KLEEN's Competition Prep - From bleak to FREAK in 20 weeks!

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    Just my .02. Dht base makes me feel better then just test alone. As someone who is in trt, the addition of mast (dht base) I feel tons better. So Stano bing dht may do the job well and keep you rock hard.
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    Yah I had some lethargy but I ran DMZ with 1-alpha so it's not a good combo I think. Good to hear that the DHT based stuff will keep you away from that. It's really interesting to see a more adventurous anabolic regime on prep. I can see how this would allow you to be more aggressive with diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcazo View Post
    With the stack he has planned I would be surprised if he didn't add a few lean pounds..
    Yah, it's hard for guys like me to put that much faith in anabolics after being doing it without for so long. We learn to trust a certain process then all of a sudden we are playing a different game. I know that you can hold weight or even gain during prep but when I see it happen I still get a little panicked, thinking I might be stalling. So we spend a lot of time looking at ourselves making sure we are seeing the changes. Then we have to do pics to ensure this is actually happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah I had some lethargy but I ran DMZ with 1-alpha so it's not a good combo I think. Good to hear that the DHT based stuff will keep you away from that.
    why would that not be good combo? 1-Alpha IS a dht-based androgen compound is perfect mix
    but then, you have said in past that you hold water with every anabolic you run - even on compounds that you simply cannot
    I really don't think you have any understanding of steroids doug
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    why would that not be good combo? 1-Alpha IS a dht-based androgen compound is perfect mix
    but then, you have said in past that you hold water with every anabolic you run - even on compounds that you simply cannot
    I really don't think you have any understanding of steroids doug
    2 step to 1-test no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSaiyan View Post
    2 step to 1-test no?
    yes - via androgenic action
    is why this is an awesome test base for methylated steroids
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    yes - via androgenic action
    is why this is an awesome test base for methylated steroids
    I'm sticking to 1-andro and/or 1 - alpha as test base on every cycle....both are awesome solo, but also a very good addition to any methylated Ph cycle.

    Works for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by superbeast668 View Post
    SUPERBEASTLY PUMPS!!!! Yeah buddy!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02sixxer View Post
    Just my .02. Dht base makes me feel better then just test alone. As someone who is in trt, the addition of mast (dht base) I feel tons better. So Stano bing dht may do the job well and keep you rock hard.
    Absolutely my thinking and experience from using Stano to combat lethargy before.
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah I had some lethargy but I ran DMZ with 1-alpha so it's not a good combo I think. Good to hear that the DHT based stuff will keep you away from that. It's really interesting to see a more adventurous anabolic regime on prep. I can see how this would allow you to be more aggressive with diet.
    It is not a bad combo for growth at all as 1-Test is highly anabolic but not the best combo if trying to combat lethargy since 1-Andro based products are not overly androgenic, and have been known to cause lethargy on their own.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah, it's hard for guys like me to put that much faith in anabolics after being doing it without for so long. We learn to trust a certain process then all of a sudden we are playing a different game. I know that you can hold weight or even gain during prep but when I see it happen I still get a little panicked, thinking I might be stalling. So we spend a lot of time looking at ourselves making sure we are seeing the changes. Then we have to do pics to ensure this is actually happening.
    Agreed. I go through the same thing so I am using the mirror more then only stepping on for check ins or when I look really lean and am often surprised by the numbers on the scale!

    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    why would that not be good combo? 1-Alpha IS a dht-based androgen compound is perfect mix
    but then, you have said in past that you hold water with every anabolic you run - even on compounds that you simply cannot
    I really don't think you have any understanding of steroids doug
    Please do not come into my thread and disparage others or treat them as if they are inferior... Especially when your own understanding of this particular products appropriate use in this scenario is questionable considering 1-Andro based products are widely known to cause lethargy...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSaiyan View Post
    2 step to 1-test no?
    Correct!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    yes - via androgenic action
    is why this is an awesome test base for methylated steroids
    Simply put 1-Andro/1-Alpha converts to 1-Testosterone which yes is a "derivative of DHT" but not highly androgenic in nature like DHT and should not be confused as such.

