BPS' What's improved with the upcoming DHEA transdermal

[metroba]

Hijack?

Lol ironic. But, no, not the name. Cool nonetheless.

[BulkPerf]

In no way are ouifinnys comments about PA representing that of my opinion of PA. Once again he is not speaking on behalf of the company and is speaking his mind not my mind or beliefs on PA. I would like to keep any political or bashing out of my section.

[Resolve]

I haven't even been told what the new name is gonna be. I'm thinking 'surge' is gonna be involved somehow... hmm...

[BulkPerf]

I haven't even been told what the new name is gonna be. I'm thinking 'surge' is gonna be involved somehow... hmm...

[metroba]

I haven't even been told what the new name is gonna be. I'm thinking 'surge' is gonna be involved somehow... hmm...

[oufinny]

Let's try and keep politics out of this thread and get back to what's important. This stuff is going to be amazing and it is going to be well received by the public.

Anyone want to guess the name?

Yep. I am no longer going to have an opinion anymore. It's just too much of a distraction from what we are trying to do, educate and answer questions related to BPS products.

[thebigt]

Let's try and keep politics out of this thread and get back to what's important. This stuff is going to be amazing and it is going to be well received by the public.

Anyone want to guess the name?

thebigTD

[thebigt]

I haven't even been told what the new name is gonna be. I'm thinking 'surge' is gonna be involved somehow... hmm...

ok...thebigTDsurge!!!

[BulkPerf]

ok...thebigTDsurge!!!

I like it!!

[thebigt]

I like it!!

lol....me too

[jwa254]

ok...thebigTDsurge!!!

not bad not bad.

[oufinny]

This GIF is freaking spectacular and deserves some love!

[Ape McGrapes]

Dermasurge

[oufinny]

TestSurge. That is in fact what it is supposed to do right?

[metroba]

Through careful thought we think we are going to go with SurgaSurge. Just sounds right.











For the sarcasm challenged, that was a joke.

[AZMIDLYF]

AlphaSurge

[oufinny]

Through careful thought we think we are going to go with SurgaSurge. Just sounds right.











For the sarcasm challenged, that was a joke.

I already posted it on facebook, what?

[Sourdough]

Sourdough, pretty sure you misinterpreted Kleen's post. Kleen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to say that test can be converted to either DHT or estradiol, not that the single sterol skeleton was being split into two separate hormones.

Edit: I've seen conversion rates in studies both high and low, seems very dependent on model system. Also, there is plenty of evidence of DHEA having beneficial effects in plenty of studies, though the mechanism is still certainly not agreed upon.

... this all went down with dermacrine ages ago, points were made but many used the product regardless n given it was basically the only td dhea supp on the market at the time, it kinda did have its place when absolutely needed... which isn't nearly as often as most assumed and def isn't a viable replacement for a test base.

I really don't know why some company doesn't just come out with a 4dhea supplement in transdermal form for us that would really only be susceptible to aromatising once it's converted to test like the old 4 ad was....

Then transaderm came out, just like this and it also copied the dermacrine formula n faced the same scrutiny... that's when one of the reps tried to represent a study as a viable reason why it SHOULD be used as a test base... which i actually read and found only proved my point....

Here's the study n my explanation/footnotes why it's a bad idea....
http://www.prohormoneforum.com/aas/5...html#post87316

N here's the original transaderm thread where everything was brought up...

PH Stackin Question

[MrKleen73]

Hey Kleen,

Not trying to rain on your parade or be condescending or anything of the sort... but this is truly a misinformed statement.

Dht is a product of 5a reductase, not the aromatase enzyme. There are no hormonal "byproducts" of the aromatase process. There is one, single, steroidal skeleton involved, typically in the form of testosterone, the aromatase enzyme attaches and then adds the necessary compound to turn that steroidal skeleton into one bearing the formula for estrogen. Plain and simple. There aren't 2 skeletons that cleave making both estrogen and dht or any other sort of combo. They both occur through their own individual enzymatic conversion processes on individual skeletons [of testosterone].

Check out any male hormone conversion chart... Google can show many out here's one on my photobucket.... ... and you'll see what I'm talking about.



Separate point.... kinda... is my disagreement that this is even a viable hormone supplement for the market...

I know many others like dermacrine have come and gone, impressing many... but i just don't see it and think that any male should avoid supplementing dhea like the plague unless on trt and they need a viable source for other sex hormones...

