Keto diet on a bulk

[Ducoteycd]

Has anyone tried this and had success?

At the moment I'm cutting using a keto diet but in a few weeks when I reach my goal I'm going to try and bulk cleaner this time because I have my diet better dialed down.

I have heard of using a keto diet with a refeed on Saturday and Wednesday but haven't actually heard of anyone on here trying this. Would anyone suggest it? I would be eating around 3000 calories with 5% carbs, 65% fats, 30% protein on normal days and probably around 350-400 carbs on refeeds.

[fueledpassion]

No, its not going to work.

The body demands insulin in order to shuttle certain amino acids into the muscle. Without enough carbs, you forfeit the ability to supply the essential nutrients to the muscle to grow.

In fact, I'd place money on the fact that you have likely lost a sizeable amount of muscle while on Keto. Not to mention to consequences it has on ur heart.

I'd love to go into the metabolic difference between fats and carbs, but its impossible to convice Ketoers any different. Yes, cutting carbs means losing fat but it also means losing muscle. So Keto and bulk? Absolutely not. Keto and maintenance? MAYBE. Keto and getting smaller? Absolutely.

Stop eating so much fat, start eating slow releasing carbs like sweet potatoes, leafy greens, rice, and legumes and start eating lots of protein as well, placing emphasis on whole protein sources for 60% of ur protein needs.

Do cardio, since aerobic activity targets fat for energy. Pre-breakfast is the best time for this. Do anaerobic activity for muscle growth. Eat tons of healthy carbs and you'll grow.

[JudoJosh]

Sure why not. However the gains will be significantly slower than a balanced diet would be adipose gain will probably be less overall as well. Give it a try and see what happens

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[JudoJosh]

No, its not going to work.

The body demands insulin in order to shuttle certain amino acids into the muscle. Without enough carbs, you forfeit the ability to supply the essential nutrients to the muscle to grow.

Protein causes a insulin release as well

In fact, I'd place money on the fact that you have likely lost a sizeable amount of muscle while on Keto.

Why would you assume that? Ketogebic diets when done correctly are muscle sparing

Not to mention to consequences it has on ur heart.

And what are these?

I'd love to go into the metabolic difference between fats and carbs,

Please do

but its impossible to convice Ketoers any different.

I'm not necessarily pro keto myself so you shouldn't have that problem

Yes, cutting carbs means losing fat but it also means losing muscle. So Keto and bulk? Absolutely not. Keto and maintenance? MAYBE. Keto and getting smaller? Absolutely.

why does cutting carbs = muscle lost? Why do you think that a caloric deficit diet with carbs has the ability to retain muscle any more than a caloric deficit diet without carbs?

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[fueledpassion]

Protein causes a insulin release as well


Why would you assume that? Ketogebic diets when done correctly are muscle sparing


And what are these?



Please do

I'm not necessarily pro keto myself so you shouldn't have that problem

why does cutting carbs = muscle lost? Why do you think that a caloric deficit diet with carbs has the ability to retain muscle any more than a caloric deficit diet without carbs?

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Look, I can tell you like to argue for conventional internet wisdom. I don't have time to point out every single citation of every single scienctific fact out there because you refuse to do 15 minutes of research on your own to verify it. I just got done verifying the harmful effects of fructose to a bunch a noobs just a minute ago and now here I am again trying to help people understand a more effective way to go about getting more mass and all I get is opposition from people with even less evidence themselves.

KETO is not healthy, period.

yes, insulin is released when you eat protein, but very little.

KETO diets are attempting to manipulate the insulin-glucagon axis at the expense of muscle nutrients. The muscle demands a maintenance calories, NOT FAT. So when you cut calories, you cut the muscles resources which means you will lose muscle mass. Furthermore, cutting calories also reduced the metabolism. This is also consequential for muscle building activity. The body goes into a fat-storing mode when you go too far into a caloric deficit. This is obvious. And even better, when you come out of that diet, your body still remains in the fat storing mode to avoid starvation if ever am extreme shortage of calories happens again. It's a survival mechanism, which KETO triggers. Ever heard of yo-yo dieter?

