BPS' What's improved with the upcoming DHEA transdermal

MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
There are some questions regarding what type of improvements will be coming with our upcoming new and improved DHEA Transdermal Product. I wanted to post up a thread where we could ask questions to BPS himself. Perhaps make suggestions and or even have some guessing games that MAY even end up with some type of fun contest if BPS wants to do something like that.

Lets keep this thread positive and only about the new and upcoming product.

BPS since even us reps are excited and anticipating what the new improvements are going to be. I would love to make a suggestion if the new formulation is not set in stone. I would love to see some DIM or IC3 added into the product for estrogen modulation. We all know DHEA converts at a pretty high rate and chrysine is a decent AI but often times can not keep the excess water off. I don't see a need to crush Estro with a high dose of AI but something like DIM or IC3 would be a great addition to combat any negative estrogen sides while enforcing some of the positive effects of estrogen. It could also help aid in preventing shut down at higher doses, which we all know everyone runs DHEA product higher than the recommended doses.
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Yeah, I think it would be great in there or did you mean the thread?
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Maybe a low dose Epiandrosterone. That would increase it's anabolic potential, fat loss properties, it's neurotransmitter stimulation, and prevent all estrogen concerns.

DHT is a powerfull A.I.

Anyone know the oral to transdermal dose equivalency?

Lastly, don't drop the pregnenolone. It is pivitol to the formula.
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Maybe a low dose Epiandrosterone. That would increase it's anabolic potential, fat loss properties, it's neurotransmitter stimulation, and prevent all estrogen concerns.

DHT is a powerfull A.I.

Anyone know the oral to transdermal dose equivalency?

Lastly, don't drop the pregnenolone. It is pivitol to the formula.
I agree that pregnenolone is a good part of the formula. However I have to disagree with the statement that DHT is a powerfull A.I.

DHT is not an AI at all. It can counteract some of the effects of Estrogen especially in breast tissue but it is a product of the aromatase process. The acronym AI means Aromatase Inhibitor naturally occuring DHT is one of the 2 hormones created when testosterone or DHEA is aromatized some is converted to DHT and some of it converted to Estrogen.

Part of the reason steroidial DHT is beneficial at minimizing or reducing gyno is that when you begin to shut down from the higher DHT levels there is less testosterone and therefor less estrogen due to less aromatization. An estrogen starved mammary gland will shrink, and if starved of estrogen long enough some of the cells can even die.
 
antknee02

antknee02

Member
Awards
0
Maybe a low dose Epiandrosterone. That would increase it's anabolic potential, fat loss properties, it's neurotransmitter stimulation, and prevent all estrogen concerns.

DHT is a strong AI Anyone know the oral to transdermal dose equivalency?

Lastly, don't drop the pregnenolone. It is pivitol to the formula.

this sounds good re: more anabolic if possible..


- had to edit 'strong' due to post count not being high enough for links
 
Austinmck17

Austinmck17

Member
Awards
0
I've read before that the metabolites of DHT can act on the aromatase enzyme and inhibit it.
It also acts on the hypothalamus and decreases the secretion of gonadotropins which are needed for estrogen production.

I would opt for a pro to DHT than an AI since it acts similar and has added benefits.What about another ingredient that is ergogenic + an AI?

I definitely like the idea of DIM or resveratol.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
MrKleen,

I'm not here to argue. I would like to see this thread flourish as it should. However, DHT is a steroidal A.I. known to have direct antagonistic effects at the estrogen receptor, while also having anti-aromatase properties to block estrogen conversion from testosterone.
 
mattikus

mattikus

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I like dhea + Pregnenolone, and if possible in the same formula some
Estrogen modulation (DIM or I3C was a great suggestion by Kleen) am a huge fan of formestane
Cortisol modulation (11-keto would be awesome) or 11-oxo, 7-oxo
hmmm...
and anything else that can contribute to health. Maybe something in the cognitive dept?
 
andrew732

andrew732

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I also feel androsterone would be a nice additive to the Derma formula as they have synergestic effects when combined.
 
