Beastdrol into P-Plex log

ninja warrior

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OK SO HERE WE GO,
THIS WILL BE MY FIRST LOG OF A CYCLE SO I'M ANXIOUS TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. I HAVE EVERYTHING IN ORDER SO I'M LOOKING FOR A SOLID 10 LBS OF LEAN MASS GAIN WITH THIS.

I'M 6'0, 208 LBS AND 11.9 % BODYFAT. I'LL SNAP SOME BEFORE PICS WHEN THE WIFE GETS HOME AND WILL TRY TO POST THEM TOMORROW. BUT MY CYCLE WILL GO AS FOLLOWS.
SD- 20/20/20
PP- 00/00/30/40/40/40.

I ACTUALLY ONLY HAVE 1 BOTTLE OF CEL'S P-PLEX SO MY LAST WEEK WILL BE CUT SHORT BY 3 DAYS. I WAS ON THE FENCE WETHER TO GO SD INTO EPISTRONG CAUSE I GOT THE BOGO FROM MR.SUPPS, BUT THIS SEEMS BETTER FOR BULKING AS THE FAMOUS " UNREAL MACHINE" RECOMMENDED. SO I'LL SAVE THAT FOR NEXT YEAR I GUESS AND WILL GET ANOTHER BOTTLE OF THE BEAST CAUSE IT'S ALL ANYONE IS TALKING ABOUT.

I START ON MONDAY AND PLAN ON EATING ANY AND EVERYTHING IN SIGHT. MY APPETITE IS UNBELIEVEABLE SO I FIGURE GO FOR IT. I'M NOT TOO CONCERNED ABOUT A LITTLE FAT GAIN, BUT WANT TO MAKE SURE THERES MORE THAN ENOUGH CALORIES AVAILABLE FOR MUSCLE GAIN.

MY WORKOUT WILL BE:
MONDAY-LEGS
TUESDAY- CHEST
WED. A LITTLE CARDIO
THURSDAY- BACK
FRIDAY- SHOULDERS AND A FEW ARM EXERCISES.

AND MON- FRI, I SWIM LAPS EVERY MORNING, BUT GO EASY. IT HELPS ME WITH SORENESS AND FEELS GREAT.

I HAVE IT SET UP TO GO HEAVY FOR 4 SETS AND REPS OF 5 FOR MY STAPLE LIFTS OF SQUATS, BENCH PRESS, DEADLIFT, AND MILITARY PRESS, AND THEN 3 OR 4 MORE ISOLATION TYPE EXCERCISES AFTER THAT OF 4 SETS OF 15-20 REPS EACH. I FEEL LIKE IT'S A PRETTY GOOD SPLIT, BUT IF SOMEONE WANTS TO CHIME IN, I'M ALWAYS OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS.

MY PCT IS CLOMID @ 50/50/50/50, SUSTAIN ALPHA, AND TCF-1.

ON CYCLE I TAKE CEL'S CYCLE ASSIST, AND THEN THE NORMS OF FISH OIL, (BUT I USE MOSTLY FLAXSEED OIL), KARBOLYN, WITH GLUTAMINE AND BCAA POWDER AFTER EVERY WORKOUT AND HAMMER DOWN TONS OF PROTIEN. I TRY TO GET MOST FROM FOOD BUT I TAKE 2 OR 3 SHAKES A DAY AS WELL.

THIS IS MY FIRST TIME WITH SD AND I KNOW IT'S SUPER SUPPRESSIVE, AND I HOPE....WELL MY WIFE HOPES, THE LIBIDO DOESNT TANK, BUT AS I SEE IN MOST LOGS, THERES PLENTY OF NICE LIBIDO CHECKS, AND I TOLD HER THAT IF IT GOES, IT'S ONLY FOR A FEW WEEKS. I'LL MAKE IT UP IN THE PCT I GUESS. FROM WHAT I READ ABOUT CLOMID, AND SUSTAIN ALPHA, I'LL BE GIVING SOME HUUUUGE PEARL NECKLACES. BAAAHAHAHA !!!

ANYWAY, I'LL MAKE SURE TO STAY ON TOP OF THE LOG, AND I PLAN TO FREAKIN GO BALLS TO THE WALL THE WHOLE TIME, SO THIS SHOULD BE GOOD.

1 QUESTION: AM I CRAZY FOR WANTING TO GO NUTS AND TRY THIS?
SD- 20/20/20
PP- 00/00/30/40/50
EPI-00/00/00/30/30/45
 
schwellington

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i dunno im doing this

m14add-120/150/150/150/0/0/0/0
1ad-200/300/300/0/0/0/0/0
pmag-0/0/0/75/100/100/100/100

thats 8 weeks
 

ninja warrior

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WELL MINE WOULD BE 6 WEEKS EITHER WAY, JUST CURIOUS IF THATS TOO MANY METHYLS. I GUESS 6 WEEKS IS 6 WEEKS. HMMM I GUESS I'LL SEE HOW IT GOES AND GO FROM THERE. I'M FREAKIN PUMPED.
 
jbryand101b

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If you want to go 6 weeks. here is what I'd recomend.

