Epistane PCT = Do I have enough?
- 12-14-2008, 08:36 PM
Epistane PCT = Do I have enough?
I am just about finished with a cycle of Epistane. (20/30/30/30) I have about 3 days left. The only things I have for PCT are 6 oxo, T-Bomb II and creatine.
I also have DHEA and horny goat weed but don't know if these would be useful at this time.
I was planning on starting creatine again along with taking the 6 oxo and T Bomb II. Do you think this will be enough for a PCT?
In the past I had 6 oxo and Retain 2 after doing Epi. Do I need to order/run to the store and get anything else or do you think this will be ok. Thanks for any input.
- 12-15-2008, 11:17 AM
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I would like to see a SERM on hand...but i do realize that is not possible for everyone. I think you would be better off with something like creatine + AI Post Cycle Support + 2g Tribulus/day if you cannot get a SERM
- 12-15-2008, 06:53 PM
I would had the Horny Goat Weed, Epi is pretty mild, I ran a cycle of pulsed epi for 2 weeks (1 day at 20, 1 day at 30, 4 days at 40), tren clone for 30 days, then epi everyday for 3 weeks at 30. my shut down was extremely mild and bounced back in bout fully in about 4 days. took 6 bromo, horny goat weed, and trans reservatrol. Also took Lean FX for cortisol control. I think you'll be fine as far as getting your nads back in production, Id invest in a cortisol controller as well though...thats the main reason gains are lost.
12-15-2008, 09:18 PM
Wow. I don't know where to start.
You bounce back fully in 4 days after 9 weeks of anabolic use. Did you have pre and post blood tests? or are you just going from the size of your nuts?
Tren (any clone) is known to cause significant shutdown. Epi, while milder is still a steroid and will definitely cause some degree of shutdown within a couple of weeks.
You bounced back fully in 4 days using herbal supplements?!
Even the best PCT using high doses of HCG with clomid and nolvadex has been shown in clinical studies to take 45 days to return endogenous test production back to normal levels.
After 4 days, without a SERM, without Pregnyl... and with only Epimedium (Horny Goat Weed) and your other over the counter products... your looking at a couple of % improvement on your natural test production at best. Your body would have barely even got the signal that there is no more exogenous source of steroids coming in any more.
"Id invest in a cortisol controller as well though...thats the main reason gains are lost."
You've been waayyyy too trusting in what supplement companies tell you. Don't get me wrong, I hate it when people underestimate the power of cortisol (often by not sleeping enough or eating right)... but its no the main reason why gains are lost.
The main reason gains are lost is due to the fact that after any cycle WORTH DOING your body produces ZERO testosterone.
Sure, lower test = higher cortisol... but that is very small compared to the fact that testosterone is required for muscles. If you have the test levels of a 12 year old girl, your body is going to change to start to look like it.
But hey, lets tell people their body will bounce back completely in 4 days on OTC and herbal sups?
12-15-2008, 09:37 PM
4 days, man?
Homeostatsis after a 9 week cycle isn't back to, or any where close to its set point in 4 days no matter what you're using.
And having a Cortisol product isn't going to help you keep your gains. The main reason why people don't keep their gains is because of faulty diet (macros), and not having the proper Post Cycle Therapy.
Damn, 4 days?
12-16-2008, 10:32 AM
Man, 4 days is nowhere near enough timevto get things going again. I don't care if your in your teens you got to take at least two to four weeks off any steroid cycle. And the time off is not just to help your LSH production but, it meant to relieve the organ stress that has been inflicted on your liver, kidneys, and heart. These organs need time to heal from the damage done by the drugs.
Also, regardless of the type of cortisol blocking agent, you will lose some muscle during PCT cause your body is no longer in a consistent "anabolic state".
