First PH Cycle! HAVOC

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    I finish my run of 30/30/30/30/40 today. My bodyweight went from 204 to 216 while looking a bit leaner. My max bench went from 280 to 315. My deadlift went from 385 to 425 raw and squat from 335 to 365. My sides were never that bad. I will start my PCT with Torem tomorrow. I may run another cycle in the winter as long as I recover well.

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    Awesome! What week did you see the most gains? Best of luck with PCT.
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    In week three it was really obvious I had gotten stronger. I felt stronger after the first week but I really started adding weight to the bar towards the end of week two into week three. My bodyweight reached its max at the start of week three, but I think I would be at 220lbs now if I had been able to eat more. I work a lot and don't have much time to eat while on my 12 hour shifts. Whats strange is that a lot of my sides went away went I jumped to 40mg a day and I felt less moody and lethargic. If I do another cycle I will most likely start at 40 ed.
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    Sub for reading. Good stuff so far
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    24 days into my cycle and I must say 40 mg feels great. I've gotten used to the lethargy and the pumps in the gym are insane. My physique looks totally different in the gym and I'm starting to notice an increase in muscle mass and decrease in fat especially in my stomach area. Also, scalp itch was easily taken care of with some Nizoral shampoo (thank god). If things continue to go well I may even bump up to 50 mg towards the end of the cycle to maximize gains.
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    Sounds good except for pumps and lethargy. I'm doing 4.5 weeks of epistane 20 mg for first 3 days then 30mg for rest. Will 20/20/10/10 nolvadex be enough I read standard is 40/40/20/20 and my bottle is only 30ml and 20mg per/ml.
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    Weirdest thing happened today. As I was lifting I felt a tearing sensation on my upper back and as I looked in the mirror I noticed stretch marks literally forming. Hopefully it's a good thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by dz1553 View Post
    Weirdest thing happened today. As I was lifting I felt a tearing sensation on my upper back and as I looked in the mirror I noticed stretch marks literally forming. Hopefully it's a good thing
    Feeling any sort of tearing can never be a good thing
    Always willing to learn :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    Sounds good except for pumps and lethargy. I'm doing 4.5 weeks of epistane 20 mg for first 3 days then 30mg for rest. Will 20/20/10/10 nolvadex be enough I read standard is 40/40/20/20 and my bottle is only 30ml and 20mg per/ml.
    20/20/10/10 is good
    Why not zoidberg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRigg View Post
    Feeling any sort of tearing can never be a good thing
    Rapid growth so skin is stretching maybe? Lol still would weird me out
    Why not zoidberg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    20/20/10/10 is good
    Yes thanks! I didn't' want to hijack this thread or make a new one. I have bad eyesight too so lower dose will be better as nolva is bad for vision (cause blurry vision among other things) with that so I might also take an eye support supplement during pct in place of my multi or along with it.

    Now then back to the thread OP you have cycle assist which has milk thistle some people say that taking that during cycle will decrease the effectiveness of pro hormones. What is your take and how many hours apart do you space out the cycle assist from havoc? I've read 4 hours minimum and also milk thistles half life is 6 hours or so. I'd probably take my cycle support before bed to be safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    Yes thanks! I didn't' want to hijack this thread or make a new one. I have bad eyesight too so lower dose will be better as nolva is bad for vision (cause blurry vision among other things) with that so I might also take an eye support supplement during pct in place of my multi or along with it.

    Now then back to the thread OP you have cycle assist which has milk thistle some people say that taking that during cycle will decrease the effectiveness of pro hormones. What is your take and how many hours apart do you space out the cycle assist from havoc? I've read 4 hours minimum and also milk thistles half life is 6 hours or so. I'd probably take my cycle support before bed to be safe.
    Lol I take it halfway between my havoc doses. I don't really care if it decreases the effects a little... I like my liver lol. If its really that much of a concern then just get some tuddca
    Why not zoidberg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    Lol I take it halfway between my havoc doses. I don't really care if it decreases the effects a little... I like my liver lol. If its really that much of a concern then just get some tuddca
    From what I have reserached, and the cost to benefit of Tudca, I would never run a cycle without it.
    NP has their own brand for $23. What?!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewsicle3210 View Post

    From what I have reserached, and the cost to benefit of Tudca, I would never run a cycle without it.
    NP has their own brand for $23. What?!?!
    TUDCA is the way to go. Far superior to regular milk thistle. TUDCA removes the bile from your liver which causes liver stress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    TUDCA is the way to go. Far superior to regular milk thistle. TUDCA removes the bile from your liver which causes liver stress.
    Would there be any benefit to running both? Say AI Cycle Support and Tudca?
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewsicle3210 View Post

    Would there be any benefit to running both? Say AI Cycle Support and Tudca?
    You could if you wanted to. It is overkill. The toxicity of orals is very much overrated. Id always run a liver support and TUDCA is the best so I'd just stick with that personally. And for $23 it's cheaper than most on cycle supports.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post

    You could if you wanted to. It is overkill. The toxicity of orals is very much overrated. Id always run a liver support and TUDCA is the best so I'd just stick with that personally. And for $23 it's cheaper than most on cycle supports.
    ^^^this!