    In actuality, 1-Test is a very anabolic compound with lower androgenic properties, 1-Test has an anabolic/androgenic ratio of 200/100 which means milligram for milligram it is twice as anabolic as testosterone and equal to testosterone in androgenic action. The conversion rate of 1-Andro products are indeed high enough to increase anabolism however not the case for androgenic activity once shutdown of the HPTA system begins to occur and testosterone levels are lowered. This is why you see in many 1-Andro based product logs where the loggers experience both lethargy and a drop in libido once shut down begins.

    As much as I enjoy 1-Alpha, knowing this I would never recommend it as a testosterone base as it simply is not androgenic enough to be highly successful in that particular use at any reasonably assumed conversion rate. Although Androsterone products can convert to DHT, 1-Andro does not, it was modified so that it converts to the higher anabolic 1-Testosterone and is targeted toward growth. So if he was intending to fight lethargy with that combination it was a poor choice as it would compound the situation not aid in it.

    I myself have used 1-Alpha as a bridge between methyls not to regain that feel good feeling or combat lethargy but instead to increase anabolism. That way I did not lose any of the gains during the bridge. That is a more appropriate use of the product in any type of cycle supporting scenario, and one it actually shines in so long as HPTA recovery during the bridge is not part of the goal.

    Now DHT has an anabolic/androgenic ratio of 152/268 meaning milligram for milligram it is 1.5 times more anabolic than testosterone and 2.7 times more androgenic than testosterone and 1-Testosterone. However it has 3-5 times the affinity to the androgenic receptor in every tissue of the body except skeletal muscle, making it ideal to combat sexual hormone based sides such as lethargy, gyno, loss of libido and increases neurological performance. In this scenario a product that converts to DHT is far superior for battling the side effects of shut down. Even with a similar conversion rate to 1-Andro based products DHT is roughly 3 times more potent on the androgenic side of things. However admittedly less anabolic simply in the fact most of it will bind to an AR outside of the skeletal muscle.

    This is a huge part of the reason it was common practice to have people run EPI-V during the latter parts of the cycles, not only to finish off by cutting up but because it was beneficial to fight the sides of shutdown since it did convert to DHT.

    For a little interesting reading here is a steroid profile on DHT Quoted from a Steroid Profile post on another forum...
    "The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active androgen is actually dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

    5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

    This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, dihydrotestosterone is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

    A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

    Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

    Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

    So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

    It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress – not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

    I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

    Anti–Estrogen effects of DHT

    One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

    How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

    Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

    Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens)."

    Quote Originally Posted by edje007 View Post
    I'm sticking to 1-andro and/or 1 - alpha as test base on every cycle....both are awesome solo, but also a very good addition to any methylated Ph cycle.

    Works for me
    Nothing wrong with sticking with what works for you, heck it is one of the best ways to go.

    Okay on to more important things, good things are happening to my physique and I like it. I am leaning up while becoming fuller at the same time. Hard not to get excited about where things are going at this point! I am leaner than last week and I am up in weight. All of this on 2100 calories a day with 2450 on my high carb days. The anabolics are doing way more than I expected at this point and I expect to be at or under 6% by 4 weeks out if things keep going at this pace.
    Last edited by MrKleen73; 08-23-2013 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Put quotes and disclaimer around copied information.
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    just....wow
    I see you wish to continue on with your rants - that is fine, no worries on me being here surely
    but for you, sir, a little further info on androsterone/1a-sterone:


    3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one (Androsterone)
    3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one (aka Androsterone) is an endogenous steroid hormone and weak androgen with a potency that is approximately 1/7th that of testosterone.

    It can be converted to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) from 17-hydroxyprogesterone, bypassing conventional intermediates such as androstenedione and testosterone. As such, it can be considered to be a metabolic intermediate.

    It was discovered 1931 by Adolf Friedrich Johann Butenandt and Kurt Tscherning. They distilled out of male urine, resulting in crystalline androsterone, which was sufficient to find that the chemical formula was very similar to estrone.

