Trying to gain muscle... only get fat!
- 08-27-2012, 04:20 AM
Trying to gain muscle... only get fat!
I have a serious problem gaining any muscle at all.
I'm 25 years old (6.16ft tall, 175lbs) and seriously training for year and a half now 4 times a week (trained before but always few months on-off), with little results to show.
In the years I went through various diets trying to gain muscle, but it all ended up with fat on my hips and chest!
- high carb, low fat
- carb cycling
- targeted keto
.. Always counting kcals etc!
The only diet that worked was Keto... but it worked for Fat loss. Still got lady hips though.
Now last 1 month i tried to gain some muscle again (with targeted keto- 40g carbs post workout only).-... uh. and again added fat around my waist, hips got larger.. meh.
I'm seriously frustrated right now. I've became a bit of an "expert" in nutrition etc. I've been trying to lose fat since i can remember.. like 5th grade! I don't ever remember the time that i wasn't watching what i eat. Time to time when i let myself go i gain fat extremely fast.
To test it out...3 years ago me and my girlfriend stopped exercising/going to fitness and just ate whatever we want for 3 months (LOTS of junk food, etc). She gained 10 pounds of fat. On the other hand me, eating same amount as my girlfriend (i watched that i didnt eat litterally everything even then)..i gained 16 pounds of pure fat! My hips were sticking out of my tshirt lol.
Then after these 3 months, we started the p90x program for weight loss. We done it 100% accurate.. well she couldnt do some exercises so she worked out quite less. We counted kcals and everything, both ate maintenance-500 kcals or so, always had same meals etc, while she still ate additional doughnuts/fries like 3x a week - i didnt.
In these months she lost 14 pounds and got to 11% body fat. I also lost, but only 9 pounds (while watching what i eat more!) and got to 23% body fat (LOL) . So a WOMAN, who is supposed to gain more fat/lose it harder, beat me without even really trying.
My training or nutrition isn't an issue. 4 of my friends are pure proof of that. Two examples.... 2 years ago i wrote up a nutrition/training plan for a friend of mine who was very overweight. Today he has 25kg less fat (now at 8% bf) and is packin on quite some muscle. 1 n' half year ago two friends started training with me... i was a bit ahead of them as they were totally new to fitness, while i tried before.. Long story short, they'r now light years ahead of me. I can't train with them for quite some time, because they's lifting so much more that its just stupid to always deload weights for me.
Last few weeks I've been doing additional research and thinking I might have some kind of hormonal imbalance (too little testosterone, too much estrogen)
- another symptom could be that, as people said to me... i have lady like legs. Putting it all together, it really seems to me that all this years of frustration could be down to hormones.
I'm thinking I might get a doc's appointment and get my hormones checked, but wanted to ask around before.
What do you guys think?
- 08-28-2012, 01:47 AM
What is your diet like?? List your typical meals for the day
You need to make sure you are getting enough cals. Have you ever taken a mass gainer??
- 08-28-2012, 06:26 AM
Well as i said i tried all possible diets.
High carb, carb cycling (high carb on workout days, low carb non workout), keto (for weight loss), targeted keto now.
Right now I eat around 3000 kcal per day.
200g protein, 60g carbs (post workout), rest is fat (like 200g).
Yesterday i had 6 meals..:
1 - 9am - shake with heavy cream, 25g whey, 15g casein, berries (morning at work, dont fee like eating anything else)
2 - 1pm - Atlantic mackerel in olive oil
3 - 4pm - Chicken - thigh, breast with skin , baked with butter and some heavy cream with it
4 - post workout at like 7pm : 40g high gi carbs with creatine, bcaa, glutamine and then also 30g whey with water
5 - 9pm - tuna fish with lentil(some carbs.. like 10g)
6 - eggs!
Was totally different on high carb... high carb was cca. 60g fat, 200g protein, rest carbs. All carbs were from oat meal, oat bran, whole grains, brown rice and nothing else. Fats mostly from eggs/olive oil and nuts.
On all diets.. all gains were FAT, made like no muscles.
