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My Clean Bulking

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    My Clean Bulking to lead to a PH cycle


    Age: 34
    Height: 5'10''
    Weight: 198 lbs
    Body Fat: 17% (will measure again this weekend 1/12/2013 or 1/13. Have a Taylor scale though it's not the best but it gives me a relative point of reference)
    Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein (slowly increasing calories because I am losing weight. However, my waist is not getting any smaller! My waist looks normal first thing in the morning but as the day goes, it gets bloated. And that's everyday!!!)

    (All meals are weighed or come labled except my family dinner. Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)
    Morning: Protein shake
    Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
    Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
    Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
    Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ?)
    Post workout: Protein shake
    Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
    Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
    Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

    Exercise: (I have an office job so most of my day is pretty sedentary. Squat, bench press, deadlift, and military press are my main ones. Majority is free weight with machine for last exercise.)
    Day 1: Shoulder and Legs
    Day 2: Chest and Biceps
    Day 3: Back and tricepss

    Cardio: 20~30 mins post lifting (weekdays) and 30~40 mins (weekends). Either stairmaster or stepmaster because they make me sweat.

    Each workout lasts about 1 and 1/2 hours.

    I have kept my fat intake low because I want to slim my waist down but I am not sure if this will work or not. What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

    --
    Sincerely,
    Eddie
    20130109
    Last edited by gorgor03; 01-10-2013 at 08:36 AM. Reason: To input meals

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    What food do u eat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    Weight: 198 lbs
    Body Fat: 17%
    Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein

    Morning: Protein shake
    Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
    Snack: Cereal bar
    Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
    Snack: Protein bar
    Post workout: Protein shake
    Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
    Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
    Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

    What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

    --
    Sincerely,
    Eddie
    20130109
    Cut out all that supplemental artificial protein junk and replace with real food. Post workout shake is fine. Add more healthy fats. Try to get up to 100 on non workout days.
    •   
       

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    Reduce carbs to 200g and increase fats to make up the reduction in calories.

    As for your actual "food" plan, you need to use protein shakes/bars as they're intended and that is only if they are needed, not for convenience. Meal frequency has little to no bearing on gaining muscle, so you do not need to constantly graze to keep nitrogen levels high. The most important thing for you to focus on is eating whole foods and meeting your caloric needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    Reduce carbs to 200g and increase fats to make up the reduction in calories.

    As for your actual "food" plan, you need to use protein shakes/bars as they're intended and that is only if they are needed, not for convenience. Meal frequency has little to no bearing on gaining muscle, so you do not need to constantly graze to keep nitrogen levels high. The most important thing for you to focus on is eating whole foods and meeting your caloric needs.
    True...you say you can't afford to eat as much meat, so you supplement with powder...the protein powder Is prolly more expensive than meat...it's easy to find cheap meat...tuna, mix that with some rice and veggies...cheap meal...also buy food in bulk hell of a lot cheaper...even buy the not so lean beef and just drain the fat yourself..cheap stuff...drop the cereal bar empty cals, add almonds and fruit...hell even a pb and j sandwich with a glass of whole milk
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    Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

    Some interesting things to read though:

    Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

    Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

    Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.


    A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

    Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

    Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.




    And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

    The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
    refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
    amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
    stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
    second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
    leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
    avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
    consume larger doses of protein
    that contain sufficient leucine to
    maximize mtor signalling and mps
    while allowing enough time (4-6
    hours) for post prandial amino acid
    levels to fall in between meals in
    order to re-sensitize the system.
    According to the protein stat
    theory, a second nutritional
    intervention which may overcome
    refractoriness is to create a
    supraphysiological rise in plasma
    amino acid levels between meals.
    A free form amino acid supplement
    would likely be rapidly digested
    and empty into the bloodstream
    quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
    above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
    advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
    high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
    becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
    Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
    30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
    essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
    compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
    This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
    carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
    to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
    The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
    carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
    refractoriness is a future focus of our lab’s research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
    with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
    Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
    may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
    the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
    balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
    protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
    greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis.
    Current
    research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
    responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
    and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
    dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
    ~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
    pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
    achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
    content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
    sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
    to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
    leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
    day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
    essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
    meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
    refractoriness
    .

    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    ^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.



    OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.
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    As an aside, you mention losing weight but your waist isn't getting smaller.

    Assuming you mean fat instead of weight in general, your gut will be one of the last places to shrink. If you are losing fat, keep it up and be patient.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    Age: 34
    Height: 5'10''
    Weight: 198 lbs
    Body Fat: 17%
    Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein (slowly increasing calories because I am losing weight. However, my waist is not getting any smaller!)

