My Clean Bulking

[gorgor03]

Age: 34
Height: 5'10''
Weight: 198 lbs
Body Fat: 17% (will measure again this weekend 1/12/2013 or 1/13. Have a Taylor scale though it's not the best but it gives me a relative point of reference)
Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein (slowly increasing calories because I am losing weight. However, my waist is not getting any smaller! My waist looks normal first thing in the morning but as the day goes, it gets bloated. And that's everyday!!!)

(All meals are weighed or come labled except my family dinner. Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)
Morning: Protein shake
Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ?)
Post workout: Protein shake
Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

Exercise: (I have an office job so most of my day is pretty sedentary. Squat, bench press, deadlift, and military press are my main ones. Majority is free weight with machine for last exercise.)
Day 1: Shoulder and Legs
Day 2: Chest and Biceps
Day 3: Back and tricepss

Cardio: 20~30 mins post lifting (weekdays) and 30~40 mins (weekends). Either stairmaster or stepmaster because they make me sweat.

Each workout lasts about 1 and 1/2 hours.

I have kept my fat intake low because I want to slim my waist down but I am not sure if this will work or not. What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

--
Sincerely,
Eddie
20130109

[DrDeca]

What food do u eat?

[beastybean]

Weight: 198 lbs
Body Fat: 17%
Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein

Morning: Protein shake
Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
Snack: Cereal bar
Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
Snack: Protein bar
Post workout: Protein shake
Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

--
Sincerely,
Eddie
20130109

Cut out all that supplemental artificial protein junk and replace with real food. Post workout shake is fine. Add more healthy fats. Try to get up to 100 on non workout days.

[beastybean]

Edit

[Rodja]

Reduce carbs to 200g and increase fats to make up the reduction in calories.

As for your actual "food" plan, you need to use protein shakes/bars as they're intended and that is only if they are needed, not for convenience. Meal frequency has little to no bearing on gaining muscle, so you do not need to constantly graze to keep nitrogen levels high. The most important thing for you to focus on is eating whole foods and meeting your caloric needs.

[blaykeryan]

Reduce carbs to 200g and increase fats to make up the reduction in calories.

As for your actual "food" plan, you need to use protein shakes/bars as they're intended and that is only if they are needed, not for convenience. Meal frequency has little to no bearing on gaining muscle, so you do not need to constantly graze to keep nitrogen levels high. The most important thing for you to focus on is eating whole foods and meeting your caloric needs.

True...you say you can't afford to eat as much meat, so you supplement with powder...the protein powder Is prolly more expensive than meat...it's easy to find cheap meat...tuna, mix that with some rice and veggies...cheap meal...also buy food in bulk hell of a lot cheaper...even buy the not so lean beef and just drain the fat yourself..cheap stuff...drop the cereal bar empty cals, add almonds and fruit...hell even a pb and j sandwich with a glass of whole milk

[TexasGuy]

Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

Some interesting things to read though:

Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.


A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.




And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
consume larger doses of protein
that contain sufficient leucine to
maximize mtor signalling and mps
while allowing enough time (4-6
hours) for post prandial amino acid
levels to fall in between meals in
order to re-sensitize the system.
According to the protein stat
theory, a second nutritional
intervention which may overcome
refractoriness is to create a
supraphysiological rise in plasma
amino acid levels between meals.
A free form amino acid supplement
would likely be rapidly digested
and empty into the bloodstream
quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
refractoriness is a future focus of our lab’s research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis. Current
research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
refractoriness.
http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.



OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.

[TexasGuy]

As an aside, you mention losing weight but your waist isn't getting smaller.

Assuming you mean fat instead of weight in general, your gut will be one of the last places to shrink. If you are losing fat, keep it up and be patient.

[beastybean]

Age: 34
Height: 5'10''
Weight: 198 lbs
Body Fat: 17%
Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein (slowly increasing calories because I am losing weight. However, my waist is not getting any smaller!)

(Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)
Morning: Protein shake
Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ?)
Post workout: Protein shake
Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

I have kept my fat intake low because I want to slim my waist down but I am not sure if this will work or not. What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

--
Sincerely,
Eddie
20130109

Fat intake does not mean fat gain. Dietary fat plays a big role in hormone regulation
. If your losing weight but your waist us not getting smaller than your not eating enough. Unless of course your already low bodyfat.

What does your daily activities look like? If your very active during the day and also workout you'll need to increase your calories to make up for the energy burned during the day.

[Rodja]

Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

Some interesting things to read though:

Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.


A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.




And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
consume larger doses of protein
that contain sufficient leucine to
maximize mtor signalling and mps
while allowing enough time (4-6
hours) for post prandial amino acid
levels to fall in between meals in
order to re-sensitize the system.
According to the protein stat
theory, a second nutritional
intervention which may overcome
refractoriness is to create a
supraphysiological rise in plasma
amino acid levels between meals.
A free form amino acid supplement
would likely be rapidly digested
and empty into the bloodstream
quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
refractoriness is a future focus of our lab’s research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis. Current
research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
refractoriness.
http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.



OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.

[beastybean]

As an aside, you mention losing weight but your waist isn't getting smaller.

Assuming you mean fat instead of weight in general, your gut will be one of the last places to shrink. If you are losing fat, keep it up and be patient.

At. 17% bodyfat he should most definetly be dropping waist size if his weight is dropping.

[beastybean]

Unfortunately, there haven't been any studies done on bodybuilders to prove the notion that constant grazing isn't beneficial.

Some interesting things to read though:

Iwao and colleagues examined boxers who were subjected to a hypocaloric diet while either consuming two or six meals per day. The study lasted for two weeks and the participants consumed 1,200 kcals per day. At the conclusion of the study, overall weight loss was not significantly different between the groups. However, individuals that consumed 6 meals per day had significantly less loss of lean body mass and urinary 3-methylhistidine/creatinine as opposed to those that only consumed two meals. This would suggest that an increased meal frequency under hypocaloric conditions may have an anti-catabolic effect.

Iwao S, Mori K, Sato Y: Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers.

Scand J Med Sci Sports 1996, 6(5):265-72.

A published abstract by Benardot et al. demonstrated that when a 250 calorie snack was given to 60 male and female college athletes for two weeks after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as opposed to a non-caloric placebo, a significant amount of fat (-1.03%) was lost and lean body mass (+1.2 kg) gained. Furthermore, a significant increase in anaerobic power and energy output was observed via a 30-second Wingate test in those that consumed the 250 calorie snack. Conversely, no significant changes were observed in those consuming the non-caloric placebo. Interestingly, when individuals consumed the total snacks of 750 kcals a day, they only had a non-significant increase in total daily caloric consumption of 128 kcals [49]. In other words, they concomitantly ate fewer calories at each meal. Lastly, when the 250 kcal snacks were removed, the aforementioned values moved back to baseline levels 4 weeks later.

Benardot D, Martin DE, Thompson WR, Roman SB: Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes.

Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005, 37(5):S339.

And an excerpt from a pretty long article:

The time course of mps in response to a meal and the
refractory nature of mps in response to constant elevations in
amino acids make it seem unlikely that an additional
stimulation can be achieved 3 hours post prandially with a
second meal of similar composition to the first, as plasma
leucine concentrations remain peaked. Thus, in order to
avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
consume larger doses of protein
that contain sufficient leucine to
maximize mtor signalling and mps
while allowing enough time (4-6
hours) for post prandial amino acid
levels to fall in between meals in
order to re-sensitize the system.
According to the protein stat
theory, a second nutritional
intervention which may overcome
refractoriness is to create a
supraphysiological rise in plasma
amino acid levels between meals.
A free form amino acid supplement
would likely be rapidly digested
and empty into the bloodstream
quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
above their meal induced plateau. Finally, it may also be
advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
becoming refractory. Evidence for this was provided by,
Padden-Jones et al. (30) who demonstrated that consuming
30 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of free form
essential amino acid supplement containing ~3g of leucine in between meals spaced 5 hours apart enhanced mps
compared to unsupplemented subjects fed the same meals.
This suggests that supplemental free form amino acids and
carbohydrates may either enhance the anabolic response
to a meal or somehow overcome the refractory response.
The potential of free form amino acid supplements and
carbohydrate ingestion between meals to overcome
refractoriness is a future focus of our lab's research. Athletes are more active and have very different goals
with regards to nutrition compared to the average person.
Athletes looking to maximize muscle mass and strength
may benefit from protein levels well above the RDA. While
the RDA focuses on minimum needs to achieve nitrogen
balance, athletes should focus on consuming sufficient
protein to maximize beneficial metabolic outcomes of
greater protein intakes on a meal to meal basis. Current
research suggests that the amino acid leucine is
responsible for much of the anabolic properties of a meal
and maximization of mps in response to a meal is
dependent upon consuming sufficient leucine (3g or
~0.05g/kg bodyweight) to saturate the mtor signalling
pathway. The amount of protein required at a meal to
achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat. These
leucine rich meals should be consumed multiple times per
day and consumption of carbohydrate with free form
essential amino acids ingested between whole protein
meals may further optimize mps, possibly by overcoming
refractoriness.
http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

^ The supporting studies are noted and referenced in the article.

OP, evidence suggests your carb intake is beneficial, as is your "grazing". If you can't afford all the meat, protein supps are "necessary". You're doing it right.

He never said it wasn't beneficial, just that it's not necessary. If its easier for OP to eat frequently to meet his calories and macros that's fine. If its easier to eat 4 large meals that's just as good. Really whatever keeps you on track is what is more beneficial.

[TexasGuy]

Let's hope he would prefer optimal to minimal, I would prefer not to get in to semantics.

Regarding his waist, he mentions a daily "blotation" as time goes on. I'm not convinced he is accurately measuring fat.

And yeah, this again. Feel free to go in to the research and the article plus it's referenced research and debunk them. The evidence is clear, frequent feedings are beneficial to mps, when utilizing carbs and protein in a roughly 2-1 ratio between meals spaced roughly five hours apart, which would follow the OP here.

[beastybean]

Let's hope he would prefer optimal to minimal, I would prefer not to get in to semantics.

Regarding his waist, he mentions a daily "blotation" as time goes on. I'm not convinced he is accurately measuring fat.

And yeah, this again. Feel free to go in to the research and the article plus it's referenced research and debunk them. The evidence is clear, frequent feedings are beneficial to mps, when utilizing carbs and protein in a roughly 2-1 ratio between meals spaced roughly five hours apart, which would follow the OP here.

I agree he is not measuring correctly. I didnt his bloating reference ( which is normal with all those carbs) because he keeps edited his first post instead of replying.

Either way he is trying to learn too much at once. He needs not to worry about meal frequency.
Tracking his cals more closely and eating whole foods his what he needs to focus on.

[TexasGuy]

In the meantime, OP, you have research supported evidence to the efficacy of your diet vs. unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum. Take them each for what you will.


It is a real shame bodybuilders aren't studied though, given increased futile turnover, hormonal response to training stimuli, muscle damage where protein is required for repair and a slew of other physiological actions brought on by a specific type of training as compared to general athletes, CNS centered strength programs and certainly the general, largely sedentary population. Until that happens we won't have a real answer to the question in this thread and limitations to studies both supporting and detracting will abound.

The available evidence does point to the frequent feeding schedule with protein and carb intake between meals to be beneficial , however.

And the study comparing 60 college athletes absolutely shows frequent meals to reach a set calorie point vs. limited meals reaching the same to favor increases in lean mass and decreases in fat mass, as a side note to your belly issue.

[Rodja]

Let's hope he would prefer optimal to minimal, I would prefer not to get in to semantics.

Regarding his waist, he mentions a daily "blotation" as time goes on. I'm not convinced he is accurately measuring fat.