Every month-2 months i also tried different workout rutines, was mixing it up a bit... nothing. Everyone with me gained muscle.. but me.
As far as supplements go i always use:
- omega 3's
- whey (on days i wont get protein from whole foods)
Time to time:
- bcaa + glutamine (usually when training fasted)
- creatine.. which doesn't seem to do anything
- malto ... right now for post workout
08-28-2012, 06:44 AM
08-28-2012, 07:01 AM
My problem are carbs. I gain fat a lot more easy on high carb. I was losing weight on keto at 2500 kcal...while gaining fat (hips, abdominal area) on high carb at same kcals.
Before switching to keto my waist was 36.6 inches (25% fat).. went to 33.3 inch waist on keto cut. Impossible to do on high carb for me, tried and failed multiple times. Right now I've been trying to gain muscle for a month.. switched to some post workout carbs... Waist for bigger...oh well.
08-28-2012, 07:22 AM
08-28-2012, 08:33 AM
You have to eat clean man. Adding butter and cream is not a great way to loose fat or add muscle.
By clean i mean something like this:
breakfast: 4 eggwhites, 2 whole eggs, 1/3 cup of fat free cottage cheese, 2 table spoon of salsa, 2 teaspoon of onion powder (scrambled and cooked)
Meal 2: 2 carrots chopped and dipped in humus + 250g lean meat (chicken breast and lean mince is good) or a protien shake with water
Meal 3 1 large can of baked beans (sauce washed off) with lean meat
meal 4(preworkout) 125g can of tuna with wholemeal wrap
Postworkout shake: 50g protien in water (add 1 scoop of dextrose if you want)
Meal 5: 1 cup (cooked) of basmati/brown rice with lean protein + vegetables
Meal 6: casine shake
Essentially I only try consume starchy carbs before + after my workout (especially while cutting). I am trying to have 150g carbs a day.
I am also trying to not combine high amounts of carbs/fats togeter in any meal. I read that this leads fat gain in numerous places.
If you are trying to bulk and not gaining muscle diet plays a major role. So you have to make sure that is on point. All calories are not created equal. If your diet is on point and you're still not gaining it could be to do with how you train. Dont train so heavy that you use every muscle but the ones your targeting to move the weight-thats easy. Ive found time under tension and really focusing on the muscle you are working is hard and is key to growing. Not just moving the weight.
I hope this helps
08-28-2012, 09:26 AM
What you don't mention is what sort of surplus you go to, and what sort of amount of fat gan you had in what amount of time. if you are gaining 1-2lbs a week, no doubt its mostly fat. as a natural builder, 1/4-1/2lb of real muscle a week is really it after any crazy startup gains.
Last, its hard to tell whether you are actually measuring foods or just estimating calories. if you are estimating what a breast is, it could be far enough off to throw everything
08-28-2012, 10:48 AM
even on keto you should still aim for healthy mono and poly unsaturated fats purely for health and because then fats are far more anabolic then whipped cream and butter but if your trying to build muscle then ditch keto its a fatloss diet, even tkd is a fatloss diet,
you should really decide wether you want to bulk or cut, if your body fat is above 18% i would cut if it gets down to 10 or less youd be in a good position to bulk,
you should also stop comparing yourself to the progress of your friends as you never know what they do or take and every body is diffrent, you may have bad genetics they may have great genetics, you may have a slow metab they may have fast ones using other ppls progress is unfair to yourself,
i would suggest posting up a full sample of your diet with specific measurements coz rightly so, it is easy to under or overestimate portions, if your serious and are struggling this much time to get meticulous and weigh your food, that way there is no guessing,
as for the unusual fat gain in chest and hips i would suggest getting a bio-signature done to help evaluate any possible hormonal imbalances also go to your doctor and get checked for an underactive thyroid,
fat gain is usually accumulated in a surplus of calories, or when ones metabolsim is running at a slow pace which means your either eating to much of the wrong foods or theres an underlying medical reason, post your diet up with exact amounts and wel take it from there...
08-28-2012, 01:40 PM
I've always weight everything in put in my mouth, so calories are correct.
