11375 vs. 11216

Status
Not open for further replies.
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
any guess as to what these numbers mean?

There are 11375 threads in the anabolic forum alone. There are 11216 threads in every other forum combined (general chat excluded). This **** is getting ridiculous. Too much focus is being placed on anabolics instead of a proper training and nutrition plan. We all need to take a step back and look at what is going on here. Not saying I'm different, I'm just as guilty as any of you. Hell, I probably post in the anabolics section more so than any other section, either giving advice to newbs or just bullshitting. But either way, I believe the point is obvious. Too much emphasis is placed on 'supplementation' when other factors aren't even close to being dialed in. When's the last time anyone started a thread in the anabolics section and posted their diet? I can't name one. 90% of the time, the other members have to drag the **** out of the thread starter to post up his (sometimes her) diet. And what have we discovered almost every time.......the diet is fucked, the training is fucked, rest is non-existant, overtraining to the 10th degree, etc. There are 3 things you need in this lifestyle to suceed: eat, sleep, and train. That's it. There is no anabolic requirement nor will there ever be. You can pump all the oil, pop all the pills, or rub all the transdermals on you and in the end, you will look the exact same if those 3 factors aren't in line. I sense a lot of disgust in the senior members of this board and I rarely see them even posting anymore in this section, because they have deemed it worthless. Who listens? Very few, usually noone. Most believe there is some sort of secret ingredient to excelling in this lifestyle we have chosen and those are the ones that will not change in the years to come. They will lift the same weight, they will eat the same foods, curse their genetics for not responding to their 5x/wk arm workout, and jump on the latest and greatest super designer steroid on the market. 4 weeks or so later, they're a little stronger, little bigger, and then PCT rolls around..........gains diminish. Want to know why? Because 3 shitty meals a day and working out 6x per week doesn't cut it. Eventually, their thought process might change but for now, it's genetic blaming time.

We all see the point here. Step back and analyze other factors before jumping into any anabolic agent. If you're not gaining naturally, then something is fucked up and you need to address it before jumping on anything, otherwise you're just chasing your own tail. There are some who really have maxed out their genetic potential and will need anabolic help at some point if they wish to continue gaining. But I have yet to see anyone on this board that meets that qualification.
 
JonesersRX7

JonesersRX7

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
:goodpost:

but will anyone actually evaluate themselves and realize this? Maybe 1 out of a 100.

It's the easy way... and who wants to do things the hard way? /sarcasm.
 

E-Swift25

New member
Awards
0
I see your point, but a higher post-count doesn't mean that people are placing less attention on diet and training. I think its good that more people are posting in the Anabolics section. At least people are learning to use steroids safely. Wether they have proper nutrition and exercise remains to be seen, but at least they're not damaging their bodies from reckless AAS use.

It does piss me off when guys "train" for 6 months, then are positive they've hit a insurmountable plateau. I didn't juice until I was 25 and I managed to attain respectable acheivements in regards to my overall progress. No, I definitely wouldn't be 220lbs at this bodyfat% without anabolics, I understand that. But my solid base and knowledge of training and eating helped me achieve that faster. Steroids are the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
 

max-rot98

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
I agree with Beelz 100%. I am also just as guilty. Not in real life but on here.

I will say this though. I find nothing even remotely interesting about diet. Probably the reason I don't post in that section much. But when things aren't going right the first thing I examine is diet and training. Every time.
 
milwood

milwood

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Very insightful and frighteningly true! I am guilty of falling into the trap of "the anabolic mystique"---

Diet/nutrition, training, and rest have always been at the heart of it. The rest is certainly icing on the cake---nothing more.

Easy to see how the "magic bullet" supplement/anabolic/pill/whatever becomes the focus. Wishful thinking and insane hype/marketing certainly contribute.

Excellent addition, Beelz, as always...
:thumbsup:
 
revodrew

revodrew

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
I tried to rep you for a good post, wouldnt allow it. So here is another 1,000,000 fantasy points and a bag of marshmelows!!!
:goodpost:
 
motiv8er

motiv8er

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Very good point Beelze. How do we emphasize the other sections honestly and effectivly?
 
Apowerz6

Apowerz6

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
Good point Beelz... but my diet will be in check, and my training will be in check too... I promise...
 
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Very good point Beelze. How do we emphasize the other sections honestly and effectivly?
If I had my way, I'd erase every thread started in the anabolics section unless their diet and training was posted as well. It would serve two purposes:
1) weed out all the guys that really belong on bb.com.
2) genuinely help the ones that do want to improve.

AAS is not the answer most of these guys are looking for. they want gains, quick and in a hurry. no such thing. but i'm sure someone somewhere in their gym is filling their head with illusions of grandeur, and they think AAS is their ticket. they're sadly mistaken.

e-swift - i do believe you missed the point of this thread. anyone who has their diet and training in check knows wtf i'm talking about. this isn't new by any means. this is the part that is getting lost in today's new high-tech everything must be fast society. if it requires work, most don't want to **** with it.
 
revodrew

revodrew

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
This was posted by Not_big_enuf, not about steriod use but instead about loosing the fat that he did. Over 100lbs, not an easy task. Not directly related to steriods but the princepal that lies behind it, is what you need to look at.

I look around our selfish, american society and everybody is looking for a quick answer because almost everyone is overweight. There isn't one. The answer is hard work, dedication, and determination. Sure, supplements help, bu they can't take the place of will power.
 
revodrew

revodrew

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Chanting:


Beelz for mod, Beelz for mod, Beelz for mod, Beelz for mod.