    Androsterone and Epiandrosterone are essentially the same molecule, with androsterone being the 3-alpha isomer and epiandrosterone being the 3-beta isomer.

    Androsterone not only does not convert to estrogen, but it also actually has anti-estrogen effects, making it good to use during a cutting cycle to aid in fat loss.

    Androsterone may be more powerful when used as a sublingual (where it is absorbed through the tissues under the tongue directly into the blood stream). For this reason, androsterone products are often sold as a lozenge to be dissolved slowly in the mouth.

    The typical dosage range for androsterone is 300-400 mg/day, though some may dose higher. This is best used in 4-6 week cycles, with a mild over the counter post-cycle therapy to follow such as an all-in-one test booster and estrogen blocker, of which there are many to choose from.
    as you can see, it is very versatile product; but thanks for informing me how I use it is incorrect
    and the next time you copy & paste something, make sure to use the "quote" function, else it can be considered plagiarism

    take care
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    Chris, awesome detail in here as always. Was just flipping back at your beginning pics and dude you are killing it. Matt has you dialed this far my friend keep this train rolling :-)

    Haven't seen the mrs on here in a long while :-)
    Independent
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    why would that not be good combo? 1-Alpha IS a dht-based androgen compound is perfect mix
    but then, you have said in past that you hold water with every anabolic you run - even on compounds that you simply cannot
    I really don't think you have any understanding of steroids doug
    No I meant for lethargy, I thought it was the 1-alpa but somebody mentioned dmz gave them lethargy so I know 1-test did back in the day. My thinking was that the combination was what did it for me. I am experiencing no water retention whatsoever now. I think before it must have been left over from some of the eating I did on my birthday a week before when I experienced with the DMZ. Yes and I don't pretend to have a good understanding of steroids.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    just....wow
    I see you wish to continue on with your rants - that is fine, no worries on me being here surely
    but for you, sir, a little further info on androsterone/1a-sterone:



    as you can see, it is very versatile product; but thanks for informing me how I use it is incorrect
    and the next time you copy & paste something, make sure to use the "quote" function, else it can be considered plagiarism

    take care
    After seeing the compound you posted up I understand your confusion since you posted up the nomenclature for Androsterone which is well known it converts to DHT... And yes quite a versatile product but not the same compound we were discussing are the same compound in either 1-Alpha or 1-Andro.

    If you go look up the nomenclature for 1-Androsterone as they are not the same compound which I clarified in my post above when I said it was modified to be more anabolic, hence the not converting to DHT.

    I will just supply it here for anyone interested "3-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17-one" quoted directly from the label details of a bottle of FINAFLEX 1-Andro at http://finaflex.com/products/1andro-detail Notice my use of quotes...

    Now do a search that nomenclature asking if it can convert to DHT...

    Since I already did to check my facts I will save you the time... Quoted from the Iron Mag write up on their 1-Andro product.

    "The pro-hormone 1-Androsterone (aka 1-Androstene-3b-ol, 17-one) the main ingredient in 1-Andro Rx converts to 1-testosterone and you will experience similar results that were seen with 1-AD and M1T before they were banned. 1-Androsterone does NOT convert to estrogen or DHT and is not liver toxic."

    Or for further reference you can go read the Study put out by AMS regarding their 1-Andro product here...
    http://www1.advancedmusclescience.co...rman_Study.pdf

    Upon reading you will see the exact same nomenclature as on the FINAFLEX bottle is listed to be also known as 1-Androstene-3b-ol, 17-one. So we can agree it is all talking about the same ingredient being listed as 1-Andro, and it clearly states in the Iron Mag 1-Andro write up above that 1-Andro does not convert to DHT.

    On a personal note: I was not ranting at you other than to tell you that you were not welcome to talk down to others in my thread. Not a rant at all.

    You asked in my thread no less why it would be a bad combination which I explained thoroughly. On top of which I praised your companies product and offered up uses for it that I felt was more appropriate. So not sure how it could have been a rant. Perhaps you just don't like being corrected...