For weight gain I tried surplus of 200-500 per day. Nothing works.
As I said in the post above, over the years I tried all the diets for weight gain and fat loss. For fat loss only Keto worked to some extend (with 700 kcal deficit on non-workout days and meintnance+100 on workout days).
Little over a year ago I composed a diet that has to work and tried it for 2 months and gained nothing.
Anyways... I've searched over the net a bit and found a lab near here where I can get my test tested tomorrow already. Not sure if i should test for Free test or total though.
Me and my girlfriend done some research in this week and it really seems I have some hormonal issues.
- I have very little facial hair (hair isn't even "hard" its more like hair on my head!), shaving once every 1.5 weeks is enough.
- My legs are lady-like.. pretty big quads with very tiny hamstrings.
- Looking at my old pics I had narrow shoulders, narrower then my waist. They are not now due to training!
- I also have lots of fat on my chest, not very much but still, they stick out (as a child in like 3rd grade when i was fat i had actual boobs and hips were actually hangin!).
- My bones are VERY thin and fragile (just a little fall, but when i wanted to stop the fall with my hand it just broke.)
- and this one might not have anything to do with it but... I NEVER, EVER get angry, I just don't give a **** frankly. Over the years in school I though myself to respond to situations which were supposed to make me angry... but I never really cared if someone dissed me or w/e (which actually annoyed some more)
08-28-2012, 01:46 PM
you should get total test, free test, e2, dht, lh and fsh if possible
08-28-2012, 01:52 PM
08-29-2012, 01:27 AM
Yeah but saturatedfatshelp in testosterone production too... so these shouldnt be completly negated.
08-29-2012, 01:36 AM
- 5'10" 183 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
So you believe you have low test?Originally Posted by kingsix
08-29-2012, 02:46 AM
Yeah i do, hoping it's not that though. Looking at possible problems and treatment, doesn't seem like a "walk in the park" issue. Making me kinda scared!
I've been having this suspicion for years, but i tried to overcome it by training hard and through diet. But now I'm kinda beat and lost the motivation and now after further research it really does not seem like this can be threated via my methods and is more serious.
08-29-2012, 02:53 AM
Its nothing to be scared of; the body is overly complex and sometimes, things don't quite work the way you want them too. The problem can be as easy to fix as going on TRT or HRT programme that your doctor may prescribe. Focus on products that enhance natural testosterone production and make sure your diet includes foods that do the same, it might take some time, but you'll certainly notice the difference.
08-31-2012, 01:19 PM
ok got my Total Test results.... it is 3.75 ng/ml ... reference numbers are 2.8- 8... Test was done at 9am (its supposedly important).
I didn't get anything else done as i'm kinda low on cash atm .
This results are also exactly after 4 weeks of use PES-ERASE (2x25mg caps every day) and little amount of DAA. Forgot about this in my inital post. I tried it first time for only 4 weeks to see how it is (after 2 weeks I felt like I could workout longer, wasn't burned out after like 30 mins already).
So for a 25 year old guy, who has a good diet and is exercising (i guess Pes erase and daa also upped them a bit).. how are these results?
Do you recommend I should visit my doctor and get him to do a more ful blood test?
08-31-2012, 01:23 PM
thats not great, but it isn't terrible either. Too low to be an Arnold look alike, not too low to look good.
08-31-2012, 01:35 PM
I wonder though... what the result would be like if i hadn't gone to High Fat (on it 6 months now..which in all studies raises testosterone levels) and on use erase for 4 weeks.
It's actually only after i went to high fat that i managed to start losing fat and gained little bit of muscle definition/mass.
08-31-2012, 01:39 PM
For the erase link, its just hard to say. Part of why getting e2 measured was important too to see where estrogen is at. If it was still high then would definitely be worth talking to your doctor a few weeks after ending the erase.
Its a tough call as to what a doctor would do.That is a low level for your age, but it is still a very functional level.
08-31-2012, 02:29 PM
yeah i really screwed up that i didn't get my e2 tested.
