NADH-“THE” Performance Enhancing Supplement?

BigGunn

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I know it is "sales-ey" and quite "propaganda-ish", but if you can stomach that, the article is an excellent explanation of the benefits of NADH on athletic performance. NADH is just one component of our supplements, but we feel it is a strong differentiator when comparing our GH booster and intra-workout drink to other products.

BigGunn


nadh tweet2.png


One of the key components in both Cabergolean and ERGO-BLITZ is NADH or beta-nicotinamide adeninedinucleotide
. NADH is a coenzyme, which simply means it helps other enzymes carry out certain biological functions. It is considered by many researchers and scientists to be the most important coenzyme in humans and one of the most critical molecules in the human body.

Here are just some of the conditions that clinicians might utilize NADH to treat:

· Chronic fatigue syndrome

· Fibromyalgia

· Parkinson’s disease

· Alzheimer’s disease

· Depression

· Jet lag

· Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)

NADH was discovered roughly 100 years ago; however, it has not been until this century that we have fully come to understand NADH's impact at the cellular level. Although there are numerous ways that NADH supplementation can improve function in humans- we will primarily highlight its effects on cognitive ability and athletic performance.

NADH and Cognitive Ability (Athletic “Smarts”)

It is this bloggers opinion that cognitive function and athletic performance’s relationship is extremely underestimated. Often times you hear about the best athletes in the world having “smarts”. Football smarts or basketball smarts- etc. The ability of a Brian Urlacher to be able to scan an offensive formation at pre-snap and make a change for his defense is paramount to the teams success on the field- and the difference between a “good” defense and a “great” defense. The ability for a Brian Urlacher to be able to key in on the movement of linemen and backs on the offensive side of the ball and make a split second educated guess as to where the play is headed is the difference between a “good” linebacker and a “great” one. Troy Polamalu is heralded as one of the best defenders in the game. It is not his athletic ability that usually inspires this accolade (although he is a great athelete!)- it is his cognitive function that separates him from the rest of the NFL safeties. He has football “smarts”.

One third of all the energy we produce in our body is used up by our brain. An energy deficiency is first realized in the brain with symptoms such as lack of concentration and alertness, or mental fog.

How does NADH provide the brain with more energy you ask?

The energy within our bodies is produced when hydrogen and oxygen react to form water and energy. NADH is the biological form of hydrogen present in our cells and oxygen comes from the air we breathe. The energy produced from this reaction is stored as a chemical compound, ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

You would certainly agree that if you had a deficiency in oxygen that oxygen supplementation would be mission critical right!? Well NADH is the other side of that equation: No oxygen- no ATP. No hydrogen- no ATP. No ATP- no energy. Pretty simple right!

NADH also affects general cognitive function by stimulating the production of adrenaline and dopamine, both of which are essential for our cognitive performance and memory. NADH has been clinically proven to improve cognitive function in sleep deprived adults (Virre, 48th International Congress of Aviation and Space Medicine, 2000). And unlike waking up to a big cup of coffee and then feeling like Monday morning’s garbage before noon again- NADH carries out its effects on cognitive function in a much different capacity than caffeine or other stimulants do.

Caffeine and the other stimulants release adrenaline (also called epinephrine) from the nerve cells. This triggers a quick boost in adrenaline. You are less tired and more alert; however, only for a very short time. The next cup of coffee will not give you the same boost as the first one because your adrenaline pool in the nerve cells has been emptied. If the pool of adrenaline in your central nervous system is totally depleted, you can drink as much coffee as you want but you will not get any more boost.

NADH on the other hand stimulates the biosynthesis of adrenaline, and due to this, fills the pool of adrenaline in the central nervous system. This is the essential prerequisite for caffeine to become active.

In addition, NADH increases the real ATP energy in the cells. With more energy the nerve cells produce not only more adrenaline and dopamine but also serotonin and other components necessary for good performance. NADH is the only substance which has been shown to increase cellular energy. Coffee and “energy supplements” do not increase cellular energy, in fact they do nothing but release adrenaline from nerve cells and are therefore mere stimulants.

