Raynaud's disease

[Mikey13]

Ok, I need a some scientifical / medical help here. My fiance has Raynaud's disease (primary Raynaud's) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud's_phenomenon and we are pretty sure (so is her DR) that it is primary, so it would then be a vasospatic disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasospasm

She read a lot into the ingredients of Napalm and she is a bit concerned that their might be some adverse side-effects with the localized affects of Napalm and her disease. I am computer geek, so this science stuff boggles my mind, but while reading up on it, I do see a lot of info on Alpha and Beta blockers/antagonists/receptors... but who am I....

Can anyone give some insight as if there is any need for concern - and yes we already have the bottle of Napalm in front of us, so I am hoping we get the green light.

 

[Sir Savage]

Hmmm...

Where is she planning on applying the Napalm?

 

[jmh80]

Wow - EXTREMELY loaded question.

 

[DeerDeer]

Ok, I need a some scientifical / medical help here. My fiance has Raynaud's disease (primary Raynaud's) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud's_phenomenon and we are pretty sure (so is her DR) that it is primary, so it would then be a vasospatic disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasospasm

She read a lot into the ingredients of Napalm and she is a bit concerned that their might be some adverse side-effects with the localized affects of Napalm and her disease. I am computer geek, so this science stuff boggles my mind, but while reading up on it, I do see a lot of info on Alpha and Beta blockers/antagonists/receptors... but who am I....

Can anyone give some insight as if there is any need for concern - and yes we already have the bottle of Napalm in front of us, so I am hoping we get the green light.

I would not even consider using any stims that have vasoconstrictive properties with a history of raynauds. The goal would be vasodilation with a medication, for example a peripheral vasodilator such as nifedipine.

These alledged "vasodilators" do nothing of the sort. IMO stay away.

 

[Mikey13]

Hmmm...

Where is she planning on applying the Napalm?

she is planning on stomach, and glutes.

Her raynauds affects her hands and feet, but we want to be sure first.

 

[Mikey13]

Wow - EXTREMELY loaded question.

eh not so much. I look at it as, hey it might trigger her disease more, don't take it : or, no need to worry, get at it!

And I do understand that these claims have not been approved by the FDA just looking for an educated response, not cross your heart hope to die

 

[Sir Savage]

eh not so much. I look at it as, hey it might trigger her disease more, don't take it : or, no need to worry, get at it!

And I do understand that these claims have not been approved by the FDA just looking for an educated response, not cross your heart hope to die

Well, if you want it in those terms, I'd say the former- "Hey, it might trigger her disease more."

I don't know that for sure, but this is just one of those things where it's best to err on the side of caution, you feel me?

 

[dsade]

You would also have to do the application for her, if the disease affects her hands.

SHOULD you decide to try it out, keep it at 1 squirt to assess her reaction.

Also, given the serious and unpredictable nature, I would not expect a hugely detailed speculation/answer from the Avant reps - liabiity and all - but the rest of us, without financial stake, can try to help YOU understand and make a decision.

Let me see if my rep, Trauma (an ER Nurse) knows anything further.

 

[jmh80]

You would also have to do the application for her, if the disease affects her hands.

SHOULD you decide to try it out, keep it at 1 squirt to assess her reaction.

Also, given the serious and unpredictable nature, I would not expect a hugely detailed speculation/answer from the Avant reps - liabiity and all - but the rest of us, without financial stake, can try to help YOU understand and make a decision.

Let me see if my rep, Trauma (an ER Nurse) knows anything further.

Deer Deer is a doc, Dsade. Traum would be a good guy to have input also.

 

[Mikey13]

Sir Savage, and dsade - thats the type of answer I am looking for. As i stated, I know not too much about all this medical stuff, so I will definately apply it for her AND do testing with one squirt as well.. I appreciate the responses.

 

[DeerDeer]

Sir Savage, and dsade - thats the type of answer I am looking for. As i stated, I know not too much about all this medical stuff, so I will definately apply it for her AND do testing with one squirt as well.. I appreciate the responses.

It has yohimbine and synephrine, known potent vasoconstrictors. I woul dnot even consider in a person with potential vasocclusive disease.

In severe raynauds the vessels constrict to a point (typically cold induced) that they actually can cause necrosis of the distal digits.

Personal recommendation, diet and exercise, avoid the cold. If it severe, shee needs medical management.

 

[jmh80]

Sir Savage, and dsade - thats the type of answer I am looking for. As i stated, I know not too much about all this medical stuff, so I will definately apply it for her AND do testing with one squirt as well.. I appreciate the responses.

Deer Deer is a doctor. If you don't listen to what he says - you are a retard.

No offense, bro.

 

[Mikey13]

Deer Deer is a doctor. If you don't listen to what he says - you are a retard.

No offense, bro.

no offense BRO, but I don't listen to someone just because they are a "DR" - not all Doctors are smart and up-to-date on everything.

I am going to listen to DeerDeer because reading many of his other posts on this forum, and on this here thread, and his prompt and clear response to my PM regarding this matter has shown that he does in fact have the knowledge to give knowledgeable info without need to doubt him.


DeerDeer, thanks again for your input.

 

[DeerDeer]

no offense BRO, but I don't listen to someone just because they are a "DR" - not all Doctors are smart and up-to-date on everything.

I am going to listen to DeerDeer because reading many of his other posts on this forum, and on this here thread, and his prompt and clear response to my PM regarding this matter has shown that he does in fact have the knowledge to give knowledgeable info without need to doubt him.


DeerDeer, thanks again for your input.

No problem - the reality is that there are in fact plenty of guys here that are just as if not more knowledgeable int he realm of nutrition/fitness/health than the average physician.