And yeah, this again. Feel free to go in to the research and the article plus it's referenced research and debunk them. The evidence is clear, frequent feedings are beneficial to mps, when utilizing carbs and protein in a roughly 2-1 ratio between meals spaced roughly five hours apart, which would follow the OP here.

Debating anything with you is a waste of time. I have a better chance of teaching my cat English than you taking the plugs out of your ears.

[TexasGuy]

I agree he is not measuring correctly. I didnt his bloating reference ( which is normal with all those carbs) because he keeps edited his first post instead of replying.

Either way he is trying to learn too much at once. He needs not to worry about meal frequency.
Tracking his cals more closely and eating whole foods his what he needs to focus on.

I agree he should track his calories more closely, but that he should do it within a frequent meal/snack structure vs any other diet, as referenced by the college athletes obtaining 1,200 cals per day in the study posted above.

It's as easy as dividing it all out by six. Or calculating meal calories and dividing by three then adding supp calories between.

Unfortunately, he can't afford the required food according to his op. And if he is losing weight, his belly will start to shed if it isn't already. It sounds to me he is using belt size vs. fat calculations to determine fat loss which we all know won't work. Chugging a large glass of water will make his belly instantly "fat".

It can take awhile for fat loss to show in a mirror, especially if there aren't "before" pictures to compare.

[gorgor03]

Thank you all for your input! I keep editing my 1st post according to your inputs and to keep my responses in one place. Thanks again and very appreciated!!!

[beastybean]

Age: 34
Height: 5'10''
Weight: 198 lbs
Body Fat: 17% (will measure again this weekend 1/12/2013 or 1/13. Have a Taylor scale though it's not the best but it gives me a relative point of reference)
Macros: 56 fat 284 carb 221 protein (slowly increasing calories because I am losing weight. However, my waist is not getting any smaller! My waist looks normal first thing in the morning but as the day goes, it gets bloated. And that's everyday!!!)

(Prefer frequent meals because it is easier on my stomach and makes me less sleepy)
Morning: Protein shake
Breakfast: Oatmeal with banana
Snack: Cereal bar (to replace with low sodium can tuna and avocado)
Lunch: Fish/Chicken/Beef/Turkey with vegetables
Snack: Protein bar (to replace with ?)
Post workout: Protein shake
Dinner: Whatever is served by the family(but I eat light here because of the non-exact marcos)
Snack: Cottage cheese with banana
Midnight: Protein Shake (sometimes I skip this if I eat more than I should during dinner)

Exercise: (I have an office job so most of my day is pretty sedentary)
Day 1: Shoulder and Legs
Day 2: Chest and Biceps
Day 3: Back and tricepss

Cardio: 20~30 mins post lifting (weekdays) and 30~40 mins (weekends). Either stairmaster or stepmaster because they make me sweat.

Each workout lasts about 1 and 1/2 hours.

I have kept my fat intake low because I want to slim my waist down but I am not sure if this will work or not. What do you guys think or suggest? Thank you!

--
Sincerely,
Eddie
20130109

How are you tracking your calories? When you eat something that isn't labeled with nutrition facts like vegetables or meat do you weigh it or just guess.

Also stop doing cardio. Your bulking. Your workouts are too long. Drop the cardio and do your workout routine but keep rest time to 1-2 minutes rest.
I hope your doing the major compound lifts...squats, dead lifts, bench and overhead shoulder presses and not a bunch of cable flys, leg extensions and shoulder raises.

[TexasGuy]

Debating anything with you is a waste of time. I have a better chance of teaching my cat English than you taking the plugs out of your ears.

lol. You can't debunk the linked research and we aren't going to go sideways. The burden of proof is solely on you but you can write it off. I'm sure your cheer squad will be in momentarily to like your posts though, don't worry. They will be giving your position anecdotal support.


OP, please consider the research. The article is long but discusses multiple studies pertaining to your very post. These studies are all referenced if you'd like to read them independently.