BPS' What's improved with the upcoming DHEA transdermal

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    I notice a big improvement in my general well being when using it. Of course my age could be dictating that.
    you ever had a blood test while using it? i used it often when i was on test cyp and my estrogen was always in normal range.
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    A lot of it comes from the pregnenolone. Especially the neurostimulating effects. Dermacrine makes me feel so good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
    There are hormones that lead to better conversion rates in the skin on that part of the body. I don't know the exact science but I know PP posted it a while back and the science is sound. The same is recommended for andro-gel users by Endo's all over the US; my father's being one of them. I am sure that there is a study that covers this in detail but I have not seen a post with it in a long time now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    You didn't read very much huh?

    Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)

    Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?

    Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.

    What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?

    Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?

    Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?

    And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.

    Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
    We don't know the ingredient list, you may very well be right. You also avoided my point, administration location of topical DHEA has a huge impact on the conversion of multiple hormones that were all mentioned in the study; noteworthy being DHEAS, DHT, Testosterone and Estrogen. Please note I like the debate, its good to have these discussions. I like your passion, too many lack it or are scared to show it. Reps coming your way.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    This has really been a great conversation so far. I am enjoying it and can not wait until this is released to see what is coming!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    you ever had a blood test while using it? i used it often when i was on test cyp and my estrogen was always in normal range.
    Never while using it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    Never while using it.
    I remember some threads a while back about how Dermacrine was a huge help to guys on TRT. All the reasoning escapes me though, it was years ago.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny

    I remember some threads a while back about how Dermacrine was a huge help to guys on TRT. All the reasoning escapes me though, it was years ago.
    You'll see in one of my first posts that this was one of the only viable groups of users I'd suggest to use a dhea product.

    Obviously those on trt are shutdown. That doesn't just mean a lack of endogenous testosterone but many of the upstream hormones that lead to it and their other varied end product pathways.

    When lacking in dhea you'll miss out on lots of thyroid supporting hormones, cortisol regulating properties, a few of the other intrinsic properties attributed to dhea itself and its metabolites along the way... all these necessary for normal healthy functioning adults.

    So again, as first mentioned, anyone in trt or who has another inherent lack in dhea could utilize such a supplement with tons of benefits...

    The problem comes when your not naturally lacking in these compounds, namely dhea or estrogen, and thinking it's going to serve you well as a viable test base to any cycle or ran as a standalone cycle... it just won't likely end well or at least not you thought it was, regardless of how you "feel"....

    Personally, i naturally convert dhea at a very high rate to its thyroid boosting metabolites.... not necessarily a good thing... and i have to supplement with an ai when taking anything that is susceptible to aromatase or i have to worry bout flaring up my gyno.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny

    You also avoided my point, administration location of topical DHEA has a huge impact on the conversion of multiple hormones that were all mentioned in the study; noteworthy being DHEAS, DHT, Testosterone and Estrogen. Please note I like the debate, its good to have these discussions. I like your passion, too many lack it or are scared to show it. Reps coming your way.
    oh, i didn't address that point directly cause i don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying in regards to application sites dictating to a great measure the immediate outcome of the product being administered...... that is with most hormones like androstenedione or test that could benefit or suffer from specific site administration....

    But in response to another post i kind of made my true feelings on this subject made...
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    this is great and ideal for immediate conversion of course, but systematic conversions occur constantly also....

    And with dhea, there are plenty of points along the conversion process where either the metabolites itself can interact with the er and/or can still convert directly to an estrogen.....

    Really the estrogenic worries of dhea are not solely the product of estrogen itself.
    let me expound using the previously quoted study as backing to what i am about to suggest...

    First we are talking about dhea here. It is a compound that has to go through MULTIPLE conversions to become any of the hormones mentioned above with the exception of one... dheas...

    The wonderful thing shown in this study is the multiple blood draws so early on in a transdermal dhea administration, application site aside, which show that really the ONLY thing occurring upon immediate administration of dhea through the dermis is the conversion of dhea->dheas...

    Now considering you do know as much as i do about application sites, obvious from your posts, then in this test specifically it would be obviously assumed that if the enzymes in the immediate dermis has any bearing on the immediate conversion process then we should see an inherent rise in estrogen (for any one else reading, while the shoulders, traps, upper back and upper chest hold more enzymes for beneficial conversions, the stomach, love handles region, lower back and lower chest aka typical fat bearing/easy gain areas on men hold more aromatase enzymes)... the thing is we don't. In fact as shown in table one, the rise in estrogen and test across six straight days of application in 10men of varying age with similar doses of dhea to what we use in sports applications, are negligent(even without a co-administered AI)... if application site when administering dhea[specifically] had such great bearing on the results it would have shown here but all we see is immediate rise in dheas levels.