I think jmh's comments were not meant to be offensive but rather to render some credibility to my comments - too many individuals say what they know, but don't quite know what they say if you know what i mean.

Cheers Mikey, cheers jmh.

 

[Mikey13]

No problem - the reality is that there are in fact plenty of guys here that are just as if not more knowledgeable int he realm of nutrition/fitness/health than the average physician.

I think jmh's comments were not meant to be offensive but rather to render some credibility to my comments - too many individuals say what they know, but don't quite know what they say if you know what i mean.

Cheers Mikey, cheers jmh.

I agree, which is why I responded the way I did, we all have met a Dr. once in our life, who knows not so much. And telling someone to listen to another person, solely based on the fact that they are a Dr. can be very misguided advice.

I wasn't meaning to be offensive either.... just explaining why I only listen to those who prove then have knowledge of the matter at hand.. thanks again to all who responded and lead us in the right direction.

 

[jmh80]

It was clear you were going to move forward. Deer Deer has proven to understand supplements - most doc's don't.

Hence a clear post was needed in my mind.

Calm down and stop lecturing on doctors.

I understand better than anyone. The doctor's at the VA hospital in Johnson City, TN had a large hand in my father's death this February.

Good luck.

 

[Mikey13]

It was clear you were going to move forward.

Eh kinda - not really, I should have edited that post, I had initially missed DeerDeer's 1st post, which is why I responded saying I would apply it for her, then once reading his post, I contacted him directly for more info.
And no need to tell me to calm down, I am quite calm. I am just validating my point as to why, I want facts and proof not an opinion.... no one is disagreeing in this post.

jmh - sorry to hear the news, I was not around back then - and I share your sentiments, I have had loved ones pass due to a Dr's ignorance.

 

[Mikey13]

Can I ask another related question?
These topical supps are supposed to be local right? and not systematic? Which, if I understand correctly, works only on the applied area, no? If this is the case, and one only is affected by Raynaud's on their hands and feet, why would applying this on the stomach and glutes affect them negatively?
Mind you, as I posted in another thread, I am new to this topical/localized style of supplements. And how they affect the whole body, which might be why I am a bit confused.
Just trying to learn....

 

[Mikey13]

no one?
.

 

[DeerDeer]

Can I ask another related question?
These topical supps are supposed to be local right? and not systematic? Which, if I understand correctly, works only on the applied area, no? If this is the case, and one only is affected by Raynaud's on their hands and feet, why would applying this on the stomach and glutes affect them negatively?
Mind you, as I posted in another thread, I am new to this topical/localized style of supplements. And how they affect the whole body, which might be why I am a bit confused.
Just trying to learn....

Mikey - I am unclear on how much is absorbed systemically for each of the vasoconstrictive compounds. I don't think it is worth the risk of exacerbating a pre-existing condition to the point of possible tissue necrosis.

 

[Colin]

Can I ask another related question?
These topical supps are supposed to be local right? and not systematic? Which, if I understand correctly, works only on the applied area, no? If this is the case, and one only is affected by Raynaud's on their hands and feet, why would applying this on the stomach and glutes affect them negatively?
Mind you, as I posted in another thread, I am new to this topical/localized style of supplements. And how they affect the whole body, which might be why I am a bit confused.
Just trying to learn....

Yes,the effects are chiefly localized but there may be a very small amount of systematic absorption.With her condition a small amount may be all that's needed for problems to arise,I wouldn't use Napalm if I had such a condition.

Unless Tramau can state with certainty something to the contrary,I wouldn't have her use Napalm.

NOW's Green Tea Extract or Lean Green (empty stomach) and Seathin will help with fat loss,along with dieting and cardio.Such an approach may have to suffice in lieu of a localized fat loss. agent.

 

[Trauma1]

Yes,the effects are chiefly localized but there may be a very small amount of systematic absorption.With her condition a small amount may be all that's needed for problems to arise,I wouldn't use Napalm if I had such a condition.

Unless Tramau can state with certainty something to the contrary,I wouldn't have her use Napalm.

NOW's Green Tea Extract or Lean Green (empty stomach) and Seathin will help with fat loss,along with dieting and cardio.Such an approach may have to suffice in lieu of a localized fat loss. agent.

Sorry guys, i didn't see this thread initially.

Raynaud's really isn't something to fool around with. As deer deer already pointed out, anything that can further impair microvascular perfusion to a distal extremity or digit(finger/toe) should be avoided at all costs.

Raynaud's is more of a nuisance than anything, however if symptomatology is undiagnosed, unaddressed, or left untreated, it can lead to significantly impaired distal tissue perfusion putting that person at risk for tissue death/necrosis. Just as deer deer stated, synephrine and yohimbine can have very potent systemic effects. We actually use neo-synephrine as a vasopressor medication in the e.r. Even small amounts of a vasoactive substance can cause significant issues in people with preexisting conditions that can be effected by them.

Off the record - In my own professional opinion, i don't recommend using the napalm. While i realize the arguement will be, "What if she doesn't apply it herself though?" In all honesty, it doesn't matter.

Anything that has the possibility to demonstrate systemic effects on vasculature can exacerbate this condition. So in short, the risks outweigh the benefits imo. While it may not effect some people with this condition all that much, i'm sure in others it could. It's not worth the risk to me.

I'm all about safety first, and i'm sure deer deer would agree to that.

 

[Mikey13]

Thanks guys - I really appreciate the advice and info. I guess I need to do more reading up on this stuff. I guess I was under the false impression that localized, meant local and only local. But now I understand everyones' concern.
Reps to all.....