    My apologies for not using quotations around the steroid profile portion of what I wrote. I had not realized the need when I clearly stated it was from a steroid profile, hence not claiming it as my own so plagiarism was never a possibility. If anything that could be considered a copy right infringement but those are not that same thing. I guess the situation here is similar to the Androsterone and 1-Androsterone confusion you seem to be having.

    Since you want to accuse me of ranting because I answered a question you posted in my thread with scientific backing there is no reason for me to be polite to you either.

    So I will simply say...
    Thank you for playing Know Your Prohormones! Unfortunately that answer is incorrect and we will have to send you home today without a prize...
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    Chris, awesome detail in here as always. Was just flipping back at your beginning pics and dude you are killing it. Matt has you dialed this far my friend keep this train rolling :-)

    Haven't seen the mrs on here in a long while :-)
    Thanks Justin! I am working my back side of and his plan is really shaping things up. This morning the guy looking back at me in the mirror smiled and winked at me.. I think he liked what he was seeing so far.

    Yeah the Queen is doing well and looking sexy! She just doesn't have any time to log any of her stuff. She has been rebuilding lost muscle and dropping fat so she is happy with her progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    No I meant for lethargy, I thought it was the 1-alpa but somebody mentioned dmz gave them lethargy so I know 1-test did back in the day. My thinking was that the combination was what did it for me. I am experiencing no water retention whatsoever now. I think before it must have been left over from some of the eating I did on my birthday a week before when I experienced with the DMZ. Yes and I don't pretend to have a good understanding of steroids.
    No Doug you look like a brick sh!thouse my friend!

    Back & Biceps workout was good yesterday, cant wait to go lift again on Saturday, tonight cardio... a means to an end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    After seeing the compound you posted up I understand your confusion since you posted up the nomenclature for Androsterone which is well known it converts to DHT... And yes quite a versatile product but not the same compound we were discussing are the same compound in either 1-Alpha or 1-Andro.

    If you go look up the nomenclature for 1-Androsterone as they are not the same compound which I clarified in my post above when I said it was modified to be more anabolic, hence the not converting to DHT.

    I will just supply it here for anyone interested "3-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17-one" quoted directly from the label details of a bottle of FINAFLEX 1-Andro at http://finaflex.com/products/1andro-detail Notice my use of quotes...

    Now do a search that nomenclature asking if it can convert to DHT...

    Since I already did to check my facts I will save you the time... Quoted from the Iron Mag write up on their 1-Andro product.

    "The pro-hormone 1-Androsterone (aka 1-Androstene-3b-ol, 17-one) the main ingredient in 1-Andro Rx converts to 1-testosterone and you will experience similar results that were seen with 1-AD and M1T before they were banned. 1-Androsterone does NOT convert to estrogen or DHT and is not liver toxic."

    Or for further reference you can go read the Study put out by AMS regarding their 1-Andro product here...
    http://www1.advancedmusclescience.co...rman_Study.pdf

    Upon reading you will see the exact same nomenclature as on the FINAFLEX bottle is listed to be also known as 1-Androstene-3b-ol, 17-one. So we can agree it is all talking about the same ingredient being listed as 1-Andro, and it clearly states in the Iron Mag 1-Andro write up above that 1-Andro does not convert to DHT.

    On a personal note: I was not ranting at you other than to tell you that you were not welcome to talk down to others in my thread. Not a rant at all.

    You asked in my thread no less why it would be a bad combination which I explained thoroughly. On top of which I praised your companies product and offered up uses for it that I felt was more appropriate. So not sure how it could have been a rant. Perhaps you just don't like being corrected...

    My apologies for not using quotations around the steroid profile portion of what I wrote. I had not realized the need when I clearly stated it was from a steroid profile, hence not claiming it as my own so plagiarism was never a possibility. If anything that could be considered a copy right infringement but those are not that same thing. I guess the situation here is similar to the Androsterone and 1-Androsterone confusion you seem to be having.

    Since you want to accuse me of ranting because I answered a question you posted in my thread with scientific backing there is no reason for me to be polite to you either.

