Feedback; AMPHETALIN

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    Feedback; AMPHETALIN


    Well thank you for the supps again! I took 2 in total as I am a stim Junkie and knew what I was looking for. So experience...I took 1 to start..waited 20 min...not much...I took 1 more and 20 min later started my workout. The effect was awesome when it kicked in. Not a crazy jittery Berserker high but a focused clear motivation that made me WANT to rep more. I feel that this is the Samurai workout enhancer. Focus and energy not just rage and insanity. I say thi s because I still feel the effects..and if I was a Samurai I feel as if I could not only cut a baseball thrown at my head with my Katana blade, I could julienne it and catch it with the plate in my other hand. Props to AN. I will buy this to interchange with my other energy supps. Now to try it at work!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    Well thank you for the supps again! I took 2 in total as I am a stim Junkie and knew what I was looking for. So experience...I took 1 to start..waited 20 min...not much...I took 1 more and 20 min later started my workout. The effect was awesome when it kicked in. Not a crazy jittery Berserker high but a focused clear motivation that made me WANT to rep more. I feel that this is the Samurai workout enhancer. Focus and energy not just rage and insanity. I say thi s because I still feel the effects..and if I was a Samurai I feel as if I could not only cut a baseball thrown at my head with my Katana blade, I could julienne it and catch it with the plate in my other hand. Props to AN. I will buy this to interchange with my other energy supps. Now to try it at work!!!!
    Now THAT is what it does! Thank for your feedback!

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    Just one more thing...DO NOT TAKE IT CLOSE TO BEDTIME!!! I was wired and fired till 3am haha...read half of under the dome waiting to get sleepy heh...I will like these for work me thinks =)
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    Just one more thing...DO NOT TAKE IT CLOSE TO BEDTIME!!! I was wired and fired till 3am haha...read half of under the dome waiting to get sleepy heh...I will like these for work me thinks =)
    Yeah, we recommend that it NOT be taken within ~8 hours of going to bed, LOL.

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    I usually avoid stims primarily because they increase my blood pressure. Itís normally fine but when I'm using stims it jumps into the pre-hypertension range. I have been experimenting with Black Cats; one tab on an empty stomach seems to be more than enough for me. At this dosage I get a good increase in energy and it doesnít seem to affect my BP as much as other stims I have tried.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    Yeah, we recommend that it NOT be taken within ~8 hours of going to bed, LOL.

    ~Rosie
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    Yea...I would have to give a big affirmative on that logic!
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    agreed!
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    The addition of licorice extract, in Black Cat, is risky. Glycyrrhitinic acid is well known to cause hypokalemia through 11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibition in the kidneys. Sodium retention, potassium excretion, with stimulants thrown in the mix seems like a great product for potential lawsuits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by micro2000 View Post
    The addition of licorice extract, in Black Cat, is risky. Glycyrrhitinic acid is well known to cause hypokalemia through 11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibition in the kidneys. Sodium retention, potassium excretion, with stimulants thrown in the mix seems like a great product for potential lawsuits.
    Interesting..I will have to research a bit on this.
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    I do like the stim effects of black cats, however I found this interesting information regarding glycyrrhetinic acid:

    3-Beta-D-(monoglucuronyl)18-beta-glycyrrhetinic acid, a metabolite of glycyrrhetinic acid inhibits the conversion of active cortisol to inactive cortisone in the kidneys. This occurs via inhibition of the enzyme by inhibiting the enzyme 11-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. As a result, cortisol levels are high within the collecting duct of the kidney. Cortisol has intrinsic mineralocorticoid properties (that is, it acts like aldosterone and increases sodium re-absorption) that work on ENaC channels in the collecting duct. Hypertension develops due to this mechanism of sodium retention. People often have high blood pressure with a low renin and low aldosterone blood level. The increased amounts of cortisol binds to the unprotected, unspecific mineralocorticoid receptors and induce sodium and fluid retention, hypokalaemia, high blood pressure and inhibition of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Therefore licorice should not be given to patients with a known history of hypertension.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elivvt View Post
    I do like the stim effects of black cats, however I found this interesting information regarding glycyrrhetinic acid:

    3-Beta-D-(monoglucuronyl)18-beta-glycyrrhetinic acid, a metabolite of glycyrrhetinic acid inhibits the conversion of active cortisol to inactive cortisone in the kidneys. This occurs via inhibition of the enzyme by inhibiting the enzyme 11-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. As a result, cortisol levels are high within the collecting duct of the kidney. Cortisol has intrinsic mineralocorticoid properties (that is, it acts like aldosterone and increases sodium re-absorption) that work on ENaC channels in the collecting duct. Hypertension develops due to this mechanism of sodium retention. People often have high blood pressure with a low renin and low aldosterone blood level. The increased amounts of cortisol binds to the unprotected, unspecific mineralocorticoid receptors and induce sodium and fluid retention, hypokalaemia, high blood pressure and inhibition of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Therefore licorice should not be given to patients with a known history of hypertension.
    If the worry is hypertension you shouldn't be using stims in the first place because your just asking for trouble. With these studies you have to understand that results vary and it is not an absolute fact, but results that can happen depending on the individual. Besides, when I see these studies I always question the conditions of the test. More often times than not the abstracts that get posted are not true science and are more conjecture than anything else.

    Another thing...if you search hard enough you are going to find something negative to say about everything as there is a good and bad with just about everything. The key is to use everything in moderation and not to overindulge. Basically, use common sense and you'll be fine.

    Cheers!

    -Sean-

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBoz19 View Post
    If the worry is hypertension you shouldn't be using stims in the first place because your just asking for trouble. With these studies you have to understand that results vary and it is not an absolute fact, but results that can happen depending on the individual. Besides, when I see these studies I always question the conditions of the test. More often times than not the abstracts that get posted are not true science and are more conjecture than anything else.

    Another thing...if you search hard enough you are going to find something negative to say about everything as there is a good and bad with just about everything. The key is to use everything in moderation and not to overindulge. Basically, use common sense and you'll be fine.

    Cheers!

    -Sean-

    Team APPNUT
    You would be correct if one had to search through a pile of data to pull out one negative study, but this is not the case. A quick search on Pubmed shows that the OVERWHELMING data on Glycyrrhetinic acid shows the above results to be true. Hypokalemia and hypertension are well established side effects from liquorice.

    Given that user compliance is the one variable you can't control, I would be wary of the possibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBoz19 View Post
    If the worry is hypertension you shouldn't be using stims in the first place because your just asking for trouble. With these studies you have to understand that results vary and it is not an absolute fact, but results that can happen depending on the individual. Besides, when I see these studies I always question the conditions of the test. More often times than not the abstracts that get posted are not true science and are more conjecture than anything else.

    Another thing...if you search hard enough you are going to find something negative to say about everything as there is a good and bad with just about everything. The key is to use everything in moderation and not to overindulge. Basically, use common sense and you'll be fine.

    Cheers!

    -Sean-

    Team APPNUT
    I do not suffer from any heart related conditions but I just wanted to put out some of the hard facts that I have found regarding glycyrrhetinic acid which is found in licorice and licorice root. I didn't think about the licorice root extract until I read what micro2000 posted, so I then researched what was being said for myself to found out that the statements are true at which point I felt I needed to post my findings in regard to the specific details micro2000 brought forth.

    Although I don't know how much glycyrrhetinic acid is in each serving of Black Cats I feel that it is good to let the consumers know the possible side-effects that can stem from the licorice root so that a more careful consideration can be responsibly made before taking the product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elivvt View Post
    ...I feel that it is good to let the consumers know the possible side-effects that can stem from the licorice root so that a more careful consideration can be responsibly made before taking the product.
    There is a "Warning" on the label, for those that bother to read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by micro2000 View Post
    You would be correct if one had to search through a pile of data to pull out one negative study, but this is not the case. A quick search on Pubmed shows that the OVERWHELMING data on Glycyrrhetinic acid shows the above results to be true. Hypokalemia and hypertension are well established side effects from liquorice.

    Given that user compliance is the one variable you can't control, I would be wary of the possibility.
    Pubmed? Are you serious? So you mean to tell me all your data is coming from pubmed and because since it is on pubmed you believe it? More importantly, do you even pay attention to the studies in complete depth or do you focus in on only your agenda? You are coming across as being set out on a personal bias without any objectivity. What you need to get through your head is that every substance comes with a risk if your an idiot and do not use it properly. Furthermore, can you tell me how much licorice root is being used in these studies to determine the results? Are these results based on humans or rats? Please clarify. Also, if there is overwhelming evidence...where is it at? Pubmed has to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Now sorry come down on you a bit hard, but your rebuttals are getting tiresome on this subject. I have nothing against you personally and all I can advise is that if you feel so strongly against licorice root and it makes you this paranoid do the safe thing and do not use any product that contains licorice root or any derivative of it and you'll be fine. Nuff said!