    (Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)
    Morning: Protein shake
    Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
    Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
    Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
    Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ?)
    Post workout: Protein shake
    Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
    Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
    Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

    I have kept my fat intake low because I want to slim my waist down but I am not sure if this will work or not. What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

    --
    Sincerely,
    Eddie
    20130109
    Fat intake does not mean fat gain. Dietary fat plays a big role in hormone regulation
    . If your losing weight but your waist us not getting smaller than your not eating enough. Unless of course your already low bodyfat.

    What does your daily activities look like? If your very active during the day and also workout you'll need to increase your calories to make up for the energy burned during the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

    Some interesting things to read though:

    Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

    Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

    Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.


    A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

    Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

    Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.




    And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

    The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
    refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
    amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
    stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
    second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
    leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
    avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
    consume larger doses of protein
    that contain sufficient leucine to
    maximize mtor signalling and mps
    while allowing enough time (4-6
    hours) for post prandial amino acid
    levels to fall in between meals in
    order to re-sensitize the system.
    According to the protein stat
    theory, a second nutritional
    intervention which may overcome
    refractoriness is to create a
    supraphysiological rise in plasma
    amino acid levels between meals.
    A free form amino acid supplement
    would likely be rapidly digested
    and empty into the bloodstream
    quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
    above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
    advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
    high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
    becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
    Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
    30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
    essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
    compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
    This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
    carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
    to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
    The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
    carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
    refractoriness is a future focus of our labís research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
    with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
    Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
    may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
    the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
    balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
    protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
    greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis.
    Current
    research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
    responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
    and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
    dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
    ~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
    pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
    achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
    content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
    sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
    to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
    leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
    day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
    essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
    meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
    refractoriness
    .

    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    ^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.



    OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    As an aside, you mention losing weight but your waist isn't getting smaller.

    Assuming you mean fat instead of weight in general, your gut will be one of the last places to shrink. If you are losing fat, keep it up and be patient.
    At. 17% bodyfat he should most definetly be dropping waist size if his weight is dropping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

    Some interesting things to read though:

    Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

    Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

    Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.

    A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

    Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

    Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.

    And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

    The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
    refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
    amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
    stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
    second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
    leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
    avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
    consume larger doses of protein
    that contain sufficient leucine to
    maximize mtor signalling and mps
    while allowing enough time (4-6
    hours) for post prandial amino acid
    levels to fall in between meals in
    order to re-sensitize the system.
    According to the protein stat
    theory, a second nutritional
    intervention which may overcome
    refractoriness is to create a
    supraphysiological rise in plasma
    amino acid levels between meals.
    A free form amino acid supplement
    would likely be rapidly digested
    and empty into the bloodstream
    quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
    above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
    advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
    high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
    becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
    Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
    30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
    essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
    compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
    This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
    carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
    to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
    The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
    carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
    refractoriness is a future focus of our lab's research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
    with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
    Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
    may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
    the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
    balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
    protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
    greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis. Current
    research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
    responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
    and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
    dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
    ~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
    pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
    achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
    content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
    sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
    to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
    leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
    day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
    essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
    meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
    refractoriness.
    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    ^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.

    OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.
    He never said it wasn't beneficial, just that it's not necessary. If its easier for OP to eat frequently to meet his calories and macros that's fine. If its easier to eat 4 large meals that's just as good. Really whatever keeps you on track is what is more beneficial.
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    Let's hope he would prefer optimal to minimal, I would prefer not to get in to semantics.

    Regarding his waist, he mentions a daily "blotation" as time goes on. I'm not convinced he is accurately measuring fat.

    And yeah, this again. Feel free to go in to the research and the article plus it's referenced research and debunk them. The evidence is clear, frequent feedings are beneficial to mps, when utilizing carbs and protein in a roughly 2-1 ratio between meals spaced roughly five hours apart, which would follow the OP here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Let's hope he would prefer optimal to minimal, I would prefer not to get in to semantics.

    Regarding his waist, he mentions a daily "blotation" as time goes on. I'm not convinced he is accurately measuring fat.

    And yeah, this again. Feel free to go in to the research and the article plus it's referenced research and debunk them. The evidence is clear, frequent feedings are beneficial to mps, when utilizing carbs and protein in a roughly 2-1 ratio between meals spaced roughly five hours apart, which would follow the OP here.
    I agree he is not measuring correctly. I didnt his bloating reference ( which is normal with all those carbs) because he keeps edited his first post instead of replying.