    So I will simply say...
    Thank you for playing Know Your Prohormones! Unfortunately that answer is incorrect and we will have to send you home today without a prize...
    Is that a burning smell I am getting? Why yes Alex, it is. I'll refrain from any childish playground banter as some of us here are grown adults and if you would like to have a discussion about steroid profiles and cycle options, I welcome the chance to do so but not in Chris's thread as its not the purpose. Best of luck in prep Chris!!!!!
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    another rant....sigh

    #1: do not assume you can correct me chris..I posted info on androsterone, that is what the compound is
    you seem to want to split hairs, for whatever personal reasons and motivations you have - that is your choice
    for the record:
    henryV is well-known in the industry for his understanding of compounds..according to him on prohormoneDB:
    HenryV, a HIGHLY respected authority on prohromones offers this: 3-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17-one 100mg = 1-androsterone/1a-STERONE
    I will not continue with your childish banter here

    #2: you continue to personally attack me, characterizing my posting as "disparaging" when that is simply not the case..in fact, that comment was not even directed to you in any way shape or form quite obviously, but for some reason you felt the need to play "white knight" and insert yourself into the conversation
    why you think you can control what others say here on this forum, in your thread, is beyond me and quite mind-boggling
    stop characterizing my posts, pure and simple, and worry about yourself

    #3: your threats via PM and e-mail, are of no consequence to myself nor FINAFLEX..
    the company stands behind my decisions and communication here, and is in no way "harassment" as you continue to proclaim privately
    in fact: the owners knew that e-mail was coming to you, and wished to be cc'd on it; that is sole I reason I did so, not in an attempt to be "sneaky" or "underhanded" as you claim


    whatever your issues bud, take care of them and get them rectified..it is sad to see you continue to stoop to such levels

    we have wished you the best, thanked you for your efforts on behalf of our company, and have not been aggressive toward you at any time
    try to get a handle on your own personal angst here, it does not make you look good


    best
    FINAFLEX Product Educator
    visit our website at finaflex.com
    contact me at snagency@finaflex.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Absolutely my thinking and experience from using Stano to combat lethargy before.

    It is not a bad combo for growth at all as 1-Test is highly anabolic but not the best combo if trying to combat lethargy since 1-Andro based products are not overly androgenic, and have been known to cause lethargy on their own.
    .

    Agreed. I go through the same thing so I am using the mirror more then only stepping on for check ins or when I look really lean and am often surprised by the numbers on the scale!


    Please do not come into my thread and disparage others or treat them as if they are inferior... Especially when your own understanding of this particular products appropriate use in this scenario is questionable considering 1-Andro based products are widely known to cause lethargy...


    Correct!!!!!


    Simply put 1-Andro/1-Alpha converts to 1-Testosterone which yes is a "derivative of DHT" but not highly androgenic in nature like DHT and should not be confused as such.

    In actuality, 1-Test is a very anabolic compound with lower androgenic properties, 1-Test has an anabolic/androgenic ratio of 200/100 which means milligram for milligram it is twice as anabolic as testosterone and equal to testosterone in androgenic action. The conversion rate of 1-Andro products are indeed high enough to increase anabolism however not the case for androgenic activity once shutdown of the HPTA system begins to occur and testosterone levels are lowered. This is why you see in many 1-Andro based product logs where the loggers experience both lethargy and a drop in libido once shut down begins.

    As much as I enjoy 1-Alpha, knowing this I would never recommend it as a testosterone base as it simply is not androgenic enough to be highly successful in that particular use at any reasonably assumed conversion rate. Although Androsterone products can convert to DHT, 1-Andro does not, it was modified so that it converts to the higher anabolic 1-Testosterone and is targeted toward growth. So if he was intending to fight lethargy with that combination it was a poor choice as it would compound the situation not aid in it.

    I myself have used 1-Alpha as a bridge between methyls not to regain that feel good feeling or combat lethargy but instead to increase anabolism. That way I did not lose any of the gains during the bridge. That is a more appropriate use of the product in any type of cycle supporting scenario, and one it actually shines in so long as HPTA recovery during the bridge is not part of the goal.