    The fact is a majority of the conversions that effect dhea and its far downstream metabolites (test, dht, estrogen) and to a lesser degree even its one step conversions (androstenedione, androstenediol, 7 keto), occur over a period of time through systematic conversions and interactions with enzymes located elsewhere other then the dermis itself. This is apparent considering the majority of rise, in these levels of hormones mentioned, occur AFTER cessation, across a5 week period from systematic conversions since this was a blood draw and not dermal samples.

    I'm not misrepresenting any of the info provided in this study, at a glance this study seems to not provide much info on dhea when administered in td fashion especially considering the supposed cheques and balances that many companies try to include in their sports supplements.... but when you set aside your immediate assumptions as to what SHOULD happen, read the study as to what actually happens then revert and apply that to your existing knowledge you realize the many flaws in such a sports supplement, the gaps that are left when cheques and balances don't continue typically for weeks after administration and that typical site specific prejudice doesn't seem to hold any bearing in this situation... then you may find yourself coming to the same conclusions i have.

    Let's hope BPS has taken all of this into consideration and that the final product will represent a much more complete sports application that previous developers failed to achieve yet still retain the inherent beneficial qualities as a health supplement to the limited market in need of such basic supplementation... it will tough to do both honestly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    You didn't read very much huh?

    Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)

    Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?

    Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.

    What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?

    Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?

    Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?

    And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.

    Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
    Wow, mountain of text for a lot of speculationi. Of course suppression occurs, your introducing exogenous hormones - where you expecting the body to not adjust to that?

    And read beyond page 2? I did. Table 1, which clearly states "NS" (non-significant) changes in estrogen levels is on page 3. Figure 2 is on page 5.

    And if you're concerned over E levels rising after DHEA usage, like figure 2 shows, well that's exactly what PCT is for. Of course there are going to be endocrinological shifts after you cease using a hormone. Controlling Estrogen rebound is why AIs are part of PCT - this isn't anything new or unique to DHEA.

    Furthermore, if you're still concerned over on cycle E conversion (which this paper states is non-significant), we have this awesome product called Formasurge designed for just that purpose.

    Let's look at estrogen in the figures:

    Fig1. Shift in Estradiol is insignificant for the sample (that 'NS' again), with only a 45 year old and a 72 year old showing concentration changes of more than ~0.1nM. In fact, E levels dropped (though insignificantly) for 2 55yos and a 69yo.

    Fig2. Significant shift in average E after cessation of treatment, due to lack of PCT as we've addressed. On cycle E change looks about to be maybe from ~0.07nm to ~0.12nm, incredibly small and only the initial and final concentrations are stated to be significant from what I can see. Look at the size of those error bars! That one 45 year-old from fig 1 is really shifting the stats here. That drop in luteinizing hormone? Probably due to the increase in test post treatment. Again, PCT would moderate that.

    Fig3. Lipids stay stable, yahoo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    Wow, mountain of text for a lot of speculationi. Of course suppression occurs, your introducing exogenous hormones - where you expecting the body to not adjust to that?

    And read beyond page 2? I did. Table 1, which clearly states "NS" (non-significant) changes in estrogen levels is on page 3. Figure 2 is on page 5.

    And if you're concerned over E levels rising after DHEA usage, like figure 2 shows, well that's exactly what PCT is for. Of course there are going to be endocrinological shifts after you cease using a hormone. Controlling Estrogen rebound is why AIs are part of PCT - this isn't anything new or unique to DHEA.

    Furthermore, if you're still concerned over on cycle E conversion (which this paper states is non-significant), we have this awesome product called Formasurge designed for just that purpose.

    Let's look at estrogen in the figures:

    Fig1. Shift in Estradiol is insignificant for the sample (that 'NS' again), with only a 45 year old and a 72 year old showing concentration changes of more than ~0.1nM. In fact, E levels dropped (though insignificantly) for 2 55yos and a 69yo.