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by elivvt View Post
    I do not suffer from any heart related conditions but I just wanted to put out some of the hard facts that I have found regarding glycyrrhetinic acid which is found in licorice and licorice root. I didn't think about the licorice root extract until I read what micro2000 posted, so I then researched what was being said for myself to found out that the statements are true at which point I felt I needed to post my findings in regard to the specific details micro2000 brought forth.

    Although I don't know how much glycyrrhetinic acid is in each serving of Black Cats I feel that it is good to let the consumers know the possible side-effects that can stem from the licorice root so that a more careful consideration can be responsibly made before taking the product.
    I understand the concern. However, what needs to be pointed out is that nearly everything you put into your body comes with risk. Now to give you an example of a substance that is widely used and is safe for consumption for most when dosed moderately...L-Dopa. L-Dopa if taken in high amounts can have some nasty side effects, but that is only you are taking in too much, have pre-exisiting conditions which can interact with the L-Dopa, or you are on medication which can interact with L-Dopa adversely.

    My point here...you have to look at licorice root like you do L-Dopa...as long you as you have no pre-existing conditions and your not taking any medications that could interact with the licorice root you will be fine using it in low to moderate amounts (which is all that is in Black Cats).

    I advise everyone to be smart and carry the thought that your body is your temple. Doing research is the best thing you can do, but at the same time don't believe everything you read...you have to use critical thinking sometimes and dissect these studies and realize that there is a lot of falsifiability involved...meaning the study is neither right or wrong.

    As I just advised Micro...if you feel that strongly about the topic of licorice root than play it safe and do not use any product containing licorice root. Nuff Said!

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBoz19 View Post
    Pubmed? Are you serious? So you mean to tell me all your data is coming from pubmed and because since it is on pubmed you believe it?
    Do you have another medical literature search engine that you feel is more "truthfull"?

    More importantly, do you even pay attention to the studies in complete depth or do you focus in on only your agenda?
    So because I pointed out the potential risk of licorice, now I have an agenda. Got it.

    You are coming across as being set out on a personal bias without any objectivity.
    No. That is what you would like to imply.

    What you need to get through your head is that every substance comes with a risk if your an idiot and do not use it properly. Furthermore, can you tell me how much licorice root is being used in these studies to determine the results? Are these results based on humans or rats? Please clarify. Also, if there is overwhelming evidence...where is it at? Pubmed has to be taken with a grain of salt.
    Does your product give specific amount of licorice extract? Since the amount of licorice contained is not listed, it may be in small enough quantities that no harm will occur. Without this information, individuals are unable to make a well informed determination of risk.

    Until you tell me where you access your scientific literature, I have to take your reply with the same grain of salt. I have never heard the charge that Pubmed is a suspect search engine.

    Now sorry come down on you a bit hard, but your rebuttals are getting tiresome on this subject. I have nothing against you personally and all I can advise is that if you feel so strongly against licorice root and it makes you this paranoid do the safe thing and do not use any product that contains licorice root or any derivative of it and you'll be fine. Nuff said!

    Cheers!

    -Sean-

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    Regardless of your personal feelings of me, I presented information that you have not refuted. Instead you became defensive.
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    Good solid info in here as well as feedback

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    Quote Originally Posted by micro2000 View Post
    Do you have another medical literature search engine that you feel is more "truthfull"?



    So because I pointed out the potential risk of licorice, now I have an agenda. Got it.



    No. That is what you would like to imply.



    Does your product give specific amount of licorice extract? Since the amount of licorice contained is not listed, it may be in small enough quantities that no harm will occur. Without this information, individuals are unable to make a well informed determination of risk.

    Until you tell me where you access your scientific literature, I have to take your reply with the same grain of salt. I have never heard the charge that Pubmed is a suspect search engine.