NADH and Athletic Performance

Researchers are just beginning to look at NADH's possible applications for athletic performance. Theoretically, physiologic functions boosted by NADH could have beneficial effects for athletes. Research conducted by Birkmayer and colleagues (Birkmayer, International Journal of Sports Medicine 1996) on competitive athletes does indicate that NADH enhances work capacity. Researchers measured reaction times, physical performance and performance quality in 17 competitive cyclists and long-distance runners. Physical performance was measured on a bicycle ergometer. Performance quality was determined by measurements of continuous attention.

Athletes underwent these tests both before and after taking 5 mg of NADH before breakfast each morning for four weeks. During the test period, subjects kept constant the frequency and intensity of their training and exercise program as well as lifestyle factors. After four weeks of NADH supplementation, most athletes experienced significantly less scattering of reaction times-it dropped by 10 percent in five athletes, 10 to 20 percent in eight athletes, and more than 20 percent in three athletes. Reaction time overall improved considerably in 16 out of the 17 subjects.

Compared to baseline measurements, parameters for physical performance also improved. For two athletes, the maximum work performance (work at max per kg/body weight) increased by more than 10 percent, with another seven showing increases of up to 10 percent. Similar improvements were made in maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max/kg).


Researchers hypothesized that improved reaction times may have resulted from prior NADH deficiency in some athletes or an increase in dopamine production that led to increased alertness and vigilance. The latter explanation is further supported by studies wherein NADH supplementation increased dopamine production in rats. The researchers went on to say that stimulation of cellular ATP production by NADH may have enhanced, athletic performance- more NADH a cell has available, the more energy it can produce. Conversely, an NADH deficiency results in reduced strength, power and performance. The report concluded, "From the changes observed after taking NADH for four weeks, it seems justified to perform a double-blind, placebo-controlled study with a larger number of athletes."

In collaboration with the University in Brno (Czechia), a study was conducted among competitive-level cyclists. They took 10 mg of NADH per day, and performance-specific parameters—vital capacity, oxygen uptake, lactate levels in blood, and reaction time—were measured before and after one month of NADH intake. It was found that oxygen uptake was faster and greater, lactate levels fell, and the reaction time was significantly shorter than at the beginning of the study.

A further study was performed by Dr. Bill Misner, the coach of some top U.S. athletes. He gave them NADH in a dose of 10 mg per day for sixty days. All athletes improved in their sprint performance (cycling for 5 minutes or running 1 mile), and in duration performance all the athletes also showed better values. To confirm these preliminary findings, a study was conducted by the department of sports medicine at the University of Freiburg, in Germany. The study was a double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study organized in the following way. One group of highly conditioned athletes took NADH (3 tablets, 10 mg each, per day) for four weeks. This was followed by a six-week washout period. After this resting phase, the athletes received placebo tablets for four weeks. The second group started with placebo tablets for the first four weeks, and then continued with the NADH tablets for four weeks after the six-week washout period. The following parameters were investigated: maximum aerobic capacity, oxygen uptake, carbon dioxide exhalation, lactate levels in blood, and catecholamine levels in blood. Tests were performed at the beginning and at the end of each treatment period.

After NADH supplementation, the following
effects were observed:

• In the metabolic energetic area, oxygen consumption was reduced and there was an increase in the respiratory coefficient.

• The exhalation of carbon dioxide was diminished as was the lactate level. The lactate-lowering effect of NADH has enormous practical consequences for athletes. By taking NADH regularly, they could theoretically exercise much longer under aerobic conditions in the muscles, leading to a higher endurance and performance.


• In the metabolic-regulative domain, a reduction of potassium level was observed. This could be explained by the higher demand through the defined exercise work.

• The plasma concentration of creatine was also lower with NADH. During endurance exercise, activity of the enzyme creatine kinase (CK) is higher than in the resting state. This increase is caused by leaky muscle tissue damaged by excessive use of the muscles during training. Under NADH treatment, the elevation of CK activity is much smaller than without NADH. This may be indirect evidence for the protective effect of NADH against cell damage.