    Fig2. Significant shift in average E after cessation of treatment, due to lack of PCT as we've addressed. On cycle E change looks about to be maybe from ~0.07nm to ~0.12nm, incredibly small and only the initial and final concentrations are stated to be significant from what I can see. Look at the size of those error bars! That one 45 year-old from fig 1 is really shifting the stats here. That drop in luteinizing hormone? Probably due to the increase in test post treatment. Again, PCT would moderate that.

    Fig3. Lipids stay stable, yahoo.
    Me thinks that you may have Resolve'd many of the issues he is addressing. PUN intended!

    I was beginning to wonder if the normal practice of a PCT was not being considered in his statements myself. I know many people argue that "we" the supplement companies recommend PCT just to make money and especially with regard to something like Dermacrine.

    As with any other hormonal product when you run it there is a need to cycle it, and have a post cycle regimen. I think the only real question should be in that case whether or not the person would need to include a SERM to restore HPTA function more quickly with out causing a cascade of catabolic hormonal reactions.

    SD, I would agree with you that running any hormonal product at super-physiological levels and not taking the responsible approach by using things that alleviate the sides you create by enhancing the anabolic hormones is a bad thing. However an AI or Estrogen modulator on cycle and an AI during pct would alleviate all of these.
    I don't think that anyone enters into hormonal supplementation should do so without proper research. However that is not the supplement companies responsibility to ensure the research has been done. Much less that the conclusions drawn from that research will result in the person making the correct decisions. I can not tell you how often I hear, but do I really need to do a PCT? Sometimes these people are talking about running DMZ or Superdrol...

    I would be curious if you have some literature from a test where an AI, slowed aromatization, and Pregnenolon was included to help balance the rest of the hormones out? Would that not by limiting aromatization enzyme availability systematically lower Estrogen conversion and increase conversion into androgens since the conversion process would not be limited there and only at the systemic level regarding aromatization to estrogen?

    Also people calling the Dermacrine a test base are typically feeling the positive effects of 2 things... 1 the pregnenolone which levels lower on cycle, and 2 the conversion of DHEA to healthy levels of estrogen that typically are low on cycles that do not include aromatizing steroidal compounds. Like, EPI, SD, and many others which are known to drop libido and energy which are signs of extremely low estrogen?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    You didn't read very much huh?

    Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)

    Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?

    Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.

    What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?

    Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?

    Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?

    And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.

    Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
    PP has a 4-DHEA product...
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    Quote Originally Posted by southsideguy

    PP has a 4-DHEA product...
    For a ridiculous price and not in a transdermal application which is actually much cheaper to make then their special liquavade delivery systems....

    We need an option other then theirs and ams cyclo tabs... transdermal beats both of these imo and again it's pretty cheap to even develops a great carrier.
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    Resolve/kleen-

    i do think many issues can be avoided if a strong enough ai is used throughout and into pct. But this still is something to look at and cause you to think... also the effects will be significantly compounded when taken over a 30 day course AND the fact that dhea and 5-androstenedione both can inherently interact with the er and cause problems unavoidable through an ai administration.

    I just think that so much more can be done then throwing plain dhea into a td solution(which costs less then 10 dollars per 8oz bottle for ME to do, it's gotta be insanely cheap for mass production) and adding an ai....

    I know this is supposed to be something new so maybe my worries don't even apply. But I'm still going to make them known to try to help perpetuate a better market with viable options for a legal test base...or at least not just another dhea hashed concoction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    For a ridiculous price and not in a transdermal application which is actually much cheaper to make then their special liquavade delivery systems....

    We need an option other then theirs and ams cyclo tabs... transdermal beats both of these imo and again it's pretty cheap to even develops a great carrier.
    It's transdermal (AndroEnhance), but the price is a bit steep though.

    I purchased 3 tubes, they did mention that they were working to get the price down
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    Quote Originally Posted by southsideguy

    It's transdermal (AndroEnhance), but the price is a bit steep though.

    I purchased 3 tubes, they did mention that they were working to get the price down
    Hmmm... that's new. Guess it's what i get for leaving the boards for the last 5 months
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    Wooow... ridiculous as expected.... 129 bucks.

    Even worse it seems to be proprietary? AND is got 11oxo in it, listed in the ingredients BEFORE the 4dhea....

    If you know much about primordials carrier at all(they used to sell penetrate separate and i used it all the time for my powders) their carrier is all of 15-18 bucks at the retail level(obviously not their cost) and can hold at MAX 50mg a ml and even then it's pushing saturation levels.... Primordial would never push these saturation levels, they suggest no more then 30mg/ml typically... this means that they are splitting this volume between the 2 compounds contained... it's gonna take a TON of this cream to even get a viable dose and you'll likely run out of application area before you even get to that point.