I've made multiple arguments, that cite studies, against dhea use(especially transdermal) that i can copy or link if wanted...but essentially it shows how horrible dhea really can be for a man and the horrible ratio of testosterone conversion that occurs compared to estrogen(something like 40% increase in T compared to a 300% increase in E over baseline values) and i know the argument is an AI is included BUT it's not a strong one, def not strong enough to offset those percentages. Not to mention dhea has its own intrinsic effects at the ER AND other metabolites dhea converts to(that an AI can't block)also have direct interactions at the ER....

So like I said, really unless your lacking in estrogen, I'd avoid taking dhea like the plague.

Again not trying to start an argument, just making some viable points I'd be happy to back up further if requested to do so.

Not taking it that way at all and , I completely misspoke when I mentioned they were part of the same process, what Resolve said below is pretty much correct I knew they were both converted from the same substrates. However I was indeed confusing the reductase process as part of the aromatase process since it has been quite a while since I looked at the flow chart. So I can admit my folly there. Good catch and thanks for posting the chart!

I agree with the high rate of conversion of DHEA to Estro however, I also wonder if some of the studies you are mentioning are based off of oral administration of DHEA and not topical. Oral administration has a higher rate of estro conversion than topical, specifically referring to the upper back and shoulder areas where the conversion to estrogen has been shown to be much lower. Also where the recommended application of DHEA products is in general.

Sourdough, pretty sure you misinterpreted Kleen's post. Kleen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to say that test can be converted to either DHT or estradiol, not that the single sterol skeleton was being split into two separate hormones.

Edit: I've seen conversion rates in studies both high and low, seems very dependent on model system. Also, there is plenty of evidence of DHEA having beneficial effects in plenty of studies, though the mechanism is still certainly not agreed upon.

Yes I have read multiple studies citing the positive effects of DHEA as well.

This is good conversation, lets keep it going.

[flightposite]

ok...thebigSTDsurge!!!

Do not want!

[Resolve]

Sourdough, PM me a link to the actual study, I can't get on PHF in my current location.

[Sourdough]

Kleen- the study I'm writing from on the other pages was 50mg ed in a transdermal application. Basically what is used in the sports supplements brought to market.

Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf
It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.

[Resolve]

Kleen- the study I'm writing from on the other pages was 50mg ed in a transdermal application. Basically what is used in the sports supplements brought to market.

Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf
It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.

5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.

[oufinny]

5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.

Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.

[Geoforce]

Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.

Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.

[Sourdough]

5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.

You didn't read very much huh?

Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)

Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?

Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.

What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?

Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?

Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?

And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.

Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?

[metroba]

Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.

Traps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.

[Sourdough]

Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.

concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.

[Sourdough]

Traps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.

incorrect

[Sourdough]

concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.

this is great and ideal for immediate conversion of course, but systematic conversions occur constantly also....

And with dhea, there are plenty of points along the conversion process where either the metabolites itself can interact with the er and/or can still convert directly to an estrogen.....

Really the estrogenic worries of dhea are not solely the product of estrogen itself.

[Geoforce]

Good discussion going, keep it coming.

[BulkPerf]

I love the conversation that is going on. Keep in mind we are not duplicating the product at all. We are making changes that have not been released yet. But for fun:

Physiol Res. 2000;49(6):685-93.
Effects of transdermal application of DHEA on the levels of steroids, gonadotropins and lipids in men.
Sulcová J, Hill M, Hampl R, Masek Z, Novácek A, Ceska R, Stárka L.
Source

Institute of Endocrinology, AREKO, Ltd., First Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic. jsulcova@endo.cz
Abstract