• Among indicators for systemic stress, a decline of the “stress” hormones noradrenaline and adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) was seen.

The reduction of the time for oxygen uptake by cells after NADH indicates an improved utilization of oxygen, which points to a higher availability of NADH and, due to this, a greater ATP level in the cells. The increase of ATP in the cells was about 7 percent on average. In conjunction with the lower lactate levels, this means that the athletes can exercise for a longer period of time in the aerobic phase. This leads to better endurance and performance, particularly for marathon runners.

Researchers at the University of Jyvaskyla, in Finland, also examined the efficacy of NADH in improving physical performance in a placebo-controlled study. The results confirmed the findings of the University of Freiburg study. The lactate level in the blood, measured after a aerobic running test, was significantly lower after intake of NADH than after placebo. Also, the jumping force was higher and the reaction times were faster after taking NADH.

In the research department of the Birkmayer Institute, a blood test was developed by which researchers can examine the energizing effect of NADH. NADH is added to a drop of blood in a test tube, and the blood cells take up the NADH immediately. Depending on the ATP pool present in these blood cells, they metabolize a lot of or little amounts of NADH. If the blood cells contain high amounts of ATP, then little NADH is metabolized and converted to ATP by the blood cells. If the ATP reserve of the cells is low, then a lot of NADH is metabolized and used for ATP production. Marathon runners before a race have a high ATP energy level, so their blood cells consume very little NADH for ATP production. After the race, the athletes have a very low energy level, and the blood test performed after the race shows a strongly increased consumption of NADH. Using this blood test, we examined the effect of NADH on the energy level of marathon runners. Athletes taking 30 mg NADH per day for four weeks showed a significantly lower consumption of NADH, corresponding to a higher ATP energy level than the athletes taking placebo. This effect was observed in all phases of the race (in the morning, after warm-ups, after the race, and then 24 hours after the race).

NADH increases L-Dopa production

NADH triggers the activation of tyrosine-hydroxylase. Tyrosine hydroxylase or tyrosine 3-monooxygenase is the enzyme responsible for catalyzing the conversion of the amino acid L-Tyrosine (an ingredient in Cabergolean) to L-Dopa. L-Dopa has been shown in numerous studies to be an effective compound for the stimulation of GH release by the pituitary gland. Growth Hormone has been shown in numerous studies to (among other functions) stimulate IGF production, which in turn creates new muscle cells through differentiation and proliferation. This white paper is not a treatise on the benefits of GH; however, there are scores of studies that illuminate its positive effect on athletic performance.

caber data pic 3.jpg


NADH Increases Nitric Oxide (NO) bioavailability.

Research was conducted at the University of Ohio lead by Dr. Malinski (the first man to discover how to measure the cellular output of nitric oxide) and his team found that NADH can increase NO in the cells in a dose-dependent manner. As a matter of fact Dr. Tadeusz Malinski states that NADH stimulates NO production 10 x more than any substance he has ever tested! As an aside, if you are taking a “NO Supplement” and it does not include NADH, you are throwing away your money!!!

But I digress. So how does NADH increase the bioavailabilty of Nitric Oxide?

The Coenzyme of the enzyme NO-Synthase is NAHD. The more NADH available, the more NO can be produced. NO mediates vasodilation (an expansion of the internal diameter of blood vessels), which in turn leads to increased blood flow, oxygen transport, delivery of nutrients to skeletal muscle and a reduction in blood pressure.

Athletes know that Nitric Oxide is a valuable part of their success because it’s responsible for blood flow, oxygen delivery, glucose uptake, muscle velocity, power output, and muscle growth.

Increasing Nitric Oxide levels can deliver continuous muscle benefits such as:

· Faster gains in lean mass

· Greater strength

· Providing better muscle recovery

· Increasing endurance

So where can you find supplements that improve athletic performance and cognitive abilty that include NADH? Well you need to look no further than Cabergolean and ERGO-BLITZ.

Cabergolean and ERGO-BLITZ both utilize NADH to increase GH production, NO production and enhance cognitive ability.