12-16-2008, 04:59 PM
sorry to offend, just saying what worked for me. i lost nothing but body fat post cycle, libido came back strong, acne continued, and strength remained the same....guess im a lucky one not privi to a SERM. BTW this wasnt my first cycle. Did the real thing back in january and had significant shutdown and it took over a month to bounce back. then in june did the real thing again, different type however, and took about a month that time too. however this run I did with the designers PCT worked wonders and was defiantly my most successful PCT. first time I kept my gains...So I guess I should thank IBE for making EpiStane... as you were gentlemen
12-16-2008, 05:23 PM
also just want to clarify I'm not at all saying my PCT lasted 4 days. my PCT is for a month. I'm saying after 4 days my balls were back. That never happened with my prior PCT attempts but of course I was taking much harsher anabolics in the shutdown department. And also I was going the same route as the OP.
In the end telling him to take AI's PCT is EXACTLY the same as me saying HGW and T-res worked for me.
he's got 6-oxo, i got 6-bromo....
telling him to add a cortisol controller in the mix would seem to be a nice safe guard to keeping his body from becoming "too" catabolic.
So even though you may not like my "PCT success story",
seems to me we are suggesting the same thing for SERM alternative.
12-16-2008, 06:40 PM
a) If you are in your teens you should not be on a steroid cycle. Your endocrine system is not yet fully developed.
b) 2 weeks between oral cycles (especially since this guy did 9 weeks) is not enough time to recover from the hepatoxic effects. Not even close to HPTA recovery.
12-16-2008, 07:13 PM
I really do not think you understand how cortisol works. Cortisol blocker as a safe guard = yes
Cortisol being the main reason for lost gains = not even close
I think you should re-name your "PCT success story" to "why I am an idiot"
'first time i kept my gains'
'guess im a lucky one not privi to a SERM'
WOW! You continue to surprise me.
Your ball size is not a good indicator of your natural testosterone levels. Acne only shows on the skin 2 weeks after developing under the surface... so it is obvsiouly going to continue for a while. Libido post cycle is even worse of an indicator. Man I want sex 24/7 even at my lowest PCT points.
The only thing that will tell you properly is pre and post blood tests.
Don't try and tell people otherwise. It just spreads ignorance.
P.S. Any cycle worth doing requires a SERM.
Oral only cycles are dubious at best. They can only be used for short periods due to hepatoxic effects. They require long periods for recovery for the same purpose.
Throwing in the added loss of muscle from a lack of SERM is a definite deal breaker.
12-16-2008, 07:48 PM
....The OP has stated he has no SERM, the IBE rep recommend he add AI's PCT.
I said it worked for me...
I guess I dont understand why your so upset about it. Do I have pre/post test to back up any of my thoughts? Nope.
All I have is my prior run with Deck which shut me down hard for over a month even with a SERM.
And my Prior run with EQ which shut me down for a month.
Do I have test to support that...nope....but ...and this may surprise you again. alot of people dont involve their doctor when experimenting with these type of drugs. All I got is my ball size, the mirror and what I can push in the gym. Which is probably the only thing the OP has as well.
You guys come in these threads advising people to get checked out by there doctors and then ontop of that ask for a SERM. I agree with your advice but reality is..not everyone is going to do that. So instead of sounding like a broken record talking about SERM this and SERM that, understand the situation and educate them on there alternatives.
Fact is no matter how much you hate the way I worded it my balls came back after four days into my PCT. Don't know what my Test levels are but I know I'm feeling like a million bucks in the gym. Only weight I have lost was body fat. Guess what....Thats all us without the SERM or Doctor visit really care about. I doubt the OP is going to go to the doctor, so why dont you give him some advice about a SERM alternative and maybe something that can help with whatever else you'd go to the doctor to find out.
Last edited by Uncle Ralph; 12-16-2008 at 07:49 PM. Reason: mispelling
12-16-2008, 08:44 PM
a) The IBE rep recommended a SERM. I agree that ppl will use this stuff whether they have the proper ancillaries or not. If people are going to be using PH/PS without a SERM anyway then it is the IBE reps job to say the next best option rather than say "dont use our product". He is a rep! From his point of view, if people are going to be doing dumb crap then it may as well be with his company.
b) If you don't have a SERM you shouldn't be using steroids. Period.
c) If you don't get blood tests you should be even more cautios. Way more. So... even more of a need to use a SERM.
d) You say you only lost body fat post cycle. With your display of knowledge im guessing you lost bloat and thought it was fat. With your length of cycle and PCT there is no way you lost only body fat post cycle, regardless of what crap you say.
e) Why am i upset? Because steroids are serious business and your offering SHOCKING advice to people who may not realise how ignorant you are. Thats why I am upset.
