- 05-17-2005, 01:42 PM
- 05-20-2005, 07:46 PM
- 05-20-2005, 09:03 PM
Still has not shipped as of Friday. Realistically, it may be a few more weeks.
If, by Monday, they tell me it will be much longer I'll get my money back and order it through someone else.
05-24-2005, 10:57 AM
Just keep us posted my friend.Originally Posted by custom
05-29-2005, 10:19 AM
06-01-2005, 07:53 PM
Yeah, same detection time as Nolva.Originally Posted by NeedleDick
This may work well for gyno, but it's the PCT application that excites me! This is the only SERM that ever made me cream my jeans before. Strong stuff, but only 1/3 as toxic as Nolva.
YES! Thanks Custom!!
06-01-2005, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by darius
I think this has been said before but the only conclusive studies I have seen on gyno reduction for persistent pubertal gyno were trials that lasted close to 6 months. I think I will run the raloxifene in the same manner as the studies on pubmed that showed success. That is if I can stand not juicing for that long (-:. I kid of course!
06-03-2005, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by DR.D
I think it should work for gyno as well. The study below shows a better response than tamoxifen for gyno.
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifen in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia. STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene). RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients. CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.
just realized X_muslce already posted this. I added some color though.
06-03-2005, 02:24 PM
Since your the guru on this stuff (you're always pushing it as an alt to nolva) any guidelines for dosing?Originally Posted by DR.D
Similar scheme to nolva? Start high, taper down, 4 weeks?
06-03-2005, 02:32 PM
I think dosages may have to be worked around to find the proper scheme. I have read various studies where raloxifene dosages range from 50 to 200mg daily.Originally Posted by Enigma76
For instance here is one where men received 120mg daily:
Effects of raloxifene on gonadotrophins, sex hormones, bone turnover and lipids in healthy elderly men.
Duschek EJ, Gooren LJ, Netelenbos C.
Department of Endocrinology, VU University Medical Centre, Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
OBJECTIVE: To explore effects on serum lipids, pituitary-gonadal axis, prostate and bone turnover of the administration of the mixed oestrogen agonist/antagonist raloxifene in healthy elderly men. PARTICIPANTS: Thirty healthy men aged 60-70 years randomly received raloxifene 120 mg/day (n=15) or placebo (n=15) for 3 months. MEASUREMENTS: In this double-blind, placebo-controlled study, serum gonadotrophins, sex hormones, prostate specific antigen (PSA), a marker of bone turnover, urinary hydroxyproline (OHPro) and cholesterol were measured at baseline and after 3 months. RESULTS: Raloxifene significantly increased serum concentrations of LH and FSH (by 29% and 21%), total testosterone (20%), free testosterone (16%) and bioavailable testosterone (not bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG; 20%). In parallel with testosterone, 17 beta-oestradiol also increased by 21%. SHBG increased by 7%. Total cholesterol (TChol) decreased significantly, from 5.7 to 5.5 mmol/l (P=0.03). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-c) and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-c) showed a trend to decrease. Overall, there was no change in urinary OHPro/creatinine ratio as a marker for bone resorption. However, the raloxifene-induced increases in both serum testosterone and 17 beta-oestradiol were significantly related to a lower OHPro/creatinine ratio. Total PSA increased by 17% without significant changes in free PSA or free/total PSA ratio. Participants reported no side effects and raloxifene was well tolerated. CONCLUSION: In healthy elderly man, raloxifene 120 mg/day for 3 months increased LH, FSH and sex steroid hormones. Potentially beneficial effects were the small but significant decrease in TChol and the trend towards a decrease in LDL-c. Negative effects were the trend towards a decrease in HDL-c and the significant increase in serum PSA. A decrease in markers of bone resorption during raloxifene treatment was found only in men with relatively high increases in serum testosterone and 17 beta-oestradiol. Overall, there were no clear beneficial effects of administration of raloxifene to ageing men in this preliminary investigation.
Then this one uses 60mg:
Raloxifene to prevent gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist-induced bone loss in men with prostate cancer: a randomized controlled trial.
Smith MR, Fallon MA, Lee H, Finkelstein JS.
Division of Hematology and Oncology, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.