Here is an interesting video on the benefits on NADH that we thought you would enjoy:

[video=youtube_share;JN-yhGrkvYA]http://youtu.be/JN-yhGrkvYA[/video]
 
baldwanus

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im sorry, but shouldnt this be in the company promo section?

because you're obviously pimping specific products here.
 
Aleksandar37

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I'm also sorry, but your science "facts" are a bit off... I don't even have the time to tackle them all, but 1! Malinski was the first to show NO in situ in an endothelial cells...NO was detected way before his time. Also, there is this: The Nobel Assembly at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, has awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for 1998 to Robert F Furchgott, Louis J Ignarro and Ferid Murad for their discoveries concerning "the nitric oxide as a signalling molecule in the cardiovascular system". Get one of them to give a quote and you'll have my attention. And 2!!! A physician would not give NADH for any of those conditions/diseases, especially not Parkinson's or Alzheimer's...it doesn't even make sense to give it to an Alzheimer's patient!!! I understand the Parkinson's mention, but you can not synthesize dopamine if the cell bodies in the nigra are dead. And 3!!! "As a matter of fact Dr. Tadeusz Malinski states that NADH stimulates NO production 10 x more than any substance he has ever tested!" I'm calling bull**** on this. Can you please provide a reference for this? NADH is not even needed for in vivo production of NO from eNOS. NADPH yes; NADH no. My head hurts >.<...
 
fightbackhxc

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Interesting, would like to hear more about NADH
 
DAdams91982

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I'm also sorry, but your science "facts" are a bit off... I don't even have the time to tackle them all, but 1! Malinski was the first to show NO in situ in an endothelial cells...NO was detected way before his time. Also, there is this: The Nobel Assembly at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, has awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for 1998 to Robert F Furchgott, Louis J Ignarro and Ferid Murad for their discoveries concerning "the nitric oxide as a signalling molecule in the cardiovascular system". Get one of them to give a quote and you'll have my attention. And 2!!! A physician would not give NADH for any of those conditions/diseases, especially not Parkinson's or Alzheimer's...it doesn't even make sense to give it to an Alzheimer's patient!!! I understand the Parkinson's mention, but you can not synthesize dopamine if the cell bodies in the nigra are dead. And 3!!! "As a matter of fact Dr. Tadeusz Malinski states that NADH stimulates NO production 10 x more than any substance he has ever tested!" I'm calling bull**** on this. Can you please provide a reference for this? NADH is not even needed for in vivo production of NO from eNOS. NADPH yes; NADH no. My head hurts >.<...
Damn
 
MidwestBeast

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In for info
 
BigGunn

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I'm also sorry, but your science "facts" are a bit off... I don't even have the time to tackle them all, but 1! Malinski was the first to show NO in situ in an endothelial cells...NO was detected way before his time. Also, there is this: The Nobel Assembly at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, has awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for 1998 to Robert F Furchgott, Louis J Ignarro and Ferid Murad for their discoveries concerning "the nitric oxide as a signalling molecule in the cardiovascular system". Get one of them to give a quote and you'll have my attention. And 2!!! A physician would not give NADH for any of those conditions/diseases, especially not Parkinson's or Alzheimer's...it doesn't even make sense to give it to an Alzheimer's patient!!! I understand the Parkinson's mention, but you can not synthesize dopamine if the cell bodies in the nigra are dead. And 3!!! "As a matter of fact Dr. Tadeusz Malinski states that NADH stimulates NO production 10 x more than any substance he has ever tested!" I'm calling bull**** on this. Can you please provide a reference for this? NADH is not even needed for in vivo production of NO from eNOS. NADPH yes; NADH no. My head hurts >.<...
The reference was a measurement of NO, not the discovery of coenzyme 1.

Who is talking about giving NADH to patients with Parkinson's and Alzheimers? Not I in THIS article?

The focus in on the conversion of Arginine to NO and tyrosine to L-dopa. And the production of ATP as a result of NADH supplementation.

