BPS' What's improved with the upcoming DHEA transdermal

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  1. Sourdough, PM me a link to the actual study, I can't get on PHF in my current location.
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  2. Kleen- the study I'm writing from on the other pages was 50mg ed in a transdermal application. Basically what is used in the sports supplements brought to market.

    Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf
    It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    Kleen- the study I'm writing from on the other pages was 50mg ed in a transdermal application. Basically what is used in the sports supplements brought to market.

    Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf
    It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.
    5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.
    Bulk Performance Solutions
    --No Proprietary Blends, All Performance--

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  4. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.
    Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).

  5. Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.
    Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve

    5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.
    You didn't read very much huh?

    Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)

    Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?

    Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.

    What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?

    Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?

    Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?

    And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.

    Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
    Traps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.
    Body Performance Solutions
    Home: http://bpsnutrition.net/
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce

    Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
    concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  9. Quote Originally Posted by metroba

    Traps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.
    incorrect
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.
    this is great and ideal for immediate conversion of course, but systematic conversions occur constantly also....

    And with dhea, there are plenty of points along the conversion process where either the metabolites itself can interact with the er and/or can still convert directly to an estrogen.....

    Really the estrogenic worries of dhea are not solely the product of estrogen itself.
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  11. Good discussion going, keep it coming.
    EvoMuse Products Rep

    PM me with any questions!

  12. I love the conversation that is going on. Keep in mind we are not duplicating the product at all. We are making changes that have not been released yet. But for fun:

    Physiol Res. 2000;49(6):685-93.
    Effects of transdermal application of DHEA on the levels of steroids, gonadotropins and lipids in men.
    Sulcová J, Hill M, Hampl R, Masek Z, Novácek A, Ceska R, Stárka L.
    Source

    Institute of Endocrinology, AREKO, Ltd., First Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic. [email protected]
    Abstract

    In order to ascertain the kinetics of absorption and metabolism of transdermally administered dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), 10 men 29-72 years old (mean 52.4+/-14.5) received 50 mg DHEA/day in a gel applied onto the skin of the abdomen for 5 consecutive days. The objective was to establish the extent to which DHEA influences the levels of gonadotropins, sex hormone-binding globulin and lipids. It was found that DHEA is well absorbed and rapidly metabolized to its sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, and consequently to testosterone and estradiol. The DHEA levels that markedly increased after the first doses gradually declined already during the application, and this decline proceeded even after it was discontinued, reaching levels significantly lower than the original ones. On the other hand, the levels of DHEA metabolites (with the exception of DHEAS) rose during the application and reached values significantly higher than the basal ones within 5 weeks. This effect was accompanied by significantly decreased levels of LH. The serum levels of lipids, namely of cholesterol (both HDL and LDL cholesterol), triglycerides, apolipoproteins A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) after DHEA application were not changed significantly, and the atherogenic index (AI) remained unaltered. However, some correlations between hormones and lipids were found. Negative correlations concerned the following indices: DHEA/Lp(a); DHEAS/cholesterol; DHEA, DHEAS, testosterone/TG; testosterone/AI. On the other hand, LH, FSH/cholesterol, FSH, SHBG/LDL cholesterol, FSH/Apo B, Lp(a) correlated positively. It can be concluded that transdermal short-time application of DHEA results in a decrease of endogenous DHEA after finishing the treatment, with a parallel marked increase in the levels of sex hormones. Using this application protocol, exogenous DHEA neither altered the lipid spectrum, nor did it influence the atherogenic index.

    PMID:
    11252535
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

  13. Quote Originally Posted by BulkPerf
    I love the conversation that is going on. Keep in mind we are not duplicating the product at all. We are making changes that have not been released yet. But for fun:
    that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?

    The paragraph under table one goes into detail as to where these hormone levels reside 5 weeks out and the table 2 shows a direct comparison of levels at day 0, 4(mid way), 6(end) and 42(post administration ramifications) where test is increased 50% and estrogen 300%, LH is half of what it was and endogenous dhea is near non existent to further replenish these hormones...

    So there better be a stronger ai then chrysin included(does its mw even allow viable td application?) And it better have a minimum of a 5 week halflife or sold in a combo with a standalone ai(+daa?) to be taken through pct and beyond...
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?