    And for the guy who loved it at 40mg I ran EPI like this.

    40/40/40/60/60/60

    EPI from what I've seen is usually ran way too low. Everybody is different for sure. Glad toy guys enjoyed your runs with it!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    ^^^this!

    And for the guy who loved it at 40mg I ran EPI like this.

    40/40/40/60/60/60

    EPI from what I've seen is usually ran way too low. Everybody is different for sure. Glad toy guys enjoyed your runs with it!!
    What was the difference between 40 and 60?
    Sides?
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    No difference in sides, major strength increase. I would get a pump just lifting a case of oil at work lol. Didn't get that at 40. Granted most say you don't fully notice it till week three but I felt it around day 12. Back pumps on deads and squats were my only real side. Did forget my cissus towards the end and noticed a bit of joint issues but nothing horrible.

    Again everyone is different. I'm also on TRT so I had a test base and no need for PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    No difference in sides, major strength increase. I would get a pump just lifting a case of oil at work lol. Didn't get that at 40. Granted most say you don't fully notice it till week three but I felt it around day 12. Back pumps on deads and squats were my only real side. Did forget my cissus towards the end and noticed a bit of joint issues but nothing horrible.

    Again everyone is different. I'm also on TRT so I had a test base and no need for PCT.
    I am on trt as well. But one thing I don't understand about this no PCT theory. What about estro rebound? I understand you don't need to restart test, but shouldn't there be a serm anyways after the cycle for gyno prevention?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    No difference in sides, major strength increase. I would get a pump just lifting a case of oil at work lol. Didn't get that at 40. Granted most say you don't fully notice it till week three but I felt it around day 12. Back pumps on deads and squats were my only real side. Did forget my cissus towards the end and noticed a bit of joint issues but nothing horrible.

    Again everyone is different. I'm also on TRT so I had a test base and no need for PCT.
    This is the opposite for me. When I bumped to 50mg from 40mg I noticed a big increase in lethargy and the back and calve pumps became unbearable. But I'm not on trt and didn't have a test base which from what I've read is a major cause of prohormone based lethargy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewsicle3210 View Post

    I am on trt as well. But one thing I don't understand about this no PCT theory. What about estro rebound? I understand you don't need to restart test, but shouldn't there be a serm anyways after the cycle for gyno prevention?
    No issues with estrogen for me. I take adex eod or e3d depending. You are correct however in your thinking. It has been know to happen to guys during pct or after. All I can speak from is experience. I absolutely crushed my estrogen going into a show and had zero rebound from that as well. I know I didn't directly answer your question but that's my experience. I've never had estrogen sides yet. Are you on an AI for your trt? Have checked estrogen levels and monitored them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post

    This is the opposite for me. When I bumped to 50mg from 40mg I noticed a big increase in lethargy and the back and calve pumps became unbearable. But I'm not on trt and didn't have a test base which from what I've read is a major cause of prohormone based lethargy.
    Again my point lol. Everybody is different :-). A test base is a must IMO.
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    You could try forma or erase if you want. Adex, aramosin would be better IMO. Like I said everyone is different.
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    So I'm wrapping up my cycle and I am pleased with the gains. I put on 10-15 lbs of lean muscle and my strength went way up. The next step is obviously PCT. Is it okay to take my clomid, daa, and erase all at once? Also, how many DAA capsules should I take?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dz1553 View Post
    So I'm wrapping up my cycle and I am pleased with the gains. I put on 10-15 lbs of lean muscle and my strength went way up. The next step is obviously PCT. Is it okay to take my clomid, daa, and erase all at once? Also, how many DAA capsules should I take?
    Lol yes
    Also it depends on what the caps are dosed at... you need 3g a day so whatever equals to that
    Why not zoidberg?
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    I'm just wrapping up my first week of PCT and I have had zero side effects. I feel just like I did before the cycle. I'm using liquid Torem which tastes terrible btw. I have lost a couple pounds so far.
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    Pct has been over for about two weeks now. My libido is back full swing and the boys are their normal size. I'm back down to 210lbs from my cycle high of 217-218. I started at 204. I'm happy with the results because I kept the majority of my strength. Will probably run another cycle this winter.
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    Any ideas why you lost weight during pct. I'm 2.5 or so weeks in and up 10 lbs. already I think I'm going to run 6 weeks total if gains keep going last week ramp up to 40mg. PCT for me will be whey protein, creatine mono, daa @ 3 grams day, erase starting 3rd week and nolva 20/20/10/10. Preworkout will be Hemo Rage with 1,3dymethalanine.
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    Probably glycogen and water weight... and my diet has been very sloppy due to work and a new baby (no time). I rarely hear of anyone keeping all their weight.. although I'm sure its possible if diet and training are on point.
  

  
 

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