weeks 1-3 sd-20mg pp-30mg

weeks 4-6 epi-40mg
 
ZamaMan

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Awesome man I will follow this. Don't do the last cycle option because epi takes too long to Kick in to give you any noticeable changes in 3 weeks so don't waste it.
 
jbryand101b

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only reason you'd use the epi would be to harden up a bit. I wouldn't expect to gain anything past week 5 on sd/pp.
 
jbryand101b

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20mg of sd stacked with 30mg of pp. you are going to blow up. and fast. esp if your eating enough. you wont even need to go past 3 weeks with the sd/pp. just use the last three to harden up with the epi.
 

ninja warrior

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WOW, REALLY SO 20 OF SD AND 30 OF PPLEX ISNT TOO MUCH AT ONCE. I FIGURED I SHOULD BRIDGE THEM SO I WASNT SMOKIN THE LIVER WITH 2 METHYLS AT ONCE, EXCEPT FOR THE ONE WEEK. SO RUN EM BOTH STACKED? I'M PRETTY MUCH DOWN FOR WHATEVER, AS LONG AS IT'S NOT DOWN RIGHT NUTS. YOU THINK THAT WOULD PRODUCE MORE GAINS AS OPPOSED TO THE 6 WEEK BRIDGE?
 
gamer2be08

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WOW, REALLY SO 20 OF SD AND 30 OF PPLEX ISNT TOO MUCH AT ONCE. I FIGURED I SHOULD BRIDGE THEM SO I WASNT SMOKIN THE LIVER WITH 2 METHYLS AT ONCE, EXCEPT FOR THE ONE WEEK. SO RUN EM BOTH STACKED? I'M PRETTY MUCH DOWN FOR WHATEVER, AS LONG AS IT'S NOT DOWN RIGHT NUTS. YOU THINK THAT WOULD PRODUCE MORE GAINS AS OPPOSED TO THE 6 WEEK BRIDGE?
Ya, go with the SD/PP stack and bridge into epi.. You will like :).. It is.. Unreal approved LMAO..
 

ninja warrior

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WELL HE IS THE MAN, HMMMMM THIS COULD BE MORE INTERESTING THAN I THOUGHT.
 

ninja warrior

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Yeah i get that a lot. i just think it looks better. but this works just as well i guess. so i'm thinking i would net more muscle gains over 6 weeks doing the bridge, as opposed to just 3 weeks of the goods, and then 3 weeks of epi to harden up. am i off base?
 
ZamaMan

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IMO week one Of epi won't do anything so you will still risk losing gains from what i see. I'd think
sd 20/20/20
pp 0/0/20/30/30/30

much better IMO
 

jason79

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Awesome man I will follow this. Don't do the last cycle option because epi takes too long to Kick in to give you any noticeable changes in 3 weeks so don't waste it.
I agree with this post. Don't bother with adding three weeks of epi to "harden". For most people, epi will be just beginning to show positive effects after 3 weeks, and that's when you'll be stopping. It's a waste of the epi, and more importantly you'll be placing additional stress on your body for very little additional gain. The SD/phera cycle will be harsh as it is so why further risk your health?

The truth is any water you retain from the phera will leave you during PCT so this will give the "hardening" effect you're seeking.
 
jbryand101b

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what is this "time" you guys are talking about with these immediately active oral methylated steroids?????

I think maybe you are mixing up long acting ester injectable steroids like test e with short lived, immediately active oral steroids.

there is no "time to start working". from the very first dosage, the oral steroid begins working.

it takes time to build muscle. it also takes time for your body to get used to this aquired muscle.

using a milder compound like epistane will give your body a needed break. going more than 3-4 weeks on either sd or phera is just adding extra stress on the body, without any additional gains to be made.

the first 3 weeks with sd/pp would creat a highly anabolic enviroment. using epistane would allow for the body to continue to finish the growth it started, as well as get used to it, w/o putting as much strain on the body as you would from continuing to use sd, or pp for additional time.

but to the op. do w/e you want. go with your original plan if you think it'll work better for you.

it isn't what I would do, but I dont know it all.

what I'd really recomend would be to run sd/pp for 4 weeks and then fura thp ether for another 4 weeks.

one should never expect to continue making gains from strong compounds like superdrol, pheraplex, m1t, ect more than 4 weeks.

maybe weaker, more mild compounds like anavar, oral turinabol, epistane, you can make gains past 4 weeks, but even with these, it will all but stop after 6 weeks.

10-15lbs gained in 6 weeks or 10-15lbs gained in 4 weeks.
 
T50

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Maybe try this?

1-6 Epi 15/15/15/30/30/30
1-3 SD 10/10/10/0/0/0
1-3 Phera 30/30/30/0/0/0

I figure that 15mg of Epi is less toxic than 10mg of Superdrol so being able to run all 3 compounds for the first 3 weeks might be beneficial. It lets Epi "build up" or whatever you want to call it and there might be some syngery between taking all 3 at once even at lower doses. I could be totally off but idk
 

soontobbeast

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what is this "time" you guys are talking about with these immediately active oral methylated steroids?????