As an athlete this has my interest!
 

ssbackwards

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i know NADH degrades rapidly, and is best preserved in the fridge, not sure if you guys knew that. But i hope you put a good enough dose in there to deal with the degredation.
 
BigGunn

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BigGunn

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i know NADH degrades rapidly, and is best preserved in the fridge, not sure if you guys knew that. But i hope you put a good enough dose in there to deal with the degredation.
This was the case several years ago-
 

ssbackwards

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how is it different now? you pay for a certain amount, dont you want to get that amount in what your buying. especially if its degrading>?

how did you fix this issue.

products with NADH should be kept in fridge.
 
BigGunn

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how is it different now? you pay for a certain amount, dont you want to get that amount in what your buying. especially if its degrading>?

how did you fix this issue.

products with NADH should be kept in fridge.
I am traveling right now, but when I am at a computer I will explain and provide the research.
 
BigGunn

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Probably- my apologies.

im sorry, but shouldnt this be in the company promo section?

because you're obviously pimping specific products here.
 
fightbackhxc

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im sorry, but shouldnt this be in the company promo section?

because you're obviously pimping specific products here.
Lol plenty of other threads very similar to this in the supplement section with very similar agendas. I don't think his is really any different.
 
BigGunn

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NADH is not even needed for in vivo production of NO from eNOS. NADPH yes; NADH no. My head hurts >.<...
1. Your head may hurt because you are so much smarter than I am. My apologies!

2. NAD(P)H:quinone oxidoreductase > increases the cellular NADH > increases Akt/AMP-activated protein kinase/eNOS activation
 
JudoJosh

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I'm for Aleks thoughts
 
Aleksandar37

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The reference was a measurement of NO, not the discovery of coenzyme 1.

Who is talking about giving NADH to patients with Parkinson's and Alzheimers? Not I in THIS article?

The focus in on the conversion of Arginine to NO and tyrosine to L-dopa. And the production of ATP as a result of NADH supplementation.

As an athlete this has my interest!
By reference I meant I want to see the actual paper where Malinski showed or said this.

And who is talking about Parkinson's and Alzheimer's?...actually that was you lol. I don't mean to pick on ya, but if somebody is going to come in here and post their supplement with misleading info, I'm going to jump on it. It's not the first time:p

NADH is neither new nor a wonder supplement.

As a scientist this has my interest!
 
fightbackhxc

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FunnyScientistHoldingATestTube.jpg
 
BigGunn

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Oh yeah- I guess the treatment of alzheimers and parkinsons is mentioned in this article in the intro bullets-sorry. But not my focus at all- so I won't discuss in detail, but there is a lot of research to suggest NADH is a potentially effective adjunct to traditional parkinsons/ alzheimers therapy. But I'll worry about that in a few years from now.....

I understand and appreciate your vigilance. NADH is just a component of our supplements- we do not market NADH as a stand-alone supplement.

And at the end of the day, when the people speak on AM.com who have used the product, the truth will come out, and if we are selling snake-oil it will come to light. In the interim your vigilance is appreciated.


By reference I meant I want to see the actual paper where Malinski showed or said this.

And who is talking about Parkinson's and Alzheimer's?...actually that was you lol. I don't mean to pick on ya, but if somebody is going to come in here and post their supplement with misleading info, I'm going to jump on it. It's not the first time:p

NADH is neither new nor a wonder supplement.

As a scientist this has my interest!
 
Aleksandar37

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Oh yeah- I guess the treatment of alzheimers and parkinsons is mentioned in this article in the intro bullets-sorry. But not my focus at all- so I won't discuss in detail, but there is a lot of research to suggest NADH is a potentially effective adjunct to traditional parkinsons/ alzheimers therapy. But I'll worry about that in a few years from now.....

I understand and appreciate your vigilance. NADH is just a component of our supplements- we do not market NADH as a stand-alone supplement.