    Now DHT has an anabolic/androgenic ratio of 152/268 meaning milligram for milligram it is 1.5 times more anabolic than testosterone and 2.7 times more androgenic than testosterone and 1-Testosterone. However it has 3-5 times the affinity to the androgenic receptor in every tissue of the body except skeletal muscle, making it ideal to combat sexual hormone based sides such as lethargy, gyno, loss of libido and increases neurological performance. In this scenario a product that converts to DHT is far superior for battling the side effects of shut down. Even with a similar conversion rate to 1-Andro based products DHT is roughly 3 times more potent on the androgenic side of things. However admittedly less anabolic simply in the fact most of it will bind to an AR outside of the skeletal muscle.

    This is a huge part of the reason it was common practice to have people run EPI-V during the latter parts of the cycles, not only to finish off by cutting up but because it was beneficial to fight the sides of shutdown since it did convert to DHT.

    For a little interesting reading here is a steroid profile on DHT Quoted from a Steroid Profile post on another forum...
    "The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active androgen is actually dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

    5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

    This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, dihydrotestosterone is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

    A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

    Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

    Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

    So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

    It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress – not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

    I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

    Anti–Estrogen effects of DHT

    One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

    How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

    Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

    Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens)."


    Nothing wrong with sticking with what works for you, heck it is one of the best ways to go.

    Okay on to more important things, good things are happening to my physique and I like it. I am leaning up while becoming fuller at the same time. Hard not to get excited about where things are going at this point! I am leaner than last week and I am up in weight. All of this on 2100 calories a day with 2450 on my high carb days. The anabolics are doing way more than I expected at this point and I expect to be at or under 6% by 4 weeks out if things keep going at this pace.
    As always Man.. Your knowledge is impeccable. So glad you are such a good role model to these guys on the forum. Babe, you are still sexy and handsome to me.. Your body is da bomb..
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    Correct, the nomenclature posted above is 3-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17-one = 1-Andro just like it says in my post.

    The nomenclatures posted in the quoted reference used are not the same, and are not the same compound...

    Copied from quote.
    3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one (Androsterone)
    3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one (aka Androsterone)

    I split hairs well because developing prohormones is a matter of splitting hairs or even smaller as in molecular bonds. They start off with an Androsterone base and add or remove molecules and with each minor modification they change the properties of the initial compound.

    Now on to the regular programming...

    Kicking much ass in prep and loving the look.

    Thanks Admin!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Olympus Labs Rep - check us out at Olympus-Labs.com
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/252598-kleen-olympus-labs.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    No I meant for lethargy, I thought it was the 1-alpa but somebody mentioned dmz gave them lethargy so I know 1-test did back in the day. My thinking was that the combination was what did it for me. I am experiencing no water retention whatsoever now. I think before it must have been left over from some of the eating I did on my birthday a week before when I experienced with the DMZ. Yes and I don't pretend to have a good understanding of steroids.
    Dude, you still look awesome!! Keep up the great work you are doing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    Chris, awesome detail in here as always. Was just flipping back at your beginning pics and dude you are killing it. Matt has you dialed this far my friend keep this train rolling :-)

    Haven't seen the mrs on here in a long while :-)
    Hey there bean, I am here, just not to much to post these days. I got bored today at work, and decided to check in on his log to see how he is doing. And as always... He is just brilliant when it comes to all of this stuff. I love having my own personal trainer.. But lately, I have mostly been standing behind the man and being his biggest supporter for his competition. I have been in and out of the gym, but haven't done a log since I was taking FINAFLEX's PX Black, which I absolutely love. I am still taking it, and still seeing great results.
    How have you been doing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleensQueen View Post

    As always Man.. Your knowledge is impeccable. So glad you are such a good role model to these guys on the forum. Babe, you are still sexy and handsome to me.. Your body is da bomb..
    Look who came by :-). Glad to see you In here
    Independent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    Everyone better relax. If you have a beef, keep it off here.
    Beef, it's what's for dinner!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    Look who came by :-). Glad to see you In here
    I do what I can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post