I think maybe you are mixing up long acting ester injectable steroids like test e with short lived, immediately active oral steroids.

there is no "time to start working". from the very first dosage, the oral steroid begins working.

it takes time to build muscle. it also takes time for your body to get used to this aquired muscle.

using a milder compound like epistane will give your body a needed break. going more than 3-4 weeks on either sd or phera is just adding extra stress on the body, without any additional gains to be made.

the first 3 weeks with sd/pp would creat a highly anabolic enviroment. using epistane would allow for the body to continue to finish the growth it started, as well as get used to it, w/o putting as much strain on the body as you would from continuing to use sd, or pp for additional time.

but to the op. do w/e you want. go with your original plan if you think it'll work better for you.

it isn't what I would do, but I dont know it all.

what I'd really recomend would be to run sd/pp for 4 weeks and then fura thp ether for another 4 weeks.

one should never expect to continue making gains from strong compounds like superdrol, pheraplex, m1t, ect more than 4 weeks.

maybe weaker, more mild compounds like anavar, oral turinabol, epistane, you can make gains past 4 weeks, but even with these, it will all but stop after 6 weeks.

10-15lbs gained in 6 weeks or 10-15lbs gained in 4 weeks.
this is why pulsing works.
 
Tomahawk88

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this is why pulsing works.
Thats y I loved my Epi pulse.

I will say most of these cycle suggestions r a bit more hardcore than I would go but thats just me. Any of them will make u blow the fack up.

I suggest adding 1 pump of Sustain Alpha to the boys 5 days a week while on cycle. That is if u have the TD. This has seem to help my libido while on the libido killer known as tren.
 

soontobbeast

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Thats y I loved my Epi pulse.

I will say most of these cycle suggestions r a bit more hardcore than I would go but thats just me. Any of them will make u blow the fack up.

I suggest adding 1 pump of Sustain Alpha to the boys 5 days a week while on cycle. That is if u have the TD. This has seem to help my libido while on the libido killer known as tren.
yeah in october i plan to do a 6-8 week Epi pulse. i can't wait!
 
Tomahawk88

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yeah in october i plan to do a 6-8 week Epi pulse. i can't wait!
U will love it I know I did. I did my pulse around the same time of the year and was glad I lived in GA. Couldnt keep a shirt on me to save my life. Got so close to 200 pounds.
 

jason79

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what is this "time" you guys are talking about with these immediately active oral methylated steroids?????

I think maybe you are mixing up long acting ester injectable steroids like test e with short lived, immediately active oral steroids.

there is no "time to start working". from the very first dosage, the oral steroid begins working.

it takes time to build muscle. it also takes time for your body to get used to this aquired muscle.

using a milder compound like epistane will give your body a needed break. going more than 3-4 weeks on either sd or phera is just adding extra stress on the body, without any additional gains to be made.

the first 3 weeks with sd/pp would creat a highly anabolic enviroment. using epistane would allow for the body to continue to finish the growth it started, as well as get used to it, w/o putting as much strain on the body as you would from continuing to use sd, or pp for additional time.

but to the op. do w/e you want. go with your original plan if you think it'll work better for you.

it isn't what I would do, but I dont know it all.

what I'd really recomend would be to run sd/pp for 4 weeks and then fura thp ether for another 4 weeks.

one should never expect to continue making gains from strong compounds like superdrol, pheraplex, m1t, ect more than 4 weeks.

maybe weaker, more mild compounds like anavar, oral turinabol, epistane, you can make gains past 4 weeks, but even with these, it will all but stop after 6 weeks.

10-15lbs gained in 6 weeks or 10-15lbs gained in 4 weeks.
Yes, I understand the difference between an oral steroid preparation such as epi and an esterified depot injection such as test-e. I know that epi is active soon after ingestion and there is no lag time per say. For that matter a test ester yields active hormone directly after injection as well, just not the entire dose administered.

My point is that it takes time to notice the actual effects of a milder anabolic like epi or hdrol. For many people it can take about 3 weeks or more for the cumulative effects to be noticeable in the mirror or in the gym. That's not to say that it lies dormant until then, just that it takes a while for the effects to build to the desired result.

I also don't think that the OP should use the SD/phera for more than 3 weeks. Actually I don't think he should stack those two steroids in the first place. Just pick one or the other, but if you must stack them don't go over a few weeks. There's also still no great reason to throw in epi for 3 additional weeks. It might or might not make a qualitative difference in that time, but either way it won't be worth the additional stress to your body.
 

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so if three to four weeks nets most muscle gain, would most people recommend i do the sd into epistane bridge, and then do the p-plex into epi early next year? hmmmm damn, now i'm not sure what's best. soo many choices. either way, i'm starting the sd monday and plan to go buck wild in the gym and in the kitchen. 10 lbs here i come wooo hoooooooo !!!!!!
 
gamer2be08

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so if three to four weeks nets most muscle gain, would most people recommend i do the sd into epistane bridge, and then do the p-plex into epi early next year? hmmmm damn, now i'm not sure what's best. soo many choices. either way, i'm starting the sd monday and plan to go buck wild in the gym and in the kitchen. 10 lbs here i come wooo hoooooooo !!!!!!
The epi will solidify the rapid gains.
How is that a hard concept to grasp?
The more time the muscle has to mature, the easier it is to keep.
And who knows, you may respond well to epi and continue to make gains..
It is real hard to keep gains from a 3 week cycle, as there is only so much actual lean mass that can be built in that amount of time.
 