And at the end of the day, when the people speak on AM.com who have used the product, the truth will come out, and if we are selling snake-oil it will come to light. In the interim your vigilance is appreciated.
And I'm by no means saying any of your products don't work. I also realize you have a job to do as a rep. Personally I just prefer to see in a few sentences what the product does, or if you want to promote NADH as a component, then list some major papers and let the research do the talking. Malinski's accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at, but he also isn't the top name in NO research either. Good to have another Chicago person on here too!!!
 
fightbackhxc

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Downstate IL > Chicago IL :D
 
fightbackhxc

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If you like 100 of miles of corn in every direction lol
I am a country boy. Chicago shouldn't even be considered IL. We don't' have a say in what happens anyway. You guys elect all these stupid governors into office lol.
 
Aleksandar37

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I am a country boy. Chicago shouldn't even be considered IL. We don't' have a say in what happens anyway. You guys elect all these stupid governors into office lol.
I'm in full agreement. Don't worry. They all eventually go to prison:p
 
fightbackhxc

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bdcc

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I'm also sorry, but your science "facts" are a bit off... I don't even have the time to tackle them all, but 1! Malinski was the first to show NO in situ in an endothelial cells...NO was detected way before his time. Also, there is this: The Nobel Assembly at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, has awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for 1998 to Robert F Furchgott, Louis J Ignarro and Ferid Murad for their discoveries concerning "the nitric oxide as a signalling molecule in the cardiovascular system". Get one of them to give a quote and you'll have my attention. And 2!!! A physician would not give NADH for any of those conditions/diseases, especially not Parkinson's or Alzheimer's...it doesn't even make sense to give it to an Alzheimer's patient!!! I understand the Parkinson's mention, but you can not synthesize dopamine if the cell bodies in the nigra are dead. And 3!!! "As a matter of fact Dr. Tadeusz Malinski states that NADH stimulates NO production 10 x more than any substance he has ever tested!" I'm calling bull**** on this. Can you please provide a reference for this? NADH is not even needed for in vivo production of NO from eNOS. NADPH yes; NADH no. My head hurts >.<...
Massive asset to the board with posts like this Aleks. I would rep you but I need to spread the reputation. My generosity must have decreased recently.
 
BigGunn

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And I'm by no means saying any of your products don't work. I also realize you have a job to do as a rep. Personally I just prefer to see in a few sentences what the product does, or if you want to promote NADH as a component, then list some major papers and let the research do the talking. Malinski's accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at, but he also isn't the top name in NO research either. Good to have another Chicago person on here too!!!
OK- that makes sense. Yes, lots of Chicago people. Kind of cool really!
 
Royd The Noyd

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So what's the explanation of its stability? And refrigeration. I've always understood it degrades very quickly making it fairly useless in supplement form.
 
Aleksandar37

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Massive asset to the board with posts like this Aleks. I would rep you but I need to spread the reputation. My generosity must have decreased recently.
Thank you sir! :)
 
BigGunn

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bdcc

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So what's the explanation of its stability? And refrigeration. I've always understood it degrades very quickly making it fairly useless in supplement form.
Bump this.
 
BigGunn

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I think that is a good question- I am waiting for an answer from our chemist. I know I have been told that if the NADH is exposed to moisture that the coenzyme degrades rapidly, but that whatever the process is to preserve the supplement in its final form, its stability was not in question. I don't know what that what is....but I will find out.

So what's the explanation of its stability? And refrigeration. I've always understood it degrades very quickly making it fairly useless in supplement form.
 
BigGunn

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Massive asset to the board with posts like this Aleks. I would rep you but I need to spread the reputation. My generosity must have decreased recently.
Yes, very nice post, but it did not change the fact that NADH is essential in the catalyzing the conversion of the amino acid L-Tyrosine to L-Dopa and that it is necessary in the chemical conversion below.

NAD(P)H:quinone oxidoreductase > increases the cellular NADH > increases Akt/AMP-activated protein kinase/eNOS activation

And while I can appreciate a member on the boards advocating for the community, please be careful if you are a board rep going after our credibility and research, because I can play those games too. Ask the rep who "pimps" an NO boosting product that is scientifically proven to INHIBIT eNOS. If you want to play the "I can make that other company look stupid game" then I can play it too. So tread lightly bdcc, for you have no idea what my background is and my capability to poke major holes in your science as well. But that is not productive at all is it?! For either of us.