Since i have some female attributes (legs, hips, fatty chest) it might be that my testosterone : estrogen ratio might be screwed up.
Anyway, I'll go to my doctor next week and try to get an appointment to an endocrinologist. It's supposed to be a 6 month wait for it though.
In mean time I guess i'll use up these Erase caps. I also got some I3C and resveratrol laying around...
Been reading around and though these might help me out and they seemed "safe".. unlike some other estrogen blockers/test boosters i been reading up on (didn't even know how to read half the ingredients n they looked like some really weird chemicals. lol).
I was thinking that even if i had really really low test I'd first try to get it up naturally/ or with some more simple supplements then go to TRT or w/e straight away.
Do you maybe have a recommendation on what to take to boost my test.... (without potentially screwing up my hormones even more)?
08-31-2012, 02:39 PM
There are effectively 3 separate issues potentially, and knowing which applies is important. Particularly if you didn't really have the money for a blood test, you don't sound like you'll have enough to hit from all angles and stay on what you are using longer term.
So the 3 major issues are low total testosterone, high conversion to estrogen, low free testosterone. And yes they are interrelated and one can seem to cause another.
Low total testosterone can come from high conversion to estrogen but that is pretty rare that the conversion to estrogen causes that significant of a drop in total T. Then you have low production of testosterone with normal signaling (LH is reasonably high, but T is still low) or low T with low signalling - LH being low as well as T. For this, whether you try to treat raising LH or just raising general testosterone production depends on which you have. If you have high LH + low T production then any money spent on things that raise or mimick LH will be a wasted. Sort of similarly though, if low LH is part of the issue, you'll only get a moderate boost in testosterone production without using something to raise LH.
high conversion to E is reasonably easy to deal with, if you know you have it. For men, E has a range that most men are good in. Sadly/comically it either being too low or too high causes a slew of issues and funniest of all is it causing ED and other sexual malfunctions either being too low or too high. Worst part is - what is too low or too high varies from man to man. I function 100% with E2 anywhere from 30 to 120 (on a scale where normal is I think 10-59) and I go dysfunctional sexually when E2 goes below that 30 or above the 120. Some guys E2 has to be between 12-20 for them.
Low free T is caused by low total T, as well as potentially for men with normal total T a high SHBG. there are things you can use to lower SHBG with, but again if that isn't your issue then you are spending $ for nothing there.
There are a few things that hit more than 1 angle so trying one of those might be a reasonable idea.
08-31-2012, 02:42 PM
Testopro by AI Sports does hit a few of these at once btw http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/a...-120-caps.html
08-31-2012, 03:03 PM
wow man. thanks for the reply !
Basically, I'm pretty sure that Estrogen 'n low T is the issue. Gonna have to wait for the full blood panel I guess.
When talking about hips etc.. this is what I looked like after A LOT of training/dieting (pic is from january). I used to have narrower shoulders/back then my hips.
..and this is me after few months (like 6) on intermittent fasting+keto. I lost like 7cm off my waist, hips still there though. Maybe not as wisible, but When I sit they just hang out. And my chest/lower stomach is generally really fatty.
But now I think I reached my maximum it seems. Can't gain muscle (only get fat) and can't really lose weight without losing lots of muscle.
edit: one last clue i got more estrogen.. i got cellulite.. lots of it :s
09-05-2012, 06:15 AM
was at my docs today....
Basically he said the test is in "normal range", which is it according to paper and not regarding age.
After some debate he finally wrote up that i need to do some more tests... i remember him saying morning glucose and thyroid hormone test.
He asked me about my eating habits etc. When i told him im fasting every day (doing IF - 16h fasts.. which really helped me), he said breakfast is a must and maybe my levels of T are in low range cause of that! LOL.
He also looked at me and said i look fine, so theres no hormonal problems. Well doc. i've been watching what i eat and work out for years.
I guess if i was a fat-ass it would be no question to whether everything is alright!