ninja warrior

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i didnt say it was a hard concept to grasp. i'm just listening to everyones opinions and staying open minded. i've run epi before solo with little gains, but pry mostly due to diet, and pry a little light on the dose. i'm not really too concerned about what i decide to do, but am focussing on just training like a madman, and eating like a horse. some people are really against 2 methyls stacked and recomend a bridge, some say go for it. so i'm just listening to all thoughts.
 
gamer2be08

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i didnt say it was a hard concept to grasp. i'm just listening to everyones opinions and staying open minded. i've run epi before solo with little gains, but pry mostly due to diet, and pry a little light on the dose. i'm not really too concerned about what i decide to do, but am focussing on just training like a madman, and eating like a horse. some people are really against 2 methyls stacked and recomend a bridge, some say go for it. so i'm just listening to all thoughts.
Well, if you care about the gains you make from SD/PP, you will bridge into epi..
 

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i know, i figured p-plex being a little better for bulking would help net better gains, but if most gains happen in the first 3 weeks, then i might as well switch to epi, instead of p-plex and save a little stress on the liver. i just wasnt sure if sd and p-plex at the same time, as opposed to bridging, was too much on the liver. i'm getting conflicting reports. but i agree with finishing with epi.
 
gamer2be08

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i know, i figured p-plex being a little better for bulking would help net better gains, but if most gains happen in the first 3 weeks, then i might as well switch to epi, instead of p-plex and save a little stress on the liver. i just wasnt sure if sd and p-plex at the same time, as opposed to bridging, was too much on the liver. i'm getting conflicting reports. but i agree with finishing with epi.
You can stack both at same time. PP is much more androgenic than SD. They would compliment each other..
 
jbryand101b

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how well you are able to tolerate stacking methylated compounds, or even using one methylated compound will vary depending on the person.

most people can get away with stacking or using insane dosages.

others cant. only you can be the judge of what you can handle.
 

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cool, thanks for the advice guys. i really appreciate it. i know you all are very knowledgable and thats why i'm always listening. i'll try to get before pics and measurements and a scan of my bodyfat printout before i start on monday.

thanks again studs !!! i'm freakin pumped. it's crazy how excited you get just before a cycle. muuuahahahaha !!!!!
 

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is it better to take all 20 mgs of sd at the same time, like pre workout, or twice, spaced evenly throughout the day. what about non workout days? same thing?
 
UnrealMachine

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Wow it's not like the cycle was too weak or anything. Ninja you are fishing for people to recommend an increasingly harsh cycle and on this forum if you fish for that you are GOING to get it...

I went through a bunch of PMs with ninja to put that original SD->PP bridge together for a couple reasons 1) based on what he said, he doesn't respond very well to Epi so I took that stuff out of the equation. 2) the cycle is primarily a BULK ok so leaning out, hardening up... NOT important.

You want to bulk, SD and PP are the compounds to use, and a 6 week bridge is plenty of a cycle. Based on how this goes, you can always make changes for next time. You don't have to go crazy trying to do everything in one cycle.

And the cycles that I do are not examples that everybody should follow so gamer be careful with that logic, just because I do something doesn't mean I approve it for everybody else to do. I think one of the main principles I've tried to teach on the forums is that everybody is different and needs to use different compounds at different doses to create successful cycles; for me personally this entails long cycles and very aggressive dosing because my response to most steroids is very sub-par.

Just wanted to clear that up... I think the original layout is fine, and think that Phera-Plex is a good compound to use, and great to use to bridge out of SD. Save the epi-strong for a cycle that's oriented around aesthetics next year. No need to try to do everything in one cycle because there's always another one.

is it better to take all 20 mgs of sd at the same time, like pre workout, or twice, spaced evenly throughout the day. what about non workout days? same thing?
i don't think any way is significantly better or worse. i always try to get some in pre-wo tho.
 

ninja warrior

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cool, thanks again unreal. i'll stick to the original 6 week sd/pp bridge. i just get antsy staring at all these bottles of goodies and start to want to take them all, thinking it will net more results. i start tomorrow !!!! i can't wait to pop them beautiful blue and whites !! lol
 
BarbellBeast

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Exactly what unreal said brah. SD into PP is byfar enough.. Thats what i'm doing although i'm running test as well.

I'll be following along ninja, should be fun, I popped my first dose of SD this morning and i'll take my 2nd dose later with my next meal. I think you should split up the doses, 1 of them pre workout for sure. Like i will take 1 @ 8am-pre workout, 1pm and 5pm.
 

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cool, i was going to split them as well. i workout right after work, so i'll pop one first thing in the am, then my cycle assist at lunch and my second one at 3:00, which is about an hour before i workout. i've always had a pretty easy time adding mass so this should be interesting.
 

jason79

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The epi will solidify the rapid gains.
How is that a hard concept to grasp?
The more time the muscle has to mature, the easier it is to keep.
And who knows, you may respond well to epi and continue to make gains..
It is real hard to keep gains from a 3 week cycle, as there is only so much actual lean mass that can be built in that amount of time.
Everyone talks about solidifying gains but this is broscience tbh. If you decide to use something like M1t, dbol or something else that's known for more rapid gains, you should expect to lose some post cycle regardless of how you try and stall it. Why would bridging into a weaker androgen like epi solidify gains? The weaker androgen won't be able to support the mass that was gained on the powerful steroid either. You'll still end up losing something. If you are afraid of rapid gains being lost post cycle, stay away from steroids like SD, m1t, dbol etc unless you're using them to kickstart a test cycle or something of that nature. Otherwise why not just use something like epi or hdrol in a proper 4-6 week cycle and enjoy more gradual but maintainable gains.