But from members I welcome that questions/ concerns/ cynicism, etc.
 
Aleksandar37

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Yes, very nice post, but it did not change the fact that NADH is essential in the catalyzing the conversion of the amino acid L-Tyrosine to L-Dopa and that it is necessary in the chemical conversion below.

NAD(P)H:quinone oxidoreductase > increases the cellular NADH > increases Akt/AMP-activated protein kinase/eNOS activation
NADH is utilized in dopamine synthesis. I agree with that. The stuff about eNOS activation however seems to be getting confused. Where are you getting that pathway from? NADH and NADPH are two difference things.

As for the stability of NADH. The MSDS from Sigma says to store it at -20 C which is what I would do if I had it in the lab. I don't think asking that question is an attack, no matter if the member is a rep from another company or not. If it truly can not be stored at room temp, then it is a valid question to ask how we should know what percentage will we get if you want us to buy the product.
 
BigGunn

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NADH is utilized in dopamine synthesis. I agree with that. The stuff about eNOS activation however seems to be getting confused. Where are you getting that pathway from? NADH and NADPH are two difference things.

As for the stability of NADH. The MSDS from Sigma says to store it at -20 C which is what I would do if I had it in the lab. I don't think asking that question is an attack, no matter if the member is a rep from another company or not. If it truly can not be stored at room temp, then it is a valid question to ask how we should know what percentage will we get if you want us to buy the product.
It is not solely used in dopamine synthesis.

It is critical-essential-non negotiable-in conversion of Arginine to no and tyrosine to l-dopa; as well as very important in the creation of ATP.

And I do believe that YOUR agenda is credible, but I find it all too convenient when a board rep from another company is truly "interested" or "concerned" about our formula.

I don't go around questioning products from competitors whose only scientific data comes from rat studies in India! I'll let you figure that one out- that is the beauty of this community.

Just because the vendor/ synthesizer recommends that the compound be stored in refrigeration does not mean that it needs to be stored that way or it is no longer stable? The reality is that the coenzyme most likely needs to be kept from excessive heat to avoid degradation.
 
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And while I can appreciate a member on the boards advocating for the community, please be careful if you are a board rep going after our credibility and research, because I can play those games too. Ask the rep who "pimps" an NO boosting product that is scientifically proven to INHIBIT eNOS. If you want to play the "I can make that other company look stupid game" then I can play it too. So tread lightly bdcc, for you have no idea what my background is and my capability to poke major holes in your science as well. But that is not productive at all is it?! For either of us.

But from members I welcome that questions/ concerns/ cynicism, etc.
Wait..

So just cause someone is a rep from a competing company and they have a legitimate & valid question about a product you manufacture they can not ask it because it is an attack at your credibility and since they rep for a competing company it is a conspiracy to discredit your product?

Wow, talk about cynicism huh?
 
baldwanus

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Wait..

So just cause someone is a rep from a competing company and they have a legitimate & valid question about a product you manufacture they can not ask it because it is an attack at your credibility and since they rep for a competing company it is a conspiracy to discredit your product?

Wow, talk about cynicism huh?
flawed logic is flawed :p
 
Aleksandar37

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It is critical-essential-non negotiable-in conversion of Arginine to no

Just because the vendor/ synthesizer recommends that the compound be stored in refrigeration does not mean that it needs to be stored that way or it is no longer stable? The reality is that the coenzyme most likely needs to be kept from excessive heat to avoid degradation.
NADPH is needed for synthesis of arginine to NO by the NOS enzyme. You are NOT selling NADPH. You are selling NADH which is something else. I don't know how else to explain it.

And YES!!! That is exactly why the vendor tells you to store it at -20C. I have three dessicators in my lab: one at room temp, one in the fridge, and on in the freezer. We also have a -80 for the really goofy ****. It's not an arbitrary decision by the company to where it should be stored.