At the VERY least, if you cut 800 calories of carbs, replace them with MCT oil so you don't waste muscle when you train.

BTW, fat cannot metabolize without oxygen. Weight training is ANaerobic, meaning, "without oxygen". Where then, does your muscle get it's glycogen from? Fat is unable to metabolize quick enough for this type of training, which is why fat-burning happens in aerobic activity, such as sitting ,standing and sleeping.

[Distilled Water]

Has anyone tried this and had success?

At the moment I'm cutting using a keto diet but in a few weeks when I reach my goal I'm going to try and bulk cleaner this time because I have my diet better dialed down.

I have heard of using a keto diet with a refeed on Saturday and Wednesday but haven't actually heard of anyone on here trying this. Would anyone suggest it? I would be eating around 3000 calories with 5% carbs, 65% fats, 30% protein on normal days and probably around 350-400 carbs on refeeds.

It's absolutely 100% possible. I'm living proof of it with healthy cholesterol, thyroid & liver values to back I'm healthy.

I'd bump the refeed amount. You could actually (once you've established keto) have a carb/pro shake pre/intra/post. I take 1 cap AP then wait 15-20min and hammer a Kaybolyn/Whey (50/25) shake about 1hr pre. I continue to sip on a similar carb/pro drink during my workout and eat some cereal when I get home from the gym.

It's more of a TKD/Carb Backload I guess but I've used it with great success in the past.

[fueledpassion]

JudoJosh, let me apologize for my earlier post. I simply disagree that carbless diets are ideal in any goal for a bodybuilding physique. I just think its an incredible waste of effort and that if u r willing to put ur body through that much discomfort, why not just eat clean and stay away from artery-choking foods to begin with? Thats all it takes for proper nutrient partitioning. Not to mention if ur on cycle with something, you'll have great partitioning anyways. No need for fasting or starving urself imo.

[JudoJosh]

Look, I can tell you like to argue for conventional internet wisdom.

on the contrary. Feel free to check my post history. I typically avoid "arguments" and "pissing contest" however I do enjoy productive discourseand when that turns into pointless arguing and full of logical fallacies then I leave.

I don't have time to point out every single citation of every single scienctific fact out there because you refuse to do 15 minutes of research on your own to verify it.

Maybe because no such research exist ?

I just got done verifying the harmful effects of fructose to a bunch a noobs just a minute ago and now here I am again trying to help people understand a more effective way to go about getting more mass and all I get is opposition from people with even less evidence themselves.

Fructose itself isn't unhealthy. Excessive fructose is.

KETO is not healthy, period.

There is nothing to suggest it is harmful.

Instead what we have is -
http://owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf which showed no delterious health effects from a prolonged keto diet

yes, insulin is released when you eat protein, but very little.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf

KETO diets are attempting to manipulate the insulin-glucagon axis at the expense of muscle nutrients. The muscle demands a maintenance calories, NOT FAT.

Muscle demand calories but not fat? So fat doesn't have calories??? This make absolutely no sense. And to add muscle, by calories, is majority fat and less than half protein

So when you cut calories, you cut the muscles resources which means you will lose muscle mass. Furthermore, cutting calories also reduced the metabolism. This is also consequential for muscle building activity.

[/quote]

Yes but the keyword here is calories. If you cut back on carb intake and maintain caloric intake then you will be fine

The body goes into a fat-storing mode when you go too far into a caloric deficit. This is obvious. And even better, when you come out of that diet, your body still remains in the fat storing mode to avoid starvation if ever am extreme shortage of calories happens again. It's a survival mechanism, which KETO triggers. Ever heard of yo-yo dieter?