OP, refrain from PH/DS until you figure out what you want to accomplish and are more confident in how to go about doing it.
 

ninja warrior

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jason,
this will be my 8th ph cycle over the years. i've just never used sd before, so thats where all my questions arise from. i hear it's super toxic and very suppressive. my best friend was one of the few who got gyno from this compund and ended up having to have a double masectomy. so i've never had any prolems with anything, including m1t, which was my fav, but it's not like i'm clueless. i want to get big as hell, and don't mind going a little more extreme, as long as it's not nuts. how else would you get good advice other than asking on a forum. i plan on doing my originally posted cycle and we'll see what happens.
 

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jason,
this will be my 8th ph cycle over the years. i've just never used sd before, so thats where all my questions arise from. i hear it's super toxic and very suppressive. my best friend was one of the few who got gyno from this compund and ended up having to have a double masectomy. so i've never had any prolems with anything, including m1t, which was my fav, but it's not like i'm clueless. i want to get big as hell, and don't mind going a little more extreme, as long as it's not nuts. how else would you get good advice other than asking on a forum. i plan on doing my originally posted cycle and we'll see what happens.
Cool. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
jbryand101b

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using a non aromatizing compound doesn't cause any actualy hardening of the muscles tissue, or make it more solid. solidify, and harden up are just terms used.

it is not bro science to use a drier, non aromatizing compound to reduce amount of water retention aquired from a more wet compound.

and it also is not bro science to allow your body time to adjust to the weight. any amount of anabolic/anti catabolic substance will be enough to preven catabolism, and loss of muscle.

training, rest, and nutrition will depend if you are able to hold on to the newly aquired muscle tissue made on cycle.

using even something like epistane, or even furazabol thp ether post superdrol, pheraplex, or w/e highly anabolic/androgenic compound does make sense.

even if you just an 250mg of test for 8 weeks, with the first 3 used with 30mg of superdrol. this would be better than just 3 weeks of superdrol.

and epistane is much more anabolic/androgenic than testosterone.

is it as easy on the body as the test? no, of course not. but it is the same concept.

it may not be for everyone, but it works good for me.
 
UnrealMachine

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JB said it all already TY :)

but i will reiterate some:
@jasen79 bridging into a weaker steroid DOES allow you to keep more of the gains and it generally WILL help you maintain what you've already gained, check the logs of SD bridged into Epi for proof. I have heard it straight up from a user who did a straight SD cycle and then a while later did SD bridged into Epi. He said he kept WAY more gains from the bridge cycle. What you are saying is that the weaker steroid in a bridge does absolutely nothing... and that makes absolutely no sense.
 
chocolatemilk

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Everyone talks about solidifying gains but this is broscience tbh. If you decide to use something like M1t, dbol or something else that's known for more rapid gains, you should expect to lose some post cycle regardless of how you try and stall it. Why would bridging into a weaker androgen like epi solidify gains? The weaker androgen won't be able to support the mass that was gained on the powerful steroid either. You'll still end up losing something. If you are afraid of rapid gains being lost post cycle, stay away from steroids like SD, m1t, dbol etc unless you're using them to kickstart a test cycle or something of that nature. Otherwise why not just use something like epi or hdrol in a proper 4-6 week cycle and enjoy more gradual but maintainable gains.

OP, refrain from PH/DS until you figure out what you want to accomplish and are more confident in how to go about doing it.
What you call broscience is what I call experience upon experience of the masses. Yes, there is no scientist studying Superdrol and Epistane cycle bridges to find effective cycles. But majority of steroid users agree to end with dry steroids or cutters like winstrol and epistane.

Case and point... Me. Check the link in my sig.

I ran SD for 4 weeks 20 mg's followed by Epistane for 3 weeks 60 mg's.

During my time on Epistane, I did not lose any weight, I actually gained weight (albeit it was not too much weight). My strength also kept rising.

The pictures are at the end of the cycle so I'm pretty sure Epi did an amazing job after Superdrol.

I'm about 27 days into PCT, and I'm at +15. I gained +19 at the peak during the cycle. This means I lost 4 pounds overall in PCT.

Bridging into a cutter steroid is a way too offset the rapid weight loss from SD, m1t, and Dbol. This allows you to slowly shed water weight, while still building muscles through stronger anabolics than the naturally body can produce. Thus, once you enter PCT, you don't experience a rapid weight loss... because you already had a slow water weight loss while using the dry steroid. This was an AWESOME transition into PCT. You sound like you know how bad it sucks to drop water weight fast in PCT.