Resolve

Resolve

The BPS Rep
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I like dhea + Pregnenolone, and if possible in the same formula some
Estrogen modulation (DIM or I3C was a great suggestion by Kleen) am a huge fan of formestane
Cortisol modulation (11-keto would be awesome) or 11-oxo, 7-oxo
hmmm...
and anything else that can contribute to health. Maybe something in the cognitive dept?
As a huge fan of formestane, have you checked out formasurge yet? http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/bulk-performance-solutions/new-formasurge-120-servings.html
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
I've read before that the metabolites of DHT can act on the aromatase enzyme and inhibit it.
It also acts on the hypothalamus and decreases the secretion of gonadotropins which are needed for estrogen production.


I would opt for a pro to DHT than an AI since it acts similar and has added benefits.What about another ingredient that is ergogenic + an AI?

I definitely like the idea of DIM or resveratol.
I wonder if this is part of a part of the negative feedback loop. Since DHT is a product of the aromatization process perhaps a high count of DHT signals the body too much aromatization is gong on thereby lowering the production of the enzyme itself? Can you refer me to a specific study or something so I can look at what you have been reading?

DHT / Andro would be a sexy addition just not sure how cost effective it would be considering the low cost of the new product that has been mentioned.
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
MrKleen,

I'm not here to argue. I would like to see this thread flourish as it should. However, DHT is a steroidal A.I. known to have direct antagonistic effects at the estrogen receptor, while also having anti-aromatase properties to block estrogen conversion from testosterone.
Damn It Ape How dare you disagree with me! :booty:

Actually if find this level of conversation very interesting, and don't consider it argument at all. I am not that guy...

I may have to do a little more research on the subject. I knew that DHT was an AE, or anti-estrogen via competition at the receptor as I mentioned in my post. I was I more refering to it not being a suicide inhibitor. However I need to look at little more into the method in which it inhibits the aromatization process. Like I asked Austin above can you provide some of the studies you are getting your information from so I can go do a little more research? I mean I could sift through tons of studies but if you have read one and know about where you found it that would be more helpful.
 
Resolve

Resolve

The BPS Rep
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
DHT has a very low affinity for the estrogen receptor, it's specifically used in research for that reason. A classic paper demonstrating this is Kuiper et al, Endocrinology 1997. Because other androgens do interact with the AR and ER at appreciable affinities, DHT was used (in part) to identify AR-specific downstream effects. I'm using it in some nuclear receptor experiments right now for just that reason too.

As for it being an aromatase inhibitor, I've only given it a cursory look at this point, but can only find secondary and tertiary sources on that claim. Given it's poor binding to the ER, there are other compounds that would be far more efficient as an AI. As yet no actual research that I have come across supports that claim. If such research exists, please post it, as I'm not seeing it.
 
mattikus

mattikus

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Ape, Resolve, Kleen, I agree with all of yas. :D
And Resolve, yep on Formasurge at this very moment. It is a key part of my current plan and I would be in a different situation without it. Awesome and stronger than others I have used.
 
Austinmck17

Austinmck17

Member
Awards
0
I wonder if this is part of a part of the negative feedback loop. Since DHT is a product of the aromatization process perhaps a high count of DHT signals the body too much aromatization is gong on thereby lowering the production of the enzyme itself? Can you refer me to a specific study or something so I can look at what you have been reading?

DHT / Andro would be a sexy addition just not sure how cost effective it would be considering the low cost of the new product that has been mentioned.
I can't right now since I am on my phone and it isn't very easy. I like your thinking because that makes perfect sense to me.

It could be cost effective if the skin gives good conversion rates.

I can't wait to see what ingredients will be used
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
I can't right now since I am on my phone and it isn't very easy. I like your thinking because that makes perfect sense to me.

It could be cost effective if the skin gives good conversion rates.

I can't wait to see what ingredients will be used
Cool thanks will look forward to when you have a chance to post some thing up.
Resolve thanks for the input. I am definitely curious if there is some science I am unaware of. I like to think a have a little knowledge about stuff but don't consider myself a scholar by any means. Those of us who know you know that you are.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
I'm no expert either, and can't make heads or tails of most studies. My opinion on the epiandrosterone, cones from what I've been told by more knowledgeable heads. People who know their **** like Matt Porter.

