doing its job.
    Haha funny you mention about the jacked cops, I have a mate it the police force and he's a juice pig. Absolutely massive dude! He had a pre employment medical/drug test and hasn't been tested since.
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    Alright guys, I need some advice. I'd like to get a consensus on what the best idea is.

    I still have a small remnant of the gyno and it's not going away. Been on Raloxifene for over two months now and it can't seem to kick the last remaining bit. It's not alot, just a small, very hard lump underneath the nipples and makes them a little puffier than they were before the cycle. It's not noticable at all when they are hard thankfully, but the real thing I hate about it the most is the pain I get when laying on my chest if I roll over my nipple. The way I see it, I have three options:

    1) Continue to use the Raloxifene for like two more months. Maybe up the dosage from 60mg/day to 100mg/day? Not sure if that would make a difference though.

    2) Go on another Epi cycle, because Epi is known for getting rid of gyno, at least while on cycle. When I come off the cycle I will do about an 8 week PCT with heavy Nolva/Raloxifene tapering down, using Exemestane as my AI. That way the Epi will get rid of my gyno and the Nolva/Ralox combo would ensure no breast tissue would reform during PCT.

    3) Try Letro. I bought some but I'm not sure if its any more effective than the Raloxifene.

    What do you guys think?
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    If your chomping at the bit to get on cycle man I'd go ahead and do it. The problem with Epi is rebound gyno so it definitely won't get any worse during another cycle. That pct sounds like a solid idea since your obviously gyno prone.
    If it were me I would run another cycle hit another cycle, pct with raloxifene and nolva and if there's still the hard lump afterwards I would go down the letrozole route.
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    Thanks again man, I think that's what I'll do. Not necessarily because I'm chomping at the bit to do another cycle (although I do want to), but just because I think that would be the most effective route.

    I'm finally now, after 3 solid months and 4 bottles later, cycling of the Raloxifene. Luckily in the past few days I've seen a dramatic decrease in the size and hardness of the lump, and the puffiness has gone down a lot too. I would say there's only 5% remaining from what I originally had. Only way I know it's still there is because of the slight pain I feel when I lay on it.

    I will update every week or so on this thread when I start my next cycle, both on how the gains are coming and on how the gyno is doing. Hopefully I can fully eradicate it.
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    This has to be my favorite log of epi so far. Super informative and actual issues with gyno that needed to be dealt with.

    Thanks for the log, Aaron.

    -djslife
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    Quote Originally Posted by djslife View Post
    This has to be my favorite log of epi so far. Super informative and actual issues with gyno that needed to be dealt with. Thanks for the log, Aaron. -djslife
    Dude I am really stoked to hear that! Thanks for the compliment. I really take the most pleasure out of helping others and contributing to the knowledge and research of this fairly new supplement field. Totally worth making a few costly mistakes if dozens or more of guys can learn from mine and avoid themselves.

    I guess it would be a good idea to do a summary post of the whole entire log for people who are looking for quick answers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron330 View Post
    Dude I am really stoked to hear that! Thanks for the compliment. I really take the most pleasure out of helping others and contributing to the knowledge and research of this fairly new supplement field. Totally worth making a few costly mistakes if dozens or more of guys can learn from mine and avoid themselves.

    I guess it would be a good idea to do a summary post of the whole entire log for people who are looking for quick answers
    I agree with you on that. It makes planning out future cycles feel a little safer. We all have questions and we all want to do this the right way. Definitely throw up a post about your pre, during, and post cycle supplementation. That way we can see the best way to attack it in the future.

    I'm slowly gathering info on how I'll be doing my first cycle down the road so this makes a world of difference.

    Thanks again,

    -djslife
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    **SUMMARY POST OF ENTIRE CYCLE**

    I preloaded cycle assist and Liv.52 for a week

    LGI Epi-10 30/30/30/45/45/45
    Aegis Shield of the gods

    Cycle went great. Only side effects I got during cycle were dry joints, which weren't horrible but did bother me quite a bit the last 2 weeks. I was taking fish oil and supercissus which kept it at bay.

    I started the cycle at 193lb, got up to 207 on cycle, and dropped down to 204 during PCT. Gained 40 lbs in bench press, 50 lbs in Back Squat, 40lbs on deadlift, and about 20 lbs on Overhead Press. I made it a point on cycle to lift heavy 5-6 days a week. I did alot of CrossFit as well and didn't check my body fat before but I definitely lost a bit of body fat too. Overall the cycle itself was amazing and I made almost steroid-like gains. It was everything I hoped for and then some.

    Post cycle was where things really went wrong. I have a sensitive digestion system and the DAA I took absolutely wrecked my colon. Horrible stomach cramps for about 10 days. It was too acidic and gave me the most abominable, excruciating acid diarrhea you can imagine. It was honestly the most painful thing I've ever experienced. Almost made me cry grown man tears.

    So because of that, I couldn't eat for about a week or work out, and so I lost most of my gains. I dropped down to 195 again, although I was able to keep most of my strength gains.

    Now during PCT I took Nolva and Clomid, and planned on doing Erase as my AI 3/3/2/1. About the last week of taking Erase, I noticed my nipples were getting puffy. I felt a large dime sized lump underneath and immediately knew I had gotten rebound gyno. The Erase was obviously not strong enough. Worst part was that I was on vacation in Cali for the week of Christmas, so I immediately ordered Raloxifene and when I got back to my home in Oklahoma City, it was there waiting for me. After about 2 months of 60mg/day, the Raloxifene had completely taken care of my gyno. And it was great because there were NO side effects at all from the Ralox. No suppression, no nothing. I actually was able to make great natural gains for the two months I was on it. I am a huge fan of this SERM now and I will always use it in my pct from now on. Stuff works like magic.

    What I would do differently next time is take Tropinol XP for my natural test booster instead of DAA during PCT, and take Exemestane as my AI instead of Erase. The Erase was an absolute joke and was clearly not effective enough. My buddy did the same exact cycle as me And I told him to do 4/4/3/2/1 and that seemed to work for him, as he did not get gyno.

    Epistane was an amazing compound and is about the safest you can use on the market and still make great gains. I HIGHLY recommend anyone on cycle take plenty of liver support. TUDCA Liver shield, Liv. 52 and a cycle support. Simply because why not? It's your liver, take care of it because if you damage it with PH cycles you are ****ed for life. And these supplements are cheap so its absolutely stupid not to.

    I highly recommend Epistane to anyone looking to do a PH cycle, just make sure you really know what you're doing in PCT and you will make great gains with this PH.
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    Mystere3's Avatar
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    Ralox doesn't really stimulate the hpta, it's great for gyno though. Two serms for pct was overkill.
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    Lukef2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere3 View Post
    Ralox doesn't really stimulate the hpta, it's great for gyno though. Two serms for pct was overkill.
    Not really they do go about the same thing via two different avenues and for the price I always tend to run two + a myriad of other things lol I tend to spend a **** load on pct.
  

  
 

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