In order to ascertain the kinetics of absorption and metabolism of transdermally administered dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), 10 men 29-72 years old (mean 52.4+/-14.5) received 50 mg DHEA/day in a gel applied onto the skin of the abdomen for 5 consecutive days. The objective was to establish the extent to which DHEA influences the levels of gonadotropins, sex hormone-binding globulin and lipids. It was found that DHEA is well absorbed and rapidly metabolized to its sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, and consequently to testosterone and estradiol. The DHEA levels that markedly increased after the first doses gradually declined already during the application, and this decline proceeded even after it was discontinued, reaching levels significantly lower than the original ones. On the other hand, the levels of DHEA metabolites (with the exception of DHEAS) rose during the application and reached values significantly higher than the basal ones within 5 weeks. This effect was accompanied by significantly decreased levels of LH. The serum levels of lipids, namely of cholesterol (both HDL and LDL cholesterol), triglycerides, apolipoproteins A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) after DHEA application were not changed significantly, and the atherogenic index (AI) remained unaltered. However, some correlations between hormones and lipids were found. Negative correlations concerned the following indices: DHEA/Lp(a); DHEAS/cholesterol; DHEA, DHEAS, testosterone/TG; testosterone/AI. On the other hand, LH, FSH/cholesterol, FSH, SHBG/LDL cholesterol, FSH/Apo B, Lp(a) correlated positively. It can be concluded that transdermal short-time application of DHEA results in a decrease of endogenous DHEA after finishing the treatment, with a parallel marked increase in the levels of sex hormones. Using this application protocol, exogenous DHEA neither altered the lipid spectrum, nor did it influence the atherogenic index.

PMID:
11252535
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

[Sourdough]

I love the conversation that is going on. Keep in mind we are not duplicating the product at all. We are making changes that have not been released yet. But for fun:

that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?

The paragraph under table one goes into detail as to where these hormone levels reside 5 weeks out and the table 2 shows a direct comparison of levels at day 0, 4(mid way), 6(end) and 42(post administration ramifications) where test is increased 50% and estrogen 300%, LH is half of what it was and endogenous dhea is near non existent to further replenish these hormones...

So there better be a stronger ai then chrysin included(does its mw even allow viable td application?) And it better have a minimum of a 5 week halflife or sold in a combo with a standalone ai(+daa?) to be taken through pct and beyond...

[BulkPerf]

that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?

The paragraph under table one goes into detail as to where these hormone levels reside 5 weeks out and the table 2 shows a direct comparison of levels at day 0, 4(mid way), 6(end) and 42(post administration ramifications) where test is increased 50% and estrogen 300%, LH is half of what it was and endogenous dhea is near non existent to further replenish these hormones...

So there better be a stronger ai then chrysin included(does its mw even allow viable td application?) And it better have a minimum of a 5 week halflife or sold in a combo with a standalone ai(+daa?) to be taken through pct and beyond...

Like I said it was just for fun. When we release the ingredients you will have a much better idea rather then Speculation.

[Sourdough]

Like I said it was just for fun. When we release the ingredients you will have a much better idea rather then Speculation.

Ok...

[thebigt]

Do not want!

lol....fail.

[Ape McGrapes]

pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males

Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?

Now I think we need to stop referring to "dermacrine" as a "test base." It gets half the people confused on what it actually is and the other halfs panties all in a bunch. At best DHEA has a conversion rate of like 1% to Testosterone. It's used to midigate side effects such as lethargy and libido loss, similar to testosterone. Besides it converts to other hormones; androstenediol and androstenedione.

[Sourdough]

Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?

Now I think we need to stop referring to "dermacrine" as a "test base." It gets half the people confused on what it actually is and the other halfs panties all in a bunch. At best DHEA has a conversion rate of like 1% to Testosterone. It's used to midigate side effects such as lethargy and libido loss, similar to testosterone. Besides it converts to other hormones; androstenediol and androstenedione.

Because there is Market for it and money to be made legally under the guise of being a legit ph in a market that's about to be non-existent?

Idk, but you can see his personal posts as recent as a year ago(less actually) stating it's not a wise choice for use by men.

I completely agree with the second part of your post.

[thebigt]

to me science is only a step in the evolutionary ladder ahead of broscience...look at prescription medicine, you get 1 script and need 3 more to counter the side effects.

ok, back on track...for as long as i have been on this and other forums the debate over dhea has been ongoing. well here is my take on it: as many people who have supplemented with dhea [both oral and topical] surely some of them have had blood tests done...can you show me any posts where anyone has attributed dhea to getting bad results from blood tests????

science to me is a whole lot of conjecture....the body is way too complicated to predict exactly how it will respond- case in point look at how many drugs big pharma invests in, only to have them rejected either because they didn't do what scientists thought they would, or because the sides were worse than the benefits.

in closing, if you read the threads people loved dermacrine and were excited when bps brought it back, there is a lot to be said by all of the repeat users, at least in my opinion.

[AZMIDLYF]

I notice a big improvement in my general well being when using it. Of course my age could be dictating that.