I try to avoid bro science at all cost.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
DHT has a very low affinity for the estrogen receptor, it's specifically used in research for that reason. A classic paper demonstrating this is Kuiper et al, Endocrinology 1997. Because other androgens do interact with the AR and ER at appreciable affinities, DHT was used (in part) to identify AR-specific downstream effects. I'm using it in some nuclear receptor experiments right now for just that reason too.

As for it being an aromatase inhibitor, I've only given it a cursory look at this point, but can only find secondary and tertiary sources on that claim. Given it's poor binding to the ER, there are other compounds that would be far more efficient as an AI. As yet no actual research that I have come across supports that claim. If such research exists, please post it, as I'm not seeing it.
isn't there a huge difference between a anti-estrogen like letro, and a aromatase inhibitor like say formestane. other than their mode of action that is.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
as a side note....i know bps is not likely to put minoxidil in any of their transdermals, but adding a small amount to your transdermal solution will increase asbsorption by a noticeable amount.


-just thought i would pass this along, this has worked on every kind of transdermal i have put it in......
 

steppinRazor

Well-known member
Awards
0
please gels only.. not a fan of liquid transdermals.
 
mattikus

mattikus

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
as a side note....i know bps is not likely to put minoxidil in any of their transdermals, but adding a small amount to your transdermal solution will increase asbsorption by a noticeable amount.


-just thought i would pass this along, this has worked on every kind of transdermal i have put it in......
Didn't know that. Awesome.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
Didn't know that. Awesome.
it's not as effective as dmso, but you don't have the smell and other sides either...dmso is very potent stuff, imo...minoxidil will get the job done and is safe.
 
oufinny

oufinny

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
it's not as effective as dmso, but you don't have the smell and other sides either...dmso is very potent stuff, imo...minoxidil will get the job done and is safe.
That is a really good suggestion Tom. I had no idea that made a difference. DMSO is definitely not my favorite ingredient that is for sure.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
That is a really good suggestion Tom. I had no idea that made a difference. DMSO is definitely not my favorite ingredient that is for sure.
...

dr.d mentioned it in the old formestane thread a few years ago, i tried it and have been doing it every since...the difference is definately noticeable, at least to me!!! definately worth a shot...
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Straight from the horses mouth...well, sort of.
dht and its metabolite 5a-androstandione have been identified as having aromatase inhibition activity. they may act as receptor antagonists too, or post receptor modulators of estrogen gene expression
I'm going to take PA's word on this.

Now put some Epiandrosterone in this BPS.

4-DHEA+Epiandrosterone+Pregnalone for the win.
 
andrew732

andrew732

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
i always said that DHT is great stuff for you, the anti estrogen you can get LOL.
 
oufinny

oufinny

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
...

dr.d mentioned it in the old formestane thread a few years ago, i tried it and have been doing it every since...the difference is definately noticeable, at least to me!!! definately worth a shot...
Where do you get said additive?
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
Where do you get said additive?
lol....it is the active ingredient in rogaine!!! if you look in the clearance sections at drugstores and walmart you can find it marked down sometimes. i got a big bottle of generic minoxidil in the markdown section at krogers for $9. it lasted a very long time as not a whole lot is needed.
 
oufinny

oufinny

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
lol....it is the active ingredient in rogaine!!! if you look in the clearance sections at drugstores and walmart you can find it marked down sometimes. i got a big bottle of generic minoxidil in the markdown section at krogers for $9. it lasted a very long time as not a whole lot is needed.
So how much would I put in a bottle of FormaSurge Tom?
 
shanedoolie

shanedoolie

New member
Awards
0
Just a thought on a little something to add. L-carnitine. If im not mistaken it is an androgen receptor inhancer among other things. So the way I see it, the dhea that does actually convert to test will have more receptors to attatch to. I could be totally out in left field with this though.
 
oufinny

oufinny

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Just a thought on a little something to add. L-carnitine. If im not mistaken it is an androgen receptor inhancer among other things. So the way I see it, the dhea that does actually convert to test will have more receptors to attatch to. I could be totally out in left field with this though.
It depends on if it will make it through the skin and at what rate if it does. It is actually LCLT that is the one you want but yes, carnitine is an excellent suggestion!
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
It depends on if it will make it through the skin and at what rate if it does. It is actually LCLT that is the one you want but yes, carnitine is an excellent suggestion!
i have never heard of transdermal lclt? you would have to check the molecular weight to see if it is compatible with the formasurge carrier...usually hormonals like formestane need a different carrier than say a caffeine/yohimbine fatburner.
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
any hint on an eta?
I don't know of one.
That is a really good suggestion Tom. I had no idea that made a difference. DMSO is definitely not my favorite ingredient that is for sure.
Yeah some people break out in rashes from DMSO.