    Regardless of your personal feelings of me, I presented information that you have not refuted. Instead you became defensive.
    Let me clear this up- I formulated the product, and my team and I manufacture Black Cats. While your concerns are valid- I need you to understand some things. I use Calpan, Pubmed, Springerlink, and other databases in my research for formulations, plus I have had an extensive amount of course work in pharmacology, biochemistry, and A&P, along with 6 years of industry experience, both in manufacturing and formulating dietary supplements. We (at Applied) will never put out a product that is going to run the risk of producing an adverse event as a company, period. Everything that we bring to market has been extensively tested (including BP levels on Black Cats) and researched, and my partners and I have too much time and energy invested in our company to risk injuring someone with one of our products. I have too much personal pride and investment in my formulations to bring something to market that could be potentially dangerous- it is simply not how we (as a company) or I (as a person) operate.

    Licorice root is safe and effective for the intended purpose (to increase the activity of the adrenal medulla) in small amounts- stimulant products work in a more effacious manner over an extended period of time with some type of adrenal support. The amount is not listed because it is a proprietary formula. The reason it isn't listed and the reason why we use proprietary blends has to do with the large amount of other companies (including several on this board) like to rip off my product concepts and component blends- and this one is going to be no different, unfortunately.....

    There are hundreds of these type of products on the market- and trust me, there are some really dangerous formulations out there- but this isn't one of them.......
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Let me clear this up- I formulated the product, and my team and I manufacture Black Cats. While your concerns are valid- I need you to understand some things. I use Calpan, Pubmed, Springerlink, and other databases in my research for formulations, plus I have had an extensive amount of course work in pharmacology, biochemistry, and A&P, along with 6 years of industry experience, both in manufacturing and formulating dietary supplements. We (at Applied) will never put out a product that is going to run the risk of producing an adverse event as a company, period. Everything that we bring to market has been extensively tested (including BP levels on Black Cats) and researched, and my partners and I have too much time and energy invested in our company to risk injuring someone with one of our products. I have too much personal pride and investment in my formulations to bring something to market that could be potentially dangerous- it is simply not how we (as a company) or I (as a person) operate.

    Licorice root is safe and effective for the intended purpose (to increase the activity of the adrenal medulla) in small amounts- stimulant products work in a more effacious manner over an extended period of time with some type of adrenal support. The amount is not listed because it is a proprietary formula. The reason it isn't listed and the reason why we use proprietary blends has to do with the large amount of other companies (including several on this board) like to rip off my product concepts and component blends- and this one is going to be no different, unfortunately.....

    There are hundreds of these type of products on the market- and trust me, there are some really dangerous formulations out there- but this isn't one of them.......
    Thank you for the insight.
    I would like to say I am on day 7 of using black cats and the stim effects are great and I have yet to experience any problems while doing cardio-training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Let me clear this up- I formulated the product, and my team and I manufacture Black Cats. While your concerns are valid- I need you to understand some things. I use Calpan, Pubmed, Springerlink, and other databases in my research for formulations, plus I have had an extensive amount of course work in pharmacology, biochemistry, and A&P, along with 6 years of industry experience, both in manufacturing and formulating dietary supplements. We (at Applied) will never put out a product that is going to run the risk of producing an adverse event as a company, period. Everything that we bring to market has been extensively tested (including BP levels on Black Cats) and researched, and my partners and I have too much time and energy invested in our company to risk injuring someone with one of our products. I have too much personal pride and investment in my formulations to bring something to market that could be potentially dangerous- it is simply not how we (as a company) or I (as a person) operate.

    Licorice root is safe and effective for the intended purpose (to increase the activity of the adrenal medulla) in small amounts- stimulant products work in a more effacious manner over an extended period of time with some type of adrenal support. The amount is not listed because it is a proprietary formula. The reason it isn't listed and the reason why we use proprietary blends has to do with the large amount of other companies (including several on this board) like to rip off my product concepts and component blends- and this one is going to be no different, unfortunately.....

    There are hundreds of these type of products on the market- and trust me, there are some really dangerous formulations out there- but this isn't one of them.......
    Thank you for a civilized reply. My posts were never intended to be attacks on your product or company, but merely a concern based on the real possibility for side effects from licorice. Of course this potential is related to dose, the fact that dose is not listed, the end user can't make as informed a calculation of risk as otherwise possible.

    I have been very interested in licorice myself, because of several components that display some novel properties. I am not against the use of the plant, I just realize that it has the real possibility, in certain doses, to cause problems.

    I do hope that your product doesn't cause anyone harm, because I don't wish to see anymore misguided scrutiny and regulation from government. More attention from beauracrats means less freedom for me.
  

  
 

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