Don't want to see people waste money. Don't want to see people with jaundice. Don't want to see people end up with hypogonadism.
12-16-2008, 08:55 PM
What shocking advice did I give???? I said add horny goat weed and a cortisol controller (which btw he took last time for his PCT) to his stack of 6-oxo, creatine, and t-bomb.
Everything else I said was from my own experience...didnt tell him to do anything I did, just told him what I did.
Honestly I think your more upset with what I did to myself rather anything I have suggested to the OP.
12-16-2008, 10:16 PM
2 points though.
People immitate what you do based on how you analyze the results. You said you bounced back completely in 4 days... but this would make you the spawn of superman and jesus. With the 3 most powerful PCT products (pregnyl, clomid, tamoxifen), clinical studies have shown a 45 day recovery period (from blood tests).
Secondly, if you re-read your first post you said:
'I think you'll be fine as far as getting your nads back in production.'
If people get into the habit of poor steroid cycling without proper PCT then they run the risk of permanent damage to the HPTA and therefore run the risk of primary and/or secondary hypogonadism... which may require long term hormone replacement therapy in some cases.
I sound harsh in what i've said to you, but if you don't have a background in chemisty (or at the very least have extensive knowledge from proper research into androgens), then you aren't in a position to say...
'I think you'll be fine as far as getting your nads back in production.'
12-16-2008, 10:55 PM
I'd like to apologize to the OP for this thread being focused on my comments and not focusing 100% on your initial question.... seemed like you had 3 days to add something if you were going to.....did you?
12-18-2008, 05:10 PM
Rule of thumbs: If you don't have a SERM, you don't have a pct. Get one!
Personally I prefer clomid as it's less expensive and better for the shutdown recovery which should be the main concern for everyone doing ph/AAS.
If T Bomb II is a trena-clone, then don't even think of using it as a pct, I hope that's not what you were thinking. Whomever gave you that idea is talking bout something WAY over his head=P
So yea, get clomid, if not, stick with 6-oxo, horny goat weed and creatine. If you're thinking of upping the dosages from 20/20/30/30, then get a SERM.
12-18-2008, 05:15 PM
12-18-2008, 05:28 PM
12-18-2008, 05:35 PM
Hehe, I guess I'm a bit more old school, rely on clo cos it's proven through time to be reliable. And it doesn't lower your igf levels as opposed to nolva, which makes it easier to keep the gains. Honestly I gotta say I don't know much about Torem at all, none of my friends seem to use it. Usually they do clomid, arimidex or nolva.
12-19-2008, 08:01 PM
I definitely think it is the SERM for the future, but stuff like nolva has been tried and tested for so very long.
hmmm... although given the weaknesses of clomid, and the carcinogenic fears of nolva... maybe i should jump on board.
Do you have any good links to threads or any good reading for Farestin (toremifene)?
I am new to the boards but have a background in chemistry... would love to see what the bodybuilding world thinks of torem atm.
12-20-2008, 10:54 AM
Myogenix put out a nice test booster called hardcore test. It has Formestane as well as bunch of herbs such as tribulus, longjack, etcs.
12-21-2008, 04:34 PM
I wasn't able to get a SERM, so I've been sticking with the 6 oxo, T-Bomb II, Horny Goat Weed, Creatine, and BCAA's. I took the EPI for 3 weeks at 20 for the first week then 30 out to finish. The only thing I'm doing different now than in the past is that I don't have a cortisol blocker. I've been eating a ton, spacing out the supps listed above and so far so good. Next time I know to have proper items for the PCT. Would anyone consider the Sustain Alpha a good product to use in the PCT phase? I've used it on it's own in the past and liked it. As far as the post above of feeling back to normal or whatever after 4 days, I don't know about that, sounds not right to me. Thank you all for your imput thus far, i appreciate it.
12-21-2008, 04:54 PM
I would use the Sustain over the 6-OXO. If you do run the 6-OXO, I would taper it.
12-22-2008, 06:15 PM
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