GnRH agonists decrease bone mineral density and increase fracture risk in men with prostate cancer. Raloxifene increases bone mineral density in postmenopausal women, but its efficacy in hypogonadal men is not known. In a 12-month open-label study, men with nonmetastatic prostate cancer (n = 48) who were receiving a GnRH agonist were assigned randomly to raloxifene (60 mg/d) or no raloxifene. Bone mineral densities of the posteroanterior lumbar spine and proximal femur were measured by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. Mean (+/-se) bone mineral density of the posteroanterior lumbar spine increased by 1.0 +/- 0.9% in men treated with raloxifene and decreased by 1.0 +/- 0.6% in men who did not receive raloxifene (P = 0.07). Bone mineral density of the total hip increased by 1.1 +/- 0.4% in men treated with raloxifene and decreased by 2.6 +/- 0.7% in men who did not receive raloxifene (P < 0.001). Similar between-group differences were observed in the femoral neck (P = 0.06) and trochanter (P < 0.001). In men receiving a GnRH agonist, raloxifene significantly increases bone mineral density of the hip and tends to increase bone mineral density of the spine.
Now admittedly, these studies are not exactly the application that I think most on this board want to research.
Last edited by size; 06-03-2005 at 02:55 PM.
06-03-2005, 03:42 PM
- 6'1" 221 lbs.
- Join Date
- Nov 2002
For the love of god could you please stop with the "Tamox is toxic" crap. Its ridiculous.
For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
06-03-2005, 05:10 PM
I'm just going to close my ears now. LalalalalalaOriginally Posted by Bobo
Besides Bobo, those are the old days. Ral is here now so rejoyce! I can talk smack about Clomid and Nolva, but this one is clean as a whistle. Not only on paper, and it is more liver friendly than tam, but from my few PCT's using it too.
06-03-2005, 05:54 PM
Size gave some good, applicable reports. Not less than 120mg is my suggestion. Toremifene is the stronger of these two, and is the one I call an alternate to Nolva. But Raloxifene is similarly clean. 240mg is the highest I'd experiment with.Originally Posted by Enigma76
06-03-2005, 07:02 PM
Where is the Raloxifene?? I hate to sound like an annoying ass, but where the hell is the Raloxifene??
06-03-2005, 08:31 PM
Date and Time Status Location
6/3/2005 7:17 pm Departing origin. Shanghai, China
2:54 am Arrived at DHL facility. Shanghai, China
6/2/2005 9:20 pm Picked Up by DHL.
Now that I know it has actually shipped, it should not be long now...hopefully.
I cant really complain much even if this was shipped a month late as the company selling me a single KG of this was a huge favor and pain for them to do.
06-03-2005, 11:24 PM
That is awesome, awesome news. Thank you so much Custom. Any idea on prices yet? And do you see yourself getting future shipments also?
Again, thanks so much.
06-03-2005, 11:37 PM
What about a long term dosing scheme for purposes of getting rid of gyno? Like for 3 or more months of use. Does anyone know how much they were taking in that gyno reduction study?Originally Posted by DR.D
06-04-2005, 05:45 AM
If it sells well, then yeah, futire shipments are on. On price, I have not yet determined that...I'd like to see more info on dosing and duration of use so i am not unknowingly raping people with the price.
06-04-2005, 09:32 AM
I think Dr. D hit the nail on the head with his suggestion of 120mg a day.
06-07-2005, 12:00 PM
So....does that mean you would start with 120mg and taper down? Maybe like 120/100/80/60.....or is 120 the low end?
Either way...this sounds like a pretty nice PCT weapon.
06-07-2005, 03:18 PM
Theres going to have to be some experimenting on that part to figure it all out. At least we know its really safe though. In my "The Pill Book", it states that this is prescribed for osteoporosis in post menopausal women, at least originally it was. I think they are finding out now that it works well for breast cancer as well. I'm sure healthy individuals would not see any major bone strengthening however. It says Raloxifene reduces the reabsorption of bone in the bloodstream and slows the overall rate at which bone is broken down and receptors in bone. Also states that it reduces the rate at whicht he body makes cholesterol and other blood fats. It also states that Raloxifene is rapidly absorbed into the blood with only 2% of a 60mg tab making it into the blood. It seems very safe though, especially for men, because in test studies according to this book, women took as high as 600mg a day without any problems at all. Animals have taken up to 810 times the human dosage without problems as well.
This really does seem like the best you can get for PCT.