...

dr.d mentioned it in the old formestane thread a few years ago, i tried it and have been doing it every since...the difference is definately noticeable, at least to me!!! definately worth a shot...
Interesting. I wonder what other effect it has doesn't it have an affinity to the AR receptors isn't that how it blocks DHT from the hair follicle? Although as low dosed as it would be and only localized I bet isn't too big a deal just curious.

Straight from the horses mouth...well, sort of.


I'm going to take PA's word on this.

Now put some Epiandrosterone in this BPS.

4-DHEA+Epiandrosterone+Pregnalone for the win.
Who is PA, Just playing. Now we are talking a different animal completely. However a sexy sounding one.

i have never heard of transdermal lclt? you would have to check the molecular weight to see if it is compatible with the formasurge carrier...usually hormonals like formestane need a different carrier than say a caffeine/yohimbine fatburner.
Interesting I wonder if this would work. I just use AI Sports LCLT bulk powder is a sweet deal.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
no, chris...minoxidil isn't the same as finerestide or whatever the anti-dht drug is called. it has no effect on hormones that i know of-actually it was a oral bp drug until they found that topically it grew hair, lol.
 
Resolve

Resolve

The BPS Rep
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
isn't there a huge difference between a anti-estrogen like letro, and a aromatase inhibitor like say formestane. other than their mode of action that is.
They're both aromatase inhibitors, but letro is reversible while formestane is steroidal and suicidal. Neither interact directly with the ER as part of their main MOA.

Straight from the horses mouth...well, sort of.


I'm going to take PA's word on this.

Now put some Epiandrosterone in this BPS.

4-DHEA+Epiandrosterone+Pregnalone for the win.
Considering I still haven't seen any actual data on the matter, I take such scientific claims with a grain of salt. It's unsupported claims that lead to bro-science. :)
 
Resolve

Resolve

The BPS Rep
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
i have never heard of transdermal lclt? you would have to check the molecular weight to see if it is compatible with the formasurge carrier...usually hormonals like formestane need a different carrier than say a caffeine/yohimbine fatburner.
LCLT, from what I can find, has a MW of 472, which is a bit too big for TD. Sucks, this would be awesome!
 
MrKleen73

MrKleen73

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
LCLT, from what I can find, has a MW of 472, which is a bit too big for TD. Sucks, this would be awesome!
I had a feeling that would unfortunately be the case.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
LCLT, from what I can find, has a MW of 472, which is a bit too big for TD. Sucks, this would be awesome!
it would of been cool and convenient to include lclt in a transdermal, but not really sure it would have improved results significantly over oral anyways??? at one time i thought about including divaniil in a td, but would have to experiment to see if it improved results significantly over oral...
 
AZMIDLYF

AZMIDLYF

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Ursolic Acid

Interestingly, Ursolic acid has also been shown to be an effective blocker of the enzyme aromatase, so it has the potential to control estrogen production and maximize testosterone release
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
L-dopa
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Ursolic AcidInterestingly, Ursolic acid has also been shown to be an effective blocker of the enzyme aromatase, so it has the potential to control estrogen production and maximize testosterone release
Topical Urso would be an interesting addition for sure.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
Ursolic Acid

Interestingly, Ursolic acid has also been shown to be an effective blocker of the enzyme aromatase, so it has the potential to control estrogen production and maximize testosterone release

pa thinks so, lol.
 
tallguy34

tallguy34

Member
Awards
0
macuna is another one i have thought of....hell, why not make a topical endosurge?
Hmm... Actually, that's a pretty good idea of it could be done! Resolve, Mr Biology Man, what says you on this idea?
 

Similar threads


Top