    Beef, it's what's for dinner!
    And breakfast and lunch :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by KleensQueen View Post

    I do what I can.
    Always good to see you on here
    Independent
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleensQueen View Post
    Hey there bean, I am here, just not to much to post these days. I got bored today at work, and decided to check in on his log to see how he is doing. And as always... He is just brilliant when it comes to all of this stuff. I love having my own personal trainer.. But lately, I have mostly been standing behind the man and being his biggest supporter for his competition. I have been in and out of the gym, but haven't done a log since I was taking FINAFLEX's PX Black, which I absolutely love. I am still taking it, and still seeing great results.
    How have you been doing?
    That's right she is keeping me pushing and helping me out as much as she can.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    Beef, it's what's for dinner!
    Yeah Buddy!
    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    And breakfast and lunch :-)



    Always good to see you on here
    Amen, I love beef, well the food that is...
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Olympus Labs Rep - check us out at Olympus-Labs.com
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/252598-kleen-olympus-labs.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post

    Amen, I love beef, well the food that is...
    The wife is in... so I will refrain. Hi, Mrs Kleen!
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ifeblood View Post
    The wife is in... so I will refrain. Hi, Mrs Kleen!
    Hey there 1ife, refrain from what?? I can use some humor. I am in useless mode at work, and completely bored with facebook, so... onto AM i am..
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleensQueen View Post

    Hey there 1ife, refrain from what?? I can use some humor. I am in useless mode at work, and completely bored with facebook, so... onto AM i am..
    Oh I'm sure since you married Kleen you've probably got a GREAT sense of humor! :-P Love this guy btw... one cool cat!
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ifeblood View Post
    Oh I'm sure since you married Kleen you've probably got a GREAT sense of humor! :-P Love this guy btw... one cool cat!
    Yeah, I like him most days that end in y..
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    So you have a useless mode at work too huh?
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ifeblood View Post
    So you have a useless mode at work too huh?
    Yes, its Friday and, I am just not in the mood to deal with people. Much less work.. What about you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleensQueen View Post

    Yes, its Friday and, I am just not in the mood to deal with people. Much less work.. What about you?
    Oh man, I work in a car dealership and right now NOBODY'S buying anything. And since I'm the finance manager, I'm pretty useless until someone buys a car.
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ifeblood View Post
    Oh man, I work in a car dealership and right now NOBODY'S buying anything. And since I'm the finance manager, I'm pretty useless until someone buys a car.
    That sux, sorry to hear that. I run the office here, and I am just not in the mood to be here, I have plenty to do, I just dont feel like it. lol
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    MAN, THANKS FOR THE INPUT ON HOW TO CHANGE MY PIC!! LOL. UR AWESOME.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KleensQueen View Post

    That sux, sorry to hear that. I run the office here, and I am just not in the mood to be here, I have plenty to do, I just dont feel like it. lol
    That would be NICE! Sometimes I have NO interest in talking to people and those are usually the days we're busiest. On those days I usually just hide out in my office all grumbly until a customer comes back then it's smiling, happy-go-lucky until I can get them signed out and outta my office. And believe me when I say... we get ALL kinds in here.
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    SHAZAAM! My woman is hot! Love the new avi baby!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Olympus Labs Rep - check us out at Olympus-Labs.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    SHAZAAM! My woman is hot! Love the new avi baby!
    She may be hot but you are SEXAY!
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    Speaking of which, when the hell we gonna get to see more noodz?!
    Where it all started

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/35-older/217572-one-can-never.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ifeblood View Post
    She may be hot but you are SEXAY!
    Damn Straight... well maybe not that straight...
    Quote Originally Posted by 1ifeblood View Post
    Speaking of which, when the hell we gonna get to see more noodz?!
    I am trying to wait for Monday, I know that will be like what 10 days since my last noodz!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Olympus Labs Rep - check us out at Olympus-Labs.com
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/252598-kleen-olympus-labs.html
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