09-05-2012, 06:29 AM
09-11-2012, 02:34 AM
I guess I read a similar story of yours to me but things changed when I swapped from Bodybuilding routine to Power building routine
I stacked this with Testosterone booster and estrogen blocker on 4-8 week cycle on and 4-8 weeks off.
I'm not listing a recommendation as its not standard routine and it may contain non balanced workout mix. Just sharing what I'm doing at the moment.
2 days split workout and I do continues day 1 day 2 and repeat over 4-5 days cycle then I take 2 days full rest and repeat
Day 1 ((Heavy Day))
-Barbell Squat 5x5
-Barbell Bench Press 5x5
-Barbell Deadlift 1x5 warm up - 1x5 75 % of 5rm - 1x5 100 % rm
-Dumbbell Dead lift 2x5
-Dumbbell Tate press 5x5
-stretching legs + chest + back
Day 2 ((Light Day))
-Push Press 5x5
-Barbell Bent over Row 5x5
-Barbell Shrug super set with Barbell Shrug Reverse 5x5
-Sometimes I do some Forearm sets and pull-ups depend on remaining energy
I do low-med carb diet with a moderately higher protein intake
Things changed mostly if you hit your legs,chest and lower back with heavy loads of weights i.e 1.5x to 2.5x your body weight
09-13-2012, 06:35 AM
You spoked only about calories but this isn't everything. Your training regime also counts !
Try switching to a more muscle building routine oriented training like 5x5
09-20-2012, 12:27 AM
You need to eat bro. Chicken tuna turkey veggies brown rice milk greek yogurt cottage cheese stuff like that eat every 3 hours eat 5 to 7 meals a day and if your trying to cut up I would say around 2800 cals a day. Wack that steel hard 5 times a week and do cardio at least 3 times a week
09-20-2012, 12:50 AM
- 5'10" 183 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
I would find a solid test booster if you haven't already. People seem to love DAA these days. PES, USPLabs, & Purus all have products that can help raise your testosterone levels. I'm not sure exactly what your eating, but I eat (maybe you are eating these things already, if not here are some ideas):
Broccoli (different color veggies)
Any protein powder. (Beef)
>I don't bother with too much dairy as I don't tolerate it well, bit milk & cheese pack a protein punch as well.
Trust me I would say when you start eating healthier, you should see some sort of change. Myself I don't always count cals (part is I know from the similar foods) but activity levels can dictate how hungry I am. If you're not a pro or compete I think eating for fuel & also just feeding your body clean cals when you're hungry is a great place to start.
Bust your ass in the gym, when you start sweating push yourself harder!
--Either way it just ideas. Hope it helps.
09-20-2012, 12:54 AM
Idk about the 5-7 meal recommendation, 3 meals, 5, or 7 all work fine... From your initial diet posting how many veggies and nutrition packed foods do you add in? I had the hardest time gaining muscle weight when I was bulking and totally skipping the produce section... Gained more fat on my old diet that had more protien then I do now on my diet which is still high protein but includes a lot of veggies...
09-20-2012, 12:58 AM
- 5'10" 183 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Cause nutrients is important to muscle growth as well. That's why people need a balanced diet. V8 juice is good as well.Originally Posted by nemix
09-20-2012, 01:02 AM
5 to 7 meals will help keep the metabolism up of course nott 800 cals a meal 2800 a day spread that out.over your meals however you want to lots of protein 1 to 1.5 g per lb of bw carbs prolly 1.5g per lb of bw
09-20-2012, 01:03 AM
And like nemix said lots of veggies man
09-20-2012, 04:05 AM
09-20-2012, 05:10 AM
yeah i know i guess its just a mind thing for me
09-20-2012, 05:22 AM
Meal frequency has nothing to do w metabolism broOriginally Posted by Shorty6890
09-20-2012, 05:22 AM
And I love eating food so that layout works best for me at least.I mean who doesnt like to eat ha
09-20-2012, 05:27 AM
Doesnt it help control cravings and blood sugar?
09-20-2012, 05:34 AM
Wow I just researched all that and it really doesnt matter how many times a day your eating at the end of the day it all plays outt the same..my bad I didnt knoew this! Learn something new erday.
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