    The paragraph under table one goes into detail as to where these hormone levels reside 5 weeks out and the table 2 shows a direct comparison of levels at day 0, 4(mid way), 6(end) and 42(post administration ramifications) where test is increased 50% and estrogen 300%, LH is half of what it was and endogenous dhea is near non existent to further replenish these hormones...

    So there better be a stronger ai then chrysin included(does its mw even allow viable td application?) And it better have a minimum of a 5 week halflife or sold in a combo with a standalone ai(+daa?) to be taken through pct and beyond...

    Like I said it was just for fun. When we release the ingredients you will have a much better idea rather then Speculation.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by BulkPerf

    Like I said it was just for fun. When we release the ingredients you will have a much better idea rather then Speculation.
    Ok...
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  16. Quote Originally Posted by flightposite View Post
    Do not want!
    lol....fail.
    GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY!!!

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males
    Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?

    Now I think we need to stop referring to "dermacrine" as a "test base." It gets half the people confused on what it actually is and the other halfs panties all in a bunch. At best DHEA has a conversion rate of like 1% to Testosterone. It's used to midigate side effects such as lethargy and libido loss, similar to testosterone. Besides it converts to other hormones; androstenediol and androstenedione.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Ape McGrapes
    Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?

    Now I think we need to stop referring to "dermacrine" as a "test base." It gets half the people confused on what it actually is and the other halfs panties all in a bunch. At best DHEA has a conversion rate of like 1% to Testosterone. It's used to midigate side effects such as lethargy and libido loss, similar to testosterone. Besides it converts to other hormones; androstenediol and androstenedione.
    Because there is Market for it and money to be made legally under the guise of being a legit ph in a market that's about to be non-existent?

    Idk, but you can see his personal posts as recent as a year ago(less actually) stating it's not a wise choice for use by men.

    I completely agree with the second part of your post.
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  19. to me science is only a step in the evolutionary ladder ahead of broscience...look at prescription medicine, you get 1 script and need 3 more to counter the side effects.

    ok, back on track...for as long as i have been on this and other forums the debate over dhea has been ongoing. well here is my take on it: as many people who have supplemented with dhea [both oral and topical] surely some of them have had blood tests done...can you show me any posts where anyone has attributed dhea to getting bad results from blood tests????

    science to me is a whole lot of conjecture....the body is way too complicated to predict exactly how it will respond- case in point look at how many drugs big pharma invests in, only to have them rejected either because they didn't do what scientists thought they would, or because the sides were worse than the benefits.

    in closing, if you read the threads people loved dermacrine and were excited when bps brought it back, there is a lot to be said by all of the repeat users, at least in my opinion.
    GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY!!!

  20. I notice a big improvement in my general well being when using it. Of course my age could be dictating that.
    Always open light. It’s not what you open with, it’s what you finish with. Louie Simmons

  21. Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    I notice a big improvement in my general well being when using it. Of course my age could be dictating that.
    you ever had a blood test while using it? i used it often when i was on test cyp and my estrogen was always in normal range.
    GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY!!!

  22. A lot of it comes from the pregnenolone. Especially the neurostimulating effects. Dermacrine makes me feel so good.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
    There are hormones that lead to better conversion rates in the skin on that part of the body. I don't know the exact science but I know PP posted it a while back and the science is sound. The same is recommended for andro-gel users by Endo's all over the US; my father's being one of them. I am sure that there is a study that covers this in detail but I have not seen a post with it in a long time now.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    You didn't read very much huh?

    Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)

    Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?

    Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.

    What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?

    Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?

    Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?

    And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.

    Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
    We don't know the ingredient list, you may very well be right. You also avoided my point, administration location of topical DHEA has a huge impact on the conversion of multiple hormones that were all mentioned in the study; noteworthy being DHEAS, DHT, Testosterone and Estrogen. Please note I like the debate, its good to have these discussions. I like your passion, too many lack it or are scared to show it. Reps coming your way.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).

  25. This has really been a great conversation so far. I am enjoying it and can not wait until this is released to see what is coming!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
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