    Some of this stuff makes me sick. 4 androstenediol powder used to go for less then a dollar a gram at times.... dhea now can be had in order still for even less... premade td creams can cost less then 10 bucks, real good ones for less then 20 and custom made one's are REAL CHEAP specially with dmso in the mix... the cost for this 4dhea powder can't possibly be so high to warrant this kind of markup to cover overhead and provide profit....

    I'll be stocking up on all these designers and fast before the next (last) ban rolls cause I'm not paying hundreds for dhea analogues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough
    Wooow... ridiculous as expected.... 129 bucks.

    Even worse it seems to be proprietary? AND is got 11oxo in it, listed in the ingredients BEFORE the 4dhea....

    If you know much about primordials carrier at all(they used to sell penetrate separate and i used it all the time for my powders) their carrier is all of 15-18 bucks at the retail level(obviously not their cost) and can hold at MAX 50mg a ml and even then it's pushing saturation levels.... Primordial would never push these saturation levels, they suggest no more then 30mg/ml typically... this means that they are splitting this volume between the 2 compounds contained... it's gonna take a TON of this cream to even get a viable dose and you'll likely run out of application area before you even get to that point.

    Some of this stuff makes me sick. 4 androstenediol powder used to go for less then a dollar a gram at times.... dhea now can be had in order still for even less... premade td creams can cost less then 10 bucks, real good ones for less then 20 and custom made one's are REAL CHEAP specially with dmso in the mix... the cost for this 4dhea powder can't possibly be so high to warrant this kind of markup to cover overhead and provide profit....

    I'll be stocking up on all these designers and fast before the next (last) ban rolls cause I'm not paying hundreds for dhea analogues.
    That's very good info Sourdough. I'll still be purchasing PP products; but extremely important information nonetheless.

    I've been shopping with Eric since 2006.(or 2005, can't remember)
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    Guys, I appreciate your input on PP products, but please keep in mind this is a thread regarding a BPS product. Let's not get derailed here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    Guys, I appreciate your input on PP products, but please keep in mind this is a thread regarding a BPS product. Let's not get derailed here.
    Yes, this. Back on topic.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    awesome info here-really liking this thread..if BPS actually improves on PP's derma AND the cost is reasonable, as a guy over 40, you'll have me for life, lol..
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    Quote Originally Posted by antknee02 View Post
    awesome info here-really liking this thread..if BPS actually improves on PP's derma AND the cost is reasonable, as a guy over 40, you'll have me for life, lol..
    Don't worry. We'll be gentle.

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    Just give us 8 weeks of product. DHEA is dirt cheap as SD has said. Unless your adding in other significant ingredients, that would warant the price.
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    None of us have seen the new formula yet, but from what I understand, there will be some 'additions'.
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    Umm yea so where the hell is it? Why can't I find one dermacrine product anywhere?
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    When will the ingredients of the BPS product be released? I'm interested.
    Everything I say is fictional and for entertainment purposes only. Do not ask me for sources. I dont have any.
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    I agree, back on track. PP is a well respected company and we don't want any negative talk about them in here.

    SourDough, this new product will be better than you expect because BPS is formulating it. Certainly BPS liked the Dermacrine which is why they licensed the use of it. However BPS decided to come out with something that the owners of BPS feel is much improved. BPS does not put out undue hype on their products they put science to the test and come out with Performance Solutions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape McGrapes View Post
    Just give us 8 weeks of product. DHEA is dirt cheap as SD has said. Unless your adding in other significant ingredients, that would warant the price.
    There will be 60 servings. I can tell you that much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stankyleg View Post
    When will the ingredients of the BPS product be released? I'm interested.
    Very soon. Currently Vanillean is the product due to release first so this will be next.
    Quote Originally Posted by JD261985 View Post
    Umm yea so where the hell is it? Why can't I find one dermacrine product anywhere?
    Dermacrine is no longer licensed by BPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    None of us have seen the new formula yet, but from what I understand, there will be some 'additions'.
    It's not so much additions as it is a completely different formula.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape McGrapes View Post
    Just give us 8 weeks of product. DHEA is dirt cheap as SD has said. Unless your adding in other significant ingredients, that would warant the price.
    BPS products are notoriously well priced. Why they should supply 8 weeks in a bottle when use of 4-6 is what is recommended is beyond me. Unless trying to stick it to a competitor by making something as a slap in the face instead of intending to make profit off of it. Besides you have to consider other things in price like labeling, manufacturing, marketing costs, the need to make a profit. Not to mention you are paying for the convenience of not having to get the ingredients to make your own transdermal solution, and sourcing the raws, measuring it all out accurately and creating your own solution. That could take some time and annoyance. If I spend 2 hours of my time making a "$10.00 bottle of dhea transdermal" at my hourly wages I just spent a whole lot more than what is being charged for most products. Not to mention my personal time is more valuable to me than my work hours. You can't just add up the cost of raws and say this is all that the product is worth spending and anything else is overcharging for it. If that were the case then you would not be looking for a product but but instead creating your own. Certainly we all want a good deal but I think we can all agree that BPS keeps their prices more than reasonable for their products. They do not over inflate them nor under dose them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JD261985 View Post
    Umm yea so where the hell is it? Why can't I find one dermacrine product anywhere?
    Not sure where any Dermacrine is for sale. We no longer carry it in our line. This product is still in the process of creation / manufacturing.