Actually no. This depends on your intake. For example a PSMF diet mimics a starvation type diet but also feeds your body the necessary protein intake which results in remarkable rate of fat loss

At the VERY least, if you cut 800 calories of carbs, replace them with MCT oil so you don't waste muscle when you train.

I support the addition of MCT to anyone's diet

BTW, fat cannot metabolize without oxygen. Weight training is ANaerobic, meaning, "without oxygen". Where then, does your muscle get it's glycogen from? Fat is unable to metabolize quick enough for this type of training, which is why fat-burning happens in aerobic activity, such as sitting ,standing and sleeping.

Fuel will come from glycogen stores which will replenish on their own regardless of Carb intake. And to add to this for the athlete who is training multiple times at a high intensity this is where fructose becomes very beneficial.


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[fueledpassion]

on the contrary. Feel free to check my post history. I typically avoid "arguments" and "pissing contest" however I do enjoy productive discourseand when that turns into pointless arguing and full of logical fallacies then I leave.



Maybe because no such research exist ? Sure it does. http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publication....htm#dietmyths

This is all I will give you. It comes from USDA. It's a special link built for people like you.



Fructose itself isn't unhealthy. Excessive fructose is.



There is nothing to suggest it is harmful.

Instead what we have is -
http://owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf which showed no delterious health effects from a prolonged keto diet



http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf



Muscle demand calories but not fat? So fat doesn't have calories??? This make absolutely no sense. And to add muscle, by calories, is majority fat and less than half protein. Let me be more clear, smart aleck! Muscle CONSUMES calories, fat STORES calories. So when you are in a caloric DEFICIT, this means that your body is consuming more than it brings in.

You like to take my words out of context in order to make yourself seem right, which is why I am putting to an end the argument since it doesn't matter what I say, it will be moved out of context. You knew dang well what I meant. It's people like you that cause others to feel intimidated to try something outside of the soccer mom practices of getting lean. I'm just trying to help thid guy understand that KETO is only good to lose mass in general, as both fat and muscle will be lost.

Yes but the keyword here is calories. If you cut back on carb intake and maintain caloric intake then you will be fine.
Actually no. This depends on your intake. For example a PSMF diet mimics a starvation type diet but also feeds your body the necessary protein intake which results in remarkable rate of fat loss. You are either in a caloric deficit and losing weight or you are in a surplus and gaining weight. Your body will take amino acids (protein) and convert it to glycogen in order to have energy. This happens BEFORE ketones are used. Muscle glycogen is broken down very quickly and will always be preferred over fats.



I support the addition of MCT to anyone's diet They create KETONE BODIES far more efficiently than cutting carbs. Yes, MCT's create Ketones amongst high carb diets..imagine that..



Fuel will come from glycogen stores which will replenish on their own regardless of Carb intake. And to add to this for the athlete who is training multiple times at a high intensity this is where fructose becomes very beneficial. Except that a large portion of that fructose is converted to triglycerides and stored as body fat.


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I give up. Have what you want, which is:

you are right, I am wrong.

I honestly don't give a crap if the guy loses all of his strength, stamina and muscle mass in pursuit of getting lean. It's really ok with me.

And yes, you do like to be controversial. I remember the last time I tried to state something obvious (about a year ago), I recall YOU being the one who trashed the information because you didn't like what I said. Nevertheless, for every article supporting your claim, there is one for mine too. Even better, the protocol I follow is also a protocall that athletes and pro-bodybuilders follow. I don't need your seal of approval to give out information.

[Ducoteycd]

Hey guys thanks for the responses! Sorry I haven't replied for a while I didn't see that anybody responded.

Since posting this I have actually changed my diet after further research. I enjoyed the keto diet and didnt lose any strength, just a couple inches around my waist and I'm definitely more defined. I liked it but I'm gonna try a kind of pre contest diet for the remainder of my cut an then make necessary adjustments to bulk cleaner in a few weeks.

[fueledpassion]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/conte...-insulin-2860/

Something to consider reading before you continue moving forward for mass building.