I would be at +8 or +10 right now had I not bridged into Epistane, yet I am at +15. This is the experience of many people, and me. Broscience yes, but trust me, sometimes broscience is more valuable in the steroid world than you would think. It's all we have most of the time.
 

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JB said it all already TY :)

but i will reiterate some:
@jasen79 bridging into a weaker steroid DOES allow you to keep more of the gains and it generally WILL help you maintain what you've already gained, check the logs of SD bridged into Epi for proof. I have heard it straight up from a user who did a straight SD cycle and then a while later did SD bridged into Epi. He said he kept WAY more gains from the bridge cycle. What you are saying is that the weaker steroid in a bridge does absolutely nothing... and that makes absolutely no sense.
Unreal, JB and chocmilk, I agree that what you guys are saying makes some sense intuitively. Actually IMO, the statement that made the most sense was the one that choco made about the bridge mostly functioning to allow for more gradual water/mass loss, thus smoothing the transition into PCT. OK, fine, I'll grant you that there is a psychological benefit to doing this. In my posts I also never said it would be 100% useless to bridge into epi. What I have been saying is that it's not worth the extra risk to your health after an already harsh cycle to run another 17a methyl for 3 additional weeks to "harden" or "solidify" gains (yes jb, I know these are just terms that are erroneously used....lol). When I first posted my opposition in this thread, the guy wanted to run a SD/phera stack and bridge into epi. I'm sorry but telling someone to do this isn't cool guys. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've lurked here for a while and have enjoyed reading many of Unreal, Choc and jb's posts, so it's not like I have a proverbial ax to grind. I just think that encouraging someone to run SD/phera and then follow up with epi to "solidify" the muscle is irresponsible. These guys will listen to whatever you tell them and the fact is that's an unecessarily risky cycle.

For the sake of argument I'll agree with you guys and concede that running epi for a few weeks might delay weight loss after ceasing the SD and or madol. All this is doing is delaying the inevitable. The fact of life is, typically, you will lose some mass during PCT. You can delay it, try to make it more gradual while further stressing your body for as long as you want, but you will still have to face the music eventually and deal with weight loss. If you can plan a solid PCT, meal and training plan, the weight loss can be minimized. So, it's more important to make sure you're well versed in PCT, diet and have a solid training routine if you want to maximize tha amount of gains you keep post cycle. Also, there might be some muscle memory at play that will allow you to recover some lost mass and strength, but IMO, 3 weeks of epi isn't going to make a huge difference in the end when it's time to run your PCT. It will make recovery more difficult though. Generally, as you guys surely know, the longer you're on cycle, the longer and more difficult it is to recover full functioning of the HPTA. The prolonged recovery could certainly jeapardize your gains. Hcg during a long cycle might help keep the testis more receptive to LH and FSH during PCT, but nobody has mentioned that either.

Oh jb, I'm not trying to single you out here, but epi isn't more anabolic than test in practice. Yes, I know that vida claims it's 91% as androgenic and 1100% as anabolic as methyl test, but this is when it's injected directly into the levator ani of castrated rats. How applicable is that to oral administration in humans in the doses used? Probably not very. Vida is useful but mostly as a purely academic reference, not as a guide to how different anabolics are going to compare in human beings trying to use it for physique or performance enhancing purposes. In practice, a typical epi cycle will not compare to a typical test cycle.
 
UnrealMachine

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I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with a lot of that. The breakdown:

1) You say that bridging to a second compound is only delaying the inevitable. As if you gain 15 pounds and keep 9 pounds on the SD portion, adding the Epi won't change that. But it WILL. As CM said if on the Epi portion you lose a few pounds of water weight and gain a few pounds of muscle, your weight stays the same, however MORE gains have been made.
This is the reason why strength increases during the Epi portion of the bridge. Actual muscle is being made.
The bridge serves this purpose not only of allowing some additional gains to be made, but by extending the duration you enhance your body's ability to keep the gains. And that mechanic is far more influential to your body's ability to retain gains than a couple extra weeks of shutdown.

It should be fairly obvious that if you gain 15 pounds over a 6 week period, it'll be easier to keep than 15 pounds over a 3 week period.

2) The extra shutdown.... NOT that big of a deal. I think I'm somewhere around week 13 of my current cycle... not even concerned about shutdown lol... You do realize that the majority of AAS cycles are probably in the 8-14 week range? Why are you stressing over 6 like you'll be so shutdown that it'll be so much harder to recover that you'll lose teh gains?

Based on everything i've seen, that's just not true.

And funny you mention HCG because CM is probably going to mention it to you now

3) what else... I always stress the importance of diet and training and I don't think any of us is trying to push drugs over diet and training

4) no epi will not compare to a test cycle... Epi is way better, lol... Those numbers are meaningless.

Ok don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be a jackass and I do certainly see where you are coming from but I have a very hard time believing that you have run SD, PP, Epi, Test cycles, bridged cycles, etc. etc. and compared everything and come to those conclusions.

You should read some of the logs on these bridge cycles because if you think the Epi portion of the cycle is doing nothing but delaying the inevitable weightloss you are really, really off-base.
 