    Either way he is trying to learn too much at once. He needs not to worry about meal frequency.
    Tracking his cals more closely and eating whole foods his what he needs to focus on.
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    In the meantime, OP, you have research supported evidence to the efficacy of your diet vs. unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum. Take them each for what you will.


    It is a real shame bodybuilders aren't studied though, given increased futile turnover, hormonal response to training stimuli, muscle damage where protein is required for repair and a slew of other physiological actions brought on by a specific type of training as compared to general athletes, CNS centered strength programs and certainly the general, largely sedentary population. Until that happens we won't have a real answer to the question in this thread and limitations to studies both supporting and detracting will abound.

    The available evidence does point to the frequent feeding schedule with protein and carb intake between meals to be beneficial , however.

    And the study comparing 60 college athletes absolutely shows frequent meals to reach a set calorie point vs. limited meals reaching the same to favor increases in lean mass and decreases in fat mass, as a side note to your belly issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Let's hope he would prefer optimal to minimal, I would prefer not to get in to semantics.

    Regarding his waist, he mentions a daily "blotation" as time goes on. I'm not convinced he is accurately measuring fat.

    And yeah, this again. Feel free to go in to the research and the article plus it's referenced research and debunk them. The evidence is clear, frequent feedings are beneficial to mps, when utilizing carbs and protein in a roughly 2-1 ratio between meals spaced roughly five hours apart, which would follow the OP here.
    Debating anything with you is a waste of time. I have a better chance of teaching my cat English than you taking the plugs out of your ears.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastybean View Post
    I agree he is not measuring correctly. I didnt his bloating reference ( which is normal with all those carbs) because he keeps edited his first post instead of replying.

    Either way he is trying to learn too much at once. He needs not to worry about meal frequency.
    Tracking his cals more closely and eating whole foods his what he needs to focus on.
    I agree he should track his calories more closely, but that he should do it within a frequent meal/snack structure vs any other diet, as referenced by the college athletes obtaining 1,200 cals per day in the study posted above.

    It's as easy as dividing it all out by six. Or calculating meal calories and dividing by three then adding supp calories between.

    Unfortunately, he can't afford the required food according to his op. And if he is losing weight, his belly will start to shed if it isn't already. It sounds to me he is using belt size vs. fat calculations to determine fat loss which we all know won't work. Chugging a large glass of water will make his belly instantly "fat".

    It can take awhile for fat loss to show in a mirror, especially if there aren't "before" pictures to compare.
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    Thank you all for your input! I keep editing my 1st post according to your inputs and to keep my responses in one place. Thanks again and very appreciated!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    Age: 34
    Height: 5'10''
    Weight: 198 lbs
    Body Fat: 17% (will measure again this weekend 1/12/2013 or 1/13. Have a Taylor scale though it's not the best but it gives me a relative point of reference)
    Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein (slowly increasing calories because I am losing weight. However, my waist is not getting any smaller! My waist looks normal first thing in the morning but as the day goes, it gets bloated. And that's everyday!!!)

    (Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)
    Morning: Protein shake
    Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
    Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
    Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
    Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ?)
    Post workout: Protein shake
    Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
    Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
    Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

    Exercise: (I have an office job so most of my day is pretty sedentary)
    Day 1: Shoulder and Legs
    Day 2: Chest and Biceps
    Day 3: Back and tricepss

    Cardio: 20~30 mins post lifting (weekdays) and 30~40 mins (weekends). Either stairmaster or stepmaster because they make me sweat.

    Each workout lasts about 1 and 1/2 hours.

    I have kept my fat intake low because I want to slim my waist down but I am not sure if this will work or not. What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

    --
    Sincerely,
    Eddie
    20130109
    How are you tracking your calories? When you eat something that isn't labeled with nutrition facts like vegetables or meat do you weigh it or just guess.

    Also stop doing cardio. Your bulking. Your workouts are too long. Drop the cardio and do your workout routine but keep rest time to 1-2 minutes rest.
    I hope your doing the major compound lifts...squats, dead lifts, bench and overhead shoulder presses and not a bunch of cable flys, leg extensions and shoulder raises.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Debating anything with you is a waste of time. I have a better chance of teaching my cat English than you taking the plugs out of your ears.
    lol. You can't debunk the linked research and we aren't going to go sideways. The burden of proof is solely on you but you can write it off. I'm sure your cheer squad will be in momentarily to like your posts though, don't worry. They will be giving your position anecdotal support.


