First PH Cycle! HAVOC

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  1. So my liver had quite the workout today in celebration of the 4th, but after today I promised myself that I will not drink anymore on cycle.

    Tomorrow marks the end of my first week on cycle and I've already been getting complements left and right. My lethargy has been pretty bad and I experienced my first calf pumps today and they are pretty sh*tty. Anyways I can't wait to get back in the gym... Considering doing 2 a days and ignoring the overtraining hype. I'll see how it goes for a week.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    I ran an epi cycle and logged it.
    I'd say that a week at 20 is a waste, too low. I'd start at 30.
    Also 4 weeks is too short. You won't see anything or barely anything until 2-3 weeks from starting
    I'm running it for 31 days so that's about 4.5 weeks. 20 for the first 3 days then after that I'll up it to 30 for the entire cycle. What do you guys think about taking creatine mono while on the cycle? I'm not taking it by itself but my protein contains 3 grams of creatine per serving and I really don't want to spend any more money on regular whey. I'll probably drink a shake in the morning, in between meals, post workout. Thoughts? Also with epi take it first think the morning with breakfast? I heard it works with fat so I'll take it with eggs and then later in the after noon with fish oil preworkout.

    And OP how many grams of taurine are you taking? I'd up your dose if you are getting pumps already. Usually they don't happen until a few weeks into the cycle like week 3.
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  3. I think the creatine will be fine, it should not interfere with anything other than a little bit of water retention if anything. Otherwise I think your dosing is fine. I usually take 1-2 grams of taurine a day because I haven't experienced any sort of back pumps yet. I plan on upping my dosage according to how severe they get.

    Anyways, week 1 of my cycle is up and the results are definitely noticeable. I started my cycle at 170 lbs and now I'm up to 176.5. No bloat no fat just muscle. My strength has gone up considerably and the side effects have yet to kick in (hoping they don't). At this rate I have very high hopes for the cycle and we'll see how it goes!

  4. You'll always gain a lot in the first week as your body stores excess glycogen in the muscle. And for every gram of glycogen your muscle stores there's 2.7g of water, mostly intracellular. It should balance out from here on out.

  5. Friends, I am having some anxiety about a side effect that I have been experiencing with havoc. For the past few days, my scalp has been itchy and I was wondering what that could mean. Im really hoping that it's not a sign of hairloss. I am not prone to MPB but because of epis androgenic effects, it could be messing with my DHT levels.

    I've been seeing great results so far and I would hate to end my cycle early. I'm 2 weeks into this cycle, is it okay to continue another 2 weeks on halodrol instead? (Halo is not androgenic)

  6. DZ, a few posts up you "worked out your liver". We all know there is supposed to be no alcohol consumption while on cycle due to adding to liver stress. I wonder if your scalp dryness is due to dehydration? Alcohol consumption can dehydrate. Are you drinking 1 to 1.5 gallons of water a day?

  7. Dehydration is a possibility. I try to drink as much water as I can but I admit I am not very strict with logging my water consumption.

    However, I have read an overwhelming number of posts that suggest that scalp itchiness on epistane is common and almost always due to DHT conversion which leads to hairloss. I am at a crossroad at this point and don't know what to do.

    If I do choose to start PCT, I may just do 2 weeks of clomid 50/25. I have not experienced much in terms of shut down but I feel like a serm is always necessary but I could be wrong

  8. Update:
    So I'm 19 days in and I have definitely made some gains. I am bulking so my diet is in check, I train 5-6 days a week, and I get plenty of rest. I want to ask the veteran Epistane users when they saw the most results because I have high expectations for this product (10-20 lbs).

  9. Awesome to see you stuck with it. I had been following your log because I'm planning on running havoc this fall and the pct/support supps I planned on using we're very similar to yours so I'm very interested to see how the rest of your cycle goes. Just out of curiosity, any reason you chose to use purus labs organ shield during pct instead of just continuing to use CEL cycle assist all the way thru?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by topcop8p8 View Post
    Awesome to see you stuck with it. I had been following your log because I'm planning on running havoc this fall and the pct/support supps I planned on using we're very similar to yours so I'm very interested to see how the rest of your cycle goes. Just out of curiosity, any reason you chose to use purus labs organ shield during pct instead of just continuing to use CEL cycle assist all the way thru?

    I am actually using both cel cycle assist and organ support. The organ support wasn't much money so I threw it in there. I will be continuing both during PCT.
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  11. I finish my run of 30/30/30/30/40 today. My bodyweight went from 204 to 216 while looking a bit leaner. My max bench went from 280 to 315. My deadlift went from 385 to 425 raw and squat from 335 to 365. My sides were never that bad. I will start my PCT with Torem tomorrow. I may run another cycle in the winter as long as I recover well.

  12. Awesome! What week did you see the most gains? Best of luck with PCT.

  13. In week three it was really obvious I had gotten stronger. I felt stronger after the first week but I really started adding weight to the bar towards the end of week two into week three. My bodyweight reached its max at the start of week three, but I think I would be at 220lbs now if I had been able to eat more. I work a lot and don't have much time to eat while on my 12 hour shifts. Whats strange is that a lot of my sides went away went I jumped to 40mg a day and I felt less moody and lethargic. If I do another cycle I will most likely start at 40 ed.

  14. Sub for reading. Good stuff so far

  15. 24 days into my cycle and I must say 40 mg feels great. I've gotten used to the lethargy and the pumps in the gym are insane. My physique looks totally different in the gym and I'm starting to notice an increase in muscle mass and decrease in fat especially in my stomach area. Also, scalp itch was easily taken care of with some Nizoral shampoo (thank god). If things continue to go well I may even bump up to 50 mg towards the end of the cycle to maximize gains.