I'm gonna go away now before my head explodes >.<
 
BigGunn

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NADPH is needed for synthesis of arginine to NO by the NOS enzyme. You are NOT selling NADPH. You are selling NADH which is something else. I don't know how else to explain it.

And YES!!! That is exactly why the vendor tells you to store it at -20C. I have three dessicators in my lab: one at room temp, one in the fridge, and on in the freezer. We also have a -80 for the really goofy ****. It's not an arbitrary decision by the company to where it should be stored.

I'm gonna go away now before my head explodes >.<
OK, well I don't want to be responsible for your head exploding! But NOOOOO, because the vendor recommends a storage temperature of 5C for example- it does not mean the agent/ compound will degrade at ambient temps.

A good, and popular, example is GHRP-6. Check that same vendor- or other vendors, and the temp storage recommendation is the SAME as NADH. And it well documented that this compound will remain stable in a powder form up until about 90F. So just because the vendor recommends that the compound be kept at a temp of 5C, does not mean it will degrade at room temp.



It is not arbitrary- it is s prudent recommendation.



Storage Condition Store peptide in DRY form at 0 - 5oC.
 
BigGunn

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Yes- and flawed science is flawed science. But real- documented- proven science is not flawed right? Please- enlighten me baldwanus. Communicate your unbiased critique of our products, and then to be fair, how about I do the same for yours. And where does that get us? Just two "rival" supplement companies bickering.




flawed logic is flawed :p
 
baldwanus

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Yes- and flawed science is flawed science. But real- documented- proven science is not flawed right? Please- enlighten me baldwanus. Communicate your unbiased critique of our products, and then to be fair, how about I do the same for yours. And where does that get us? Just two "rival" supplement companies bickering.
when have i made any comments about your company or ingredients?

all i said was this should have been in the promo section, not the supp section.

EDIT:
cool, now at least its in the right section.

and, not sure why you have to get so defensive.......chill the fawk out bro, its an online forum.
 
BigGunn

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Wait..

So just cause someone is a rep from a competing company and they have a legitimate & valid question about a product you manufacture they can not ask it because it is an attack at your credibility and since they rep for a competing company it is a conspiracy to discredit your product?

Wow, talk about cynicism huh?
Yes, it is cynical. You are right. A character flaw I should improve upon. But by no means, am I defensive with every rep that poses a question about our products. I guess some reps rub me the wrong way. Too cynical, you are right!
 
BigGunn

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when have i made any comments about your company or ingredients?

all i said was this should have been in the promo section, not the supp section.

EDIT:
cool, now at least its in the right section.

and, not sure why you have to get so defensive.......chill the fawk out bro, its an online forum.
I guess I thought I understood you correctly by assuming that my science was "flawed logic"? If not- my apologies.
 
baldwanus

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I guess I thought I understood you correctly by assuming that my science was "flawed logic"? If not- my apologies.
comment wasnt aimed at your science or product......it was aimed at your "cant have a debate with another supp rep" comment..........because honestly, if you cant tolerate other users on here *some of which are supp reps* asking questions, these kind of forums arent for you.
 
BigGunn

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comment wasnt aimed at your science or product......it was aimed at your "cant have a debate with another supp rep" comment..........because honestly, if you cant tolerate other users on here *some of which are supp reps* asking questions, these kind of forums arent for you.
Understood,
 
fightbackhxc

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FOR PETES DRAGON just wait till he can get word back from his Chemist. Then after that you can agree or disagree.
 
Aleksandar37

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FOR PETES DRAGON just wait till he can get word back from his Chemist. Then after that you can agree or disagree.
Agreed, but he keeps posting false info. I would still like to see this mythical NO reaction that has NADH as a co-factor. Dear reps, if you don't know an answer, there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know, but I will get back to you." I don't expect all reps to be biochem experts, but if they are going to copy and paste misleading info and straight up lies, I'm speaking up before people start handing over their hard-earned money.

A question for their chemist as well: Since they include mucuna pruriens in the product, how do they know that any and all dopamine-related effects don't come exclusively from that ingredient and that it would do the same thing without the NADH?
 
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