    OP, please consider the research. The article is long but discusses multiple studies pertaining to your very post. These studies are all referenced if you'd like to read them independently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    In the meantime, OP, you have research supported evidence to the efficacy of your diet vs. unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum. Take them each for what you will.

    It is a real shame bodybuilders are studied though, given increased futile turnover, hormonal response to training stimuli, muscle damage where protein is required for repair and a slew of other physiological actions brought on by a specific type of training as compared to general athletes, CNS centered strength programs and certainly the general, largely sedentary population. Until that happens we won't have a real answer to the question in this thread and limitations to studies both supporting and detracting will abound.

    The available evidence does point to the frequent feeding schedule with protein and carb intake between meals to be beneficial , however.

    And the study comparing 60 college athletes absolutely shows frequent meals to reach a set calorie point vs. limited meals reaching the same to favor increases in lean mass and decreases in fat mass, as a side note to your belly issue.
    60 college athletes? Lol that's such a small demographic the statistics aren't even worth mentioning. How might you explain intermittent fasting? Whatever
    jump on whatever bandwagon you want and tide it to your goals. Either wagon will get you there just as fast. Just use the wagon that you like the most.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    Thank you all for your input! I keep editing my 1st post according to your inputs and to keep my responses in one place. Thanks again and very appreciated!!!
    If you keep editing your first post the conversation will be completely debased and ridiculous, advice to your particular situation will be potentially worthless and you will invite an argument with no real basis for debate, leading to pages of sideways, out of context bull****.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post

    If you keep editing your first post the conversation will be completely debased and ridiculous, advice to your particular situation will be potentially worthless and you will invite an argument with no real basis for debate, leading to pages of sideways, out of context bull****.
    Lol, that's what I was thinking. So I quote him in my replies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastybean View Post
    60 college athletes? Lol that's such a small demographic the statistics aren't even worth mentioning. How might you explain intermittent fasting? Whatever
    jump on whatever bandwagon you want and tide it to your goals. Either wagon will get you there just as fast. Just use the wagon that you like the most.
    The alternative would be absolutely nothing, on either side, where bodybuilding is concerned. The posted studies were legitimately conducted. Disregard them for dogma built around limitations if you prefer though, I agree.
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    Will post my update as separate response from now on. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastybean View Post
    Lol, that's what I was thinking. So I quote him in my replies.
    Yeah, I'm getting out of here with this in mind. The studies are out to show support of his original OP. What people do with them is up to them.

    Later!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Debating anything with you is a waste of time. I have a better chance of teaching my cat English than you taking the plugs out of your ears.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBqu90T_Dxc
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post

    Yeah, I'm getting out of here with this in mind. The studies are out to show support of his original OP. What people do with them is up to them.

    Later!
    Agreed.

    OP you need to focus on simple things first.
    Eat whole foods! Supplement with a shake only when you do not have the time to cook.

    Track your calories accurately, no guessing.

    Do compound lifts, squats, deads bench overhead press. Heavy weight ( within good form) low reps 5-6

    Follow with light isolation work. Leg extensions, shoulder raises, cable flys etc, keeping weight relatively light and reps in the 10-20 range.

    Keep rest time low doing the isolation work so it turns into a circuit type routine.
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    Your eating about 2700 cals a day, and that's if you've calculated them correctly. Bring that up to 3000. Don't worry about fat gain, as long as your eating healthy you will be fine.
    Keep tracking your waist, if it increases dial your cals back a bit.

    Your bulking! Minimal fat gain is to be expected. I believe a recomp is out if your level at the moment so focus on gaining muscle or losing fat, not both.
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    Mead update


    I think I can start this next week after my weekend supermarket run.

    Fat/Carb/Protein ratio: 30/35/35

    (All meals are weighed (cooked by myself) or come labled except my family dinner. Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)

    Morning: Protein shake (Want to keep this shake because I work really early and have no time to fix anything first in the morning)
    Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
    Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
    Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
    Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ? Maybe Jack Link beef jerky)
    Post workout: Protein shake
    Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
    Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
    Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

    I also like yam but not sure where to fit this in since I already have much carbs. Thank you!
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    Re: My Clean Bulking


    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein
    Increase fat and decrease CHO and PRO intake.


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    My current macro ratio is fat 25% carb 40% and protein 35%. What is the optimal ratio? Thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    My current macro ratio is fat 25% carb 40% and protein 35%. What is the optimal ratio? Thank you!
    There isn't a definite one.