  16. Sounds good except for pumps and lethargy. I'm doing 4.5 weeks of epistane 20 mg for first 3 days then 30mg for rest. Will 20/20/10/10 nolvadex be enough I read standard is 40/40/20/20 and my bottle is only 30ml and 20mg per/ml.

  17. Weirdest thing happened today. As I was lifting I felt a tearing sensation on my upper back and as I looked in the mirror I noticed stretch marks literally forming. Hopefully it's a good thing

  18. Quote Originally Posted by dz1553 View Post
    Weirdest thing happened today. As I was lifting I felt a tearing sensation on my upper back and as I looked in the mirror I noticed stretch marks literally forming. Hopefully it's a good thing
    Feeling any sort of tearing can never be a good thing
    Always willing to learn :D

  19. Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    Sounds good except for pumps and lethargy. I'm doing 4.5 weeks of epistane 20 mg for first 3 days then 30mg for rest. Will 20/20/10/10 nolvadex be enough I read standard is 40/40/20/20 and my bottle is only 30ml and 20mg per/ml.
    20/20/10/10 is good
    Why not zoidberg?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by BigRigg View Post
    Feeling any sort of tearing can never be a good thing
    Rapid growth so skin is stretching maybe? Lol still would weird me out
    Why not zoidberg?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    20/20/10/10 is good
    Yes thanks! I didn't' want to hijack this thread or make a new one. I have bad eyesight too so lower dose will be better as nolva is bad for vision (cause blurry vision among other things) with that so I might also take an eye support supplement during pct in place of my multi or along with it.

    Now then back to the thread OP you have cycle assist which has milk thistle some people say that taking that during cycle will decrease the effectiveness of pro hormones. What is your take and how many hours apart do you space out the cycle assist from havoc? I've read 4 hours minimum and also milk thistles half life is 6 hours or so. I'd probably take my cycle support before bed to be safe.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by absurd View Post
    Yes thanks! I didn't' want to hijack this thread or make a new one. I have bad eyesight too so lower dose will be better as nolva is bad for vision (cause blurry vision among other things) with that so I might also take an eye support supplement during pct in place of my multi or along with it.

    Now then back to the thread OP you have cycle assist which has milk thistle some people say that taking that during cycle will decrease the effectiveness of pro hormones. What is your take and how many hours apart do you space out the cycle assist from havoc? I've read 4 hours minimum and also milk thistles half life is 6 hours or so. I'd probably take my cycle support before bed to be safe.
    Lol I take it halfway between my havoc doses. I don't really care if it decreases the effects a little... I like my liver lol. If its really that much of a concern then just get some tuddca
    Why not zoidberg?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    Lol I take it halfway between my havoc doses. I don't really care if it decreases the effects a little... I like my liver lol. If its really that much of a concern then just get some tuddca
    From what I have reserached, and the cost to benefit of Tudca, I would never run a cycle without it.
    NP has their own brand for $23. What?!?!

  24. Quote Originally Posted by drewsicle3210 View Post

    From what I have reserached, and the cost to benefit of Tudca, I would never run a cycle without it.
    NP has their own brand for $23. What?!?!
    TUDCA is the way to go. Far superior to regular milk thistle. TUDCA removes the bile from your liver which causes liver stress.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    TUDCA is the way to go. Far superior to regular milk thistle. TUDCA removes the bile from your liver which causes liver stress.
    Would there be any benefit to running both? Say AI Cycle Support and Tudca?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by drewsicle3210 View Post

    Would there be any benefit to running both? Say AI Cycle Support and Tudca?
    You could if you wanted to. It is overkill. The toxicity of orals is very much overrated. Id always run a liver support and TUDCA is the best so I'd just stick with that personally. And for $23 it's cheaper than most on cycle supports.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post

    You could if you wanted to. It is overkill. The toxicity of orals is very much overrated. Id always run a liver support and TUDCA is the best so I'd just stick with that personally. And for $23 it's cheaper than most on cycle supports.
    ^^^this!

    And for the guy who loved it at 40mg I ran EPI like this.

    40/40/40/60/60/60

    EPI from what I've seen is usually ran way too low. Everybody is different for sure. Glad toy guys enjoyed your runs with it!!
    Independent

  28. Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    ^^^this!

    And for the guy who loved it at 40mg I ran EPI like this.

    40/40/40/60/60/60

    EPI from what I've seen is usually ran way too low. Everybody is different for sure. Glad toy guys enjoyed your runs with it!!
    What was the difference between 40 and 60?
    Sides?

  29. No difference in sides, major strength increase. I would get a pump just lifting a case of oil at work lol. Didn't get that at 40. Granted most say you don't fully notice it till week three but I felt it around day 12. Back pumps on deads and squats were my only real side. Did forget my cissus towards the end and noticed a bit of joint issues but nothing horrible.

    Again everyone is different. I'm also on TRT so I had a test base and no need for PCT.
    Independent

  30. Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    No difference in sides, major strength increase. I would get a pump just lifting a case of oil at work lol. Didn't get that at 40. Granted most say you don't fully notice it till week three but I felt it around day 12. Back pumps on deads and squats were my only real side. Did forget my cissus towards the end and noticed a bit of joint issues but nothing horrible.

    Again everyone is different. I'm also on TRT so I had a test base and no need for PCT.
    I am on trt as well. But one thing I don't understand about this no PCT theory. What about estro rebound? I understand you don't need to restart test, but shouldn't there be a serm anyways after the cycle for gyno prevention?
  

  
 

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