SouthernCharm

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im staying out of this one. thanks for your opinions
 
chocolatemilk

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more gradual water/mass loss, thus smoothing the transition into PCT. OK, fine, I'll grant you that there is a psychological benefit to doing this.
Not only psychological, but strength wise, and physique wise. Obviously loss of water weight means a SUDDEN INSTANT drop in strength and a SUDDEN INSTANT shrinking effect on your physique. The less water weight lost suddenly, the better your strength will be and the better you will look. Especially once natural test and estrogen kick back up and allow you once again to pick up some water weight from just training.

Less drop, the better. SD bridge into another cutter steroid = less drop.

In my posts I also never said it would be 100% useless to bridge into epi. What I have been saying is that it's not worth the extra risk to your health after an already harsh cycle to run another 17a methyl for 3 additional weeks to "harden" or "solidify" gains (yes jb, I know these are just terms that are erroneously used....lol). When I first posted my opposition in this thread, the guy wanted to run a SD/phera stack and bridge into epi. I'm sorry but telling someone to do this isn't cool guys.
It's really not that big of a risk for a 6 week cycle assuming you have no pre-existing conditions, have supports, and you monitor your health and know what to look out for. Jaundice creeps up on people... it doesn't SUDDENLY appear lol. If you let yourself get to the point of Jaundice... you're an idiot. Flat out.

I quickly skimmed through this log and didn't know that's what he wanted to do.

I believe others have already pointed out SD/Phera bridged into Epi is a no no. Nobody told him to do that. They said drop the Phera, leave the Epi.

but IMO, 3 weeks of epi isn't going to make a huge difference in the end when it's time to run your PCT.
It made a huge difference for me. A world of difference.

Hcg during a long cycle might help keep the testis more receptive to LH and FSH during PCT, but nobody has mentioned that either.
I used hCG for my SD/Epi bridge. After stopping hCG in PCT, balls atrophied 20% for two days. After two days, completely back to normal. It was amazing. I loved it. I ate like sh*t in PCT cuz I didn't plan for school and my schedule got fukked up. Didn't even have protein powder for 1 week of PCT... yet I'm +15. So hCG combats SD/Epi suppressive nature very nicely and allows quick return of test levels (I didn't get bloods but I FEEL it in my nuts and body that I came back to normal rather quick). But I don't thing it's a BIG concern in the scope of real 12-14-16 week steroid cycles without hCG.

In practice, a typical epi cycle will not compare to a typical test cycle.
Test is really weaksauce in the scope of things. When I started the game, I thought test was the ultimate dark side. The ultimate gains from steroids.... psshhhht. Test is nothing but a base LOL. If you're a newb, test will do ya good, but if you've reached natural limits, test really won't push the envelope. Epi would be even stronger lol. Seriously.

And funny you mention HCG because CM is probably going to mention it to you now
LOL...


In all seriousness this isn't what I call arguing. I like having these discussions with people. Jason, tell us your experience with roids...
 

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Wow, this has turned into quite the debate. my bad, cause i'm sticking to the sd/pp anyway, but on a positive note...Day 1.
BOOYAA !!!! Legs !!
I actually realized today that i need to step up my game. for some reason just the thought of the sd running through my veins made me turn into a freakin animal and go harder than i probably ever have, which has to be mental, so why can't i go that hard on any given day. i took some 1MR and got busy. i do p90x's ab ripper x before my leg day, and back day for some tightening of the core, so that was first. then i started my assault.
Squats-
135 x 10
185 x 10
225 x 5
275 x 5
275 x 5
225 x 10

this was a lot for me because i dont usually do this many sets so i was burning for sure
Leg extensions
10 x 15reps
10 x 15
10 x 15
9 x 20
Leg curl
80 x 15
80 x 12
70 x 15
70 x 18
Calf raises
4 sets to failure

so that was my leg workout today, and although some of you studs look at that and laugh, it felt great for me and i did it with a lot of intensity. i left walking like a boxer who just got the bell rung and is doing the chicken dance, which brings me to a funny question.
what the hell would you do if you had to get in a fight on your way home from the gym after a leg workout. i'd be screwed, cause i literally couldnt walk at all. i'd square off and the guy would be going " what the hell is up with this dudes stance?"

i can't wait to see how much my legs go up in strength, because i havent really been hitting them too hard and they've always been pretty strong. so i'm thinking since these numbers are pretty low, they will shoot up decently high in the next six weeks.
tomorrow is chest day, which is my weakest part. i'll bring the same intensity for sure.

also, i'm eating like a horse who just ate 10 lbs of pot brownies. sometimes i wish i'd never have stopped smokin, cause man, food tasted soooo much better back in the day.
 
UnrealMachine

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lol, no need to stop smokin, just IMO :). Ya sorry about that whole debate : / but to say the least I feel the bridge will treat you well. Good leg workout... yeah I think your numbers will shoot up a lot, lift hard and eat big and I see 3 plates happening on your squats soon.
Oh yeah also drink a ton of water for this cycle
 
BarbellBeast

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Haha, yeah why stop smokin bro? chief that sh1t up!
 