I think a "painless oral" version of this would be insanely awesome.. seriously.. someone needs to figure it out haha. 2% of a 60mg tab is 1.2mg, so that would be like injecting 2.4mg of this into your pet rat for Dr. D's recommendation of 120mg.
Or maybe some sort of transdermal for the gyno?
06-07-2005, 07:03 PM
I think a good dosage point will be 100mg.Originally Posted by custom
06-07-2005, 07:41 PM
That looks effective, or maybe something like 120,120,60,30 depending on your responseOriginally Posted by -2z-
06-08-2005, 12:14 PM
Last edited by custom; 06-08-2005 at 03:15 PM.
06-08-2005, 12:18 PM
06-08-2005, 12:36 PM
06-08-2005, 01:27 PM
I searched the forum and I see your policy on shipping.. but any chance of this making it to Canada? I promise not to complain about duties and taxes.
06-08-2005, 01:29 PM
That is great, thank you custom!!!Originally Posted by custom
Last edited by Neuromancer; 06-08-2005 at 03:59 PM.
06-08-2005, 02:54 PM
Awesome... will def be ordering this with my fish oil caps.
06-08-2005, 03:13 PM
Send me an email with what you were wanting to pick up.Originally Posted by spitboy
06-08-2005, 03:47 PM
Awesome. Thanks alot Custom, I seriously appreciate this alot.
06-08-2005, 08:38 PM
Are there any ways to help absorption? How about if taken at night with my fish oil?
06-08-2005, 09:15 PM
Cholestyramine (or any anionic resin) severly inhibits abs. So does ampicillin, but other common meds are compatable. Absolute bioavailability sucks (2%) so the oral absorbtion (60%) is not that crutial, but high fat meals do increase the Cmax by 28% and AUC by 16%. It might be worth consideration if the pre-systemic clearance wasn't so high. In other words, 2% of 60% is about the same as 2% of 70%, so don't knock yourself out trying to get some fat with it, but it doesn't hurt.Originally Posted by darius
06-08-2005, 09:45 PM
Thanks Dr. D. Just curious, where did you learn all this stuff? Did you take college classes or just surf the net lol? Right now I am majoring in chemistry (going into pharmacy). Still in basics right now, but am looking forward for my year with organic chem.
After pharm school, I wouldn't mind designing my own stuff too.
06-08-2005, 10:16 PM
Organic is where you will learn a ton about the makeup of compounds. Just seems to take a while for it to sink in or at least it did for me..
He who wished he would take another organic class
06-08-2005, 10:35 PM
I majored in physics and minored in chem, but had a strong interest in endocrinology and medicinal chemistry since I was in high school. I learned it slowly over the years on my own basically, though it connects with my education somewhat. I have a whole wall full of books (pre-internet days) and taught myself most of what I know. Trial and error was often the only way to test my theories, but I almost killed myself over 100 times so I don't suggest that, now it's much easier to find obscure data on the net. I wish I had become a pharmacist too, I'd be making a lot more cash today! But just learn every chance you get and pursue your true interests and you'll pick it up over time. Take an eclectic approach to learning.Originally Posted by darius
06-10-2005, 10:10 AM
you don't have to lie hereOriginally Posted by darius
06-10-2005, 11:46 AM
Would grapefruit juice have any positive impact on absorbsion or magnify its effect? Does anyone have a list of those herbs/compunds/etc. on which GFJ has apositive effect?
06-10-2005, 04:53 PM
Nah dude.. I got this mouse a few years ago. He's got a little bit of pubertal gyno that he really wants gone. That's all. He also likes the idea that this is going to be awesome for PCT. Damn, it makes me jealous that I'm not a mouse.Originally Posted by bigman420
06-10-2005, 06:45 PM
No. It can be taken without reguard to meals really. The list you want could be easily found with a simple Metacrawler search.Originally Posted by Beau
Similar Forum Threads
- By Pykee in forum AnabolicsReplies: 4Last Post: 05-26-2003, 09:16 PM
- By Beta BBer in forum General ChatReplies: 2Last Post: 05-22-2003, 04:37 PM
- By goes4ever in forum AnabolicsReplies: 6Last Post: 05-12-2003, 09:26 AM
- By DarCSA in forum SupplementsReplies: 68Last Post: 04-06-2003, 11:43 AM
- By YellowJacket in forum AnabolicsReplies: 1Last Post: 02-05-2003, 08:04 PM