    Quote Originally Posted by stankyleg View Post
    When will the ingredients of the BPS product be released? I'm interested.
    I don't think it will be too long from what I understand but BPS or Metroba can shed more light on that subject. Also Like us on Facebook BulkPerformanceSolutions-BPS lots of the trickle down information is posted out there before it hits the forums.
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    4 weeks falls short for most suppliments. Some don't even get in full swing till then. 6 weeks and you will need two bottles. Why should one have to buy 2 bottles?

    Dermacrine, though I loved it, was way over priced IMO. When PP switched cariers it jumped $10 in price. At almost $50 a bottle we should have gotten twice The servings. Instead we got 23 servings at the recomended dose. That's not even a 4 week supply, let alone a full month.

    $50 for 23 servings is over priced IMHO, and this is is nothing against BPS or PP. I felt this way before it was licensed to you guys.

    I'm glad to hear it will have 60 servings. Just hope 2 doses a day isn't recommended. Though with the 24h time release of transdermals, that would be pointless; right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73
    I agree, back on track. PP is a well respected company and we don't want any negative talk about them in here.

    SourDough, this new product will be better than you expect because BPS is formulating it. Certainly BPS liked the Dermacrine which is why they licensed the use of it. However BPS decided to come out with something that the owners of BPS feel is much improved. BPS does not put out undue hype on their products they put science to the test and come out with Performance Solutions.
    I am certainly excited and looking forward to it and interested in the reasoning behind the end formulation just as much.

    Can't wait bro.
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    this is becoming my favorite thread to read everyday....great info, and i love the fact that transdermals are still viable from a few top notch companies like bps-keep them td's coming!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape McGrapes View Post
    4 weeks falls short for most suppliments. Some don't even get in full swing till then. 6 weeks and you will need two bottles. Why should one have to buy 2 bottles?

    Dermacrine, though I loved it, was way over priced IMO. When PP switched cariers it jumped $10 in price. At almost $50 a bottle we should have gotten twice The servings. Instead we got 23 servings at the recommended dose. That's not even a 4 week supply, let alone a full month.

    $50 for 23 servings is over priced IMHO, and this is is nothing against BPS or PP. I felt this way before it was licensed to you guys.

    I'm glad to hear it will have 60 servings. Just hope 2 doses a day isn't recommended. Though with the 24h time release of transdermals, that would be pointless; right?
    Well I have to say Ape, I have never actually seen the BPS version of Dermacrine priced over $39.99 at any major online retailer, and quite often the sales on it went down to $29.99 one of the reasons that BPS chose to license it was they could actually market and sell it for a bit cheaper than the $50 price tag and still have a nice profit margin. Certainly one can state that 23 doses in a bottle for $50 is not the best deal in town. Once could also say that someone who came along bought the license and chose to make $10.00 less per bottle for the same thing that consumers were more than willing to pay the extra $10.00 for was not being greedy but actually giving the consumers a break while also making the most out of capitalist IE... profit based market. Keep in mind they had to pay to license the product not just take the raws and put them in a bottle. So that in and of itself dictates some of the price and still there was a discounted price from the beginning of BPS re-releasing the product.