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first off, i drink a little over a gallon a day. is that enough in your opinion, or bump it up. i've always drank that much.

second,
MARY JANE !!! ahhhh my old best friend. i smoked heavily for about 10 years, basically since high school. but i'm the type that gets super red eyes and doesnt want to go anywhere. used to be ok, but now i have 2 kids and the wifes always wanting to go places. soooo. and i mean my eyes get REEEDDDDDD !!! also, our work started giving drug tests, but my sister and brother in law own the business, which although they don't approve of it, i could pry get away with it. especially if i threw the whole appetite helper in. i got them to provide a fully furnished gym onsite with everything you need. it turned out a lot bigger than we were expecting and people are always like WTF??? thats just for employees? but since 99% of people are lazy bums, my brother in law and i are about the only ones who use it. but mmmmmmmm back to those days of lifting like crazy, and then pullin a few rips from the B. damn, i need to quit talkin about it.
 

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I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with a lot of that. The breakdown: Well, at least you don't strongly disagree with my entire rant. :rant:

1) You say that bridging to a second compound is only delaying the inevitable. As if you gain 15 pounds and keep 9 pounds on the SD portion, adding the Epi won't change that. But it WILL. As CM said if on the Epi portion you lose a few pounds of water weight and gain a few pounds of muscle, your weight stays the same, however MORE gains have been made.
This is the reason why strength increases during the Epi portion of the bridge. Actual muscle is being made.
The bridge serves this purpose not only of allowing some additional gains to be made, but by extending the duration you enhance your body's ability to keep the gains. And that mechanic is far more influential to your body's ability to retain gains than a couple extra weeks of shutdown.

It should be fairly obvious that if you gain 15 pounds over a 6 week period, it'll be easier to keep than 15 pounds over a 3 week period.

Maybe but it's not as if there's a whole lot of difference between 3 and 6 weeks. After all it's only a few weeks, as you've pointed out in defense of the safety and HPTA suppression issues I brought up. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point Unreal. I respect your point of view and I'm sure you have good reason to validate this claim in your mind. IME, this just hasn't really worked the way you're claiming it does, but hey we're all different too, so who knows.

2) The extra shutdown.... NOT that big of a deal. I think I'm somewhere around week 13 of my current cycle... not even concerned about shutdown lol... You do realize that the majority of AAS cycles are probably in the 8-14 week range? Why are you stressing over 6 like you'll be so shutdown that it'll be so much harder to recover that you'll lose teh gains?

Many people try and limit their cycles to 6-12 weeks. With the longer cycles people can have a tough time recovering. Again this tends to be subjective as so much does in the world of AAS. Some people can always recover just fine and some struggle. The specific steroid(s) used also plays a role. In regard to the OP, I'll give you this one. The extra 3 weeks of epi probably won't matter unless he's very susceptible to HPTA suppression, in which case he might be a candidate for TRT eventually anyway.

Based on everything i've seen, that's just not true.

And funny you mention HCG because CM is probably going to mention it to you now

As you saw, he did ;-)

3) what else... I always stress the importance of diet and training and I don't think any of us is trying to push drugs over diet and training

Fair point, you give good advice tbh.

4) no epi will not compare to a test cycle... Epi is way better, lol... Those numbers are meaningless.

The numbers I spoke of actually favor the anabolic potency of epi over test. My point was exactly yours, that those numbers don't really matter. Epi is good stuff though. It'll definately make you strong and sleek looking.

Ok don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be a jackass and I do certainly see where you are coming from but I have a very hard time believing that you have run SD, PP, Epi, Test cycles, bridged cycles, etc. etc. and compared everything and come to those conclusions.

I don't think you're being a jackass. I think your rebuttals are fair and reasonable. I enjoy having discussions about these topics and if I thought you or others were just being an ass I wouldn't bother responding or even coming here.

To answer your question, no, of course I haven't run all of these possible bridges, stacks and possible combinations. Nobody can really know it all, but I don't just base my opinions on a whim either. As I said earlier though these things can be subjective depending on the user, their goals, approach, and many other factors.


You should read some of the logs on these bridge cycles because if you think the Epi portion of the cycle is doing nothing but delaying the inevitable weightloss you are really, really off-base.
My answers to your points are above in bold. To answer your last point, that might work for some people. I still just find it hard to believe that a few weeks of epi will help make the cycle. Why even use epi then, especially since, as you stated above, the OP said he doesn't even respond well to it. Why not just lower the dose of the SD for a couple of extra weeks. It could be something like 20,20,20,10,10. Or you could even just dose it lower like: 10mg for 6 weeks. Why is it necessary to switch to a different steroid if the main goal here seems to be extending the cycle to help the body adjust to newly acquired lean gains? Many people have reported good, albeit slower gains on low dosed SD, and it seems to be better tolerated as well.

As for the logs that you are referencing: how do you know that those members wouldn't have maintained their gains even without the epi (or milder anabolic of choice)? As you probably know, steroids work by upregulating genes that encode various proteins that are important for establishing an anabolic state in skeletal muscle. After ceasing the drug, these pathways can stay active for some time, so the anabolic effects don't necessarily stop right when the drug is discontinued (even with orals). This might also explain the phenomena often reported in these forums where a person continues to experience dramatic strength gains during the beginning of and even well into PCT. Just some fodder for thought. Anyway, I appreciate your responses and I'll look into this (bridging with a mild anabolic to solidify gains) with a more open mind going forward, but I'm not really completely sold on it yet.
 

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