    If you will read through the article and the referenced studies within the article, you will have a solid, scientifically supported idea as to how you should structure your diet.
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    Re: My Clean Bulking


    Quote Originally Posted by gorgor03 View Post
    My current macro ratio is fat 25% carb 40% and protein 35%. What is the optimal ratio? Thank you!
    What is optimal is kinda tricky.

    Optimal Protein intake is gonna be 1.6-1.8g*kg

    Optimal Carb intake for metabolic functions is around 150g BUT this can be lower if you choose to go higher in PRO intake as it can be used to make glucose. For workout days you would want to add another 125g CHO per hour of exercise but again this can vary.

    Fat intake can be used to make up the difference to reach your total caloric goal but I would recommend getting at the very least 100g of fat.



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    Thanks All! Going to see if I can do 245 carb 210 protein and 109 fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

    Some interesting things to read though:

    Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

    Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

    Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.


    A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

    Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

    Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.




    And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

    The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
    refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
    amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
    stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
    second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
    leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
    avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
    consume larger doses of protein
    that contain sufficient leucine to
    maximize mtor signalling and mps
    while allowing enough time (4-6
    hours) for post prandial amino acid
    levels to fall in between meals in
    order to re-sensitize the system.
    According to the protein stat
    theory, a second nutritional
    intervention which may overcome
    refractoriness is to create a
    supraphysiological rise in plasma
    amino acid levels between meals.
    A free form amino acid supplement
    would likely be rapidly digested
    and empty into the bloodstream
    quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
    above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
    advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
    high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
    becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
    Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
    30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
    essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
    compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
    This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
    carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
    to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
    The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
    carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
    refractoriness is a future focus of our labís research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
    with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
    Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
    may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
    the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
    balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
    protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
    greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis.
    Current
    research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
    responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
    and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
    dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
    ~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
    pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
    achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
    content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
    sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
    to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
    leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
    day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
    essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
    meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
    refractoriness
    .

    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    ^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.



    OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.
    Can you please link the FULL TEXT for the boxing one? What you copied and pasted was merely the abstract which doesn't paint a picture to how the study was conducted or even if the same foods were utilized during the study for both groups and whether or not their was a control group.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Can you please link the FULL TEXT for the boxing one? What you copied and pasted was merely the abstract which doesn't paint a picture to how the study was conducted or even if the same foods were utilized during the study for both groups and whether or not their was a control group.

    Thanks.
    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    However it is FAR from conclusive. It is a novel idea and makes logical sense but the majority of the research does not really support his hypothesis but then again who knows really?
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Can you please link the FULL TEXT for the boxing one? What you copied and pasted was merely the abstract which doesn't paint a picture to how the study was conducted or even if the same foods were utilized during the study for both groups and whether or not their was a control group.

    Thanks.
    The study was linked for anyone interested in reading it.


    Edit, never mind. Just referenced. Still searchable but I'll see if I can link it later today, I'm going to be pretty busy this morning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    However it is FAR from conclusive. It is a novel idea and makes logical sense but the majority of the research does not really support his hypothesis but then again who knows really?
    Perhaps the majority of research on a general population, a limitation he addresses while analyzing research geared to athletes, which still doesn't conclusively speak to bodybuilding with its various physiological effects of hypertrophy and increased futile turnover.

    He gives a more accurate picture imo than methodologies built around ignoring severe limitations concerning MPS and nitrogen retention where bodybuilding is concerned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post

    Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

    Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.
    This is actually an interesting one but was carried out horrible. Not long enough and too small of a sample size would be a start but the most glaring problem was the boxers only consumer 1200 calories and only 60g of PRO. So you have an athlete you is insanely hypocaloric AND barely taking in sufficient protein. Is it really a surprise to anyone the they experienced a loss in lbm? Perhaps if they were given adequate calories and protein intake then we can start speculating on the impact of meal frequency.


    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

    Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.
    This is hardly evidence of anything especially any benefit of higher meal frequency. The group that was given the snacks had a higher overall caloric intake then the NON-CALORIC placebo group. This higher overall energy intake can easily explain the difference in lbm gain. Without total energy and macronutrients being matched between both groups it is nearly impossible to attribute anything solely to meal frequency


    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    ^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.
    as I said above the idea of supplementing leucine is an interesting but it rally hasnt panned out. See this discussion for my thoughts on leucine supplementation - BCAA discussion thread
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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