    Now to be honest, I can not think of any company barring one that was trying to strike back at PP rather than make money make a product that can be run for 2 months and sell it for the price of one months worth of product. Certainly their are others that sell 2 months worth in one bottle, and charge the same as two bottles worth of product. Bottom line is is you want 2 months worth of product or to take 2 months worth of product in 4-6 weeks then you purchase a second bottle. Why should you have to, because this is a profit driven market and that is how business is done. You also often see BPS creat SKU's for stacks where you can get stacks with multiple bottles for discounts for the very reason you are talking about. So rather than get into semantics about why you feel that there should be 2 months worth in a bottle lets look at the fact that BPS automatically saved you $20.00 for that same 6.5 week cycle simply by choosing to have lower base prices and not price gouge. On top of that in many of the sales the price was dropped another $20.00 saving you $40 total effectively changing the ending cost of the second bottle at the original price to $10.00.

    My point is that expecting 2 months worth of product in one bottle for much less than the price of 2 months of the same product in two containers is just not how things are done in this market. It is not the norm nor is it profitable to an acceptable margin to businesses investors. Profit margins have to be attractive to business investors if you expect to get the capital to research and develop more innovative products and or have enough of those products in stock to satisfy the needs or demands.

    That being said BPS keeps the cost per unit down and even lowered the cost per unit upon purchasing the license for Dermacrine. So everyone join in now in saying it BPS FUGGIN ROCKS!!!!

    PS. I too would love 8 weeks in a bottle for a low price. I just don't expect it so I am not blasting you at all Ape.
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    btw... when i was bringing up price points and cost of materials... it certainly was in scrutiny of any company providing market prepared products at price points less then 50 bucks... i wouldn't even scrutinize any products with price points upwards to 70 bucks if the innovation and uniqueness was actually worth paying for considering the costs that go into r and d...

    But anything beyond is just price gouging and ridiculous and won't ever see my money spent on them when i can buy multiples of other products n just stock up.

    Now considering this... i hope I'm not paying 70 bucks to try out the next bps product, but I'm also hoping that there will be something in it worthwhile shelling out money for in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    I am certainly excited and looking forward to it and interested in the reasoning behind the end formulation just as much.

    Can't wait bro.

    x2!!!!

    question for ya...if i apply androgel to shoulders in am, can i apply dermacrine to shoulders 12-14 hours later? how would/or would it?-effect absorption of either/or both?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt

    x2!!!!

    question for ya...if i apply androgel to shoulders in am, can i apply dermacrine to shoulders 12-14 hours later? how would/or would it?-effect absorption of either/or both?
    i think you'll be fine.

    Most td solutions are suggested to be applied in 2 separate applications. I would always make your first application the Androgel, applied after taking a shower when the skin is clean and pores are open(scrubbing/exfoliating the application site is wise). The second application of the dermacrine can be done on the exact same site, but honestly i think applying to the backs of your calves, inner thigh, backs of knees are all just fine sites of application.

    I've even thought to myself about the fact there is typically residue still left from the initial application of most compounds and a second application may help push that residue through as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    btw... when i was bringing up price points and cost of materials... it certainly was in scrutiny of any company providing market prepared products at price points less then 50 bucks... i wouldn't even scrutinize any products with price points upwards to 70 bucks if the innovation and uniqueness was actually worth paying for considering the costs that go into r and d...

    But anything beyond is just price gouging and ridiculous and won't ever see my money spent on them when i can buy multiples of other products n just stock up.

    Now considering this... i hope I'm not paying 70 bucks to try out the next bps product, but I'm also hoping that there will be something in it worthwhile shelling out money for in the first place.
    Price will not be far off from OG Derm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    i think you'll be fine.

    Most td solutions are suggested to be applied in 2 separate applications. I would always make your first application the Androgel, applied after taking a shower when the skin is clean and pores are open(scrubbing/exfoliating the application site is wise). The second application of the dermacrine can be done on the exact same site, but honestly i think applying to the backs of your calves, inner thigh, backs of knees are all just fine sites of application.

    I've even thought to myself about the fact there is typically residue still left from the initial application of most compounds and a second application may help push that residue through as well.
    this was my hope, in doing it this way-that the dermacrine might actually help increase the absorption rate of the androgel.....thanks!!!
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    BPS products are always reasonably priced. Some companies aren't and you have to almost sell a kidney to afford them. BPS is not one of those companies. I'm sure whatever ends up being in this it will be reasonably priced for what you're getting. They don't have the track record of anything else. Dermacrine was 30 bucks at NP just recently when they had it which is much cheaper than anyone else has ever offered it.
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