The more I read this thread the more of an ass I feel. I have never used an illegal steriod but have given it serious thought. I have read this about 7 times now and realize that I am a pile of lazy ****. Time to do some inner change and get this **** right. Thanks Beelz!
:clap2:
 
somewhatgifted

somewhatgifted

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Good point, and im glad you said it cause you seem to have the attention and admiration of fellow members. I like to say and i cant say it too often "you cant build a brick house without bricks". I constantly face scrutiny for researching supplements, as if supplementing discredits hard work for the miracle pill. Nothing can replace hard work, discipline and consistency. I do not know much about AAS PH but i do know how hard it is to do legs after 5 hours sleep on the wekend and i do know how hard it is to get one more rep and i do know how sweet it is to wear the envy of all the haters on my sleeve. Great thread beez
 

LCSULLA

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Chanting:


Beelz for mod, Beelz for mod, Beelz for mod, Beelz for mod.

The more I read this thread the more of an ass I feel. I have never used an illegal steriod but have given it serious thought. I have read this about 7 times now and realize that I am a pile of lazy ****. Time to do some inner change and get this **** right. Thanks Beelz!
:clap2:
Revodrew you have hit on some great points. One: Beelz for MOD!! Maybe some Tee-shirts?
Second, I am in the same boat being a (fat) pile of lazy ****!
 
Apowerz6

Apowerz6

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
Once again thank you Beelz for doing Am a great service of self reflection...
The next AM inner man mental, and physical toughness retreat will be next weekend, at Camp Nowhere, FLA. Beelz will be the Keynote speaker and moderator, bring your weight belts boys... :lol:
 
Gokmog

Gokmog

Member
Awards
0
hmmmph.

this guy posts a long complaint about the posting population's preoccupation with anabolics on a website that is literally "anabolicminds.com" and everyone gets all touchy-feely.

hmmmph!

screw dat! you're all a bunch of prideful dorks! where're my 'roids? GAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

:twisted:
 
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
hmmmph.

this guy posts a long complaint about the posting population's preoccupation with anabolics on a website that is literally "anabolicminds.com" and everyone gets all touchy-feely.

hmmmph!

screw dat! you're all a bunch of prideful dorks! where're my 'roids? GAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

:twisted:
Exhibit A
 
Apowerz6

Apowerz6

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
Pride has nothing to do with what the majority of newbie do when they come here... Ask the same damn questions about anabolics before researching, getting proper nutrition, or let alone proper rest. And granted the name of the forum is Anabolicminds, "roids" do not have to be anabolic, food can be rest can be, and proper training can be. anabolic acording to wikepedia:
Anabolism is the part of metabolism that builds larger molecules. One way of categorizing metabolic processes, whether at the cellular, organ or organism level is as anabolic or catabolic.
Anabolic processes tend toward "building up" organs and tissues. These processes produce growth and differentiation of cells and increase in body size, a process that involves synthesis of complex molecules. Examples of anabolic processes include growth and mineralization of bone and increase of muscle mass.

So keep searching, and doing your roids, before you come around here talking ****. And know what anabolic means!!!
 
revodrew

revodrew

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
hmmmph.

this guy posts a long complaint about the posting population's preoccupation with anabolics on a website that is literally "anabolicminds.com" and everyone gets all touchy-feely.

hmmmph!

screw dat! you're all a bunch of prideful dorks! where're my 'roids? GAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

:twisted:
Insert foot in mouth, now choke on it!
 
Pioneer

Pioneer

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
sure this thread is great and all and its true a lot of people dont care about nutrition and diet and workout routines and such but i think there are other possibilities.

for one people ask a lot of questions dealing with anabolics because they can be dangerous if you dont use them right.

side effects scare a lot of people and they want to get all the questions right. eating a cheeseburger might be wrong and bad nutrition here and there wont cause you to grow breast tissue, and you dont need to take something after eating the cheeseburger to fight off and increase in DHT or estrogen (bad example i know).

diet, nutrition and all that stuff can be seen on other websites which could answer all of the questions they need. nutrition is widely talked about in a LOT of places. there aren't anywhere close to as many sites that answer questions about PCT and cycle help.

lot of helpful people are here that probably know more about anabolics then they do nutrition, so thats why this site attracts more questions about anabolics then it would to nutrition. you can change this by possibly moving the title of the anabolics forum to the bottom and the nutrition up to the top for example. or you could change the name from ANABOLICminds.com to nutritionminds.com.

ive never seen so many people up in arms about a thread count.

ps. this thread just added to the larger number

p.s.s please dont hurt me :D
 
sweet-physique

sweet-physique

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
any guess as to what these numbers mean?


I was going to quess these are ZIP codes and you were deciding which would be a safer mailing address for your um um um . . .

I was going to say anabolics but we talk way too much about anabolics here at anabolicminds.com
j/k
 
revodrew

revodrew

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Pioneer:

True, but until you really think about it, the people (me included) should not even be asking the questions about using until the diet is right. To me, the hardest part about training is not working out, taking supps, it is eating correctly. It is good that people come and ask questions but it seems that lately most of the questions are coming when the person is in a bind and need some PCT help cause they didnt do the research prior to using. That is back asswards. I myself used M1T with nothing else! Why, cause I took the word of the gym owner where I go. Dumb move but hey, he owns the gym so he has to know what he is saying, right?! Hell no!!! I was fucked up, itching, getting sick, loosing weight. When I came here I learned a shitload, just a little late. Now next time I go into it, I will be educated. People are going to do whatever they want, the post count is not the issue here, it is what is in the post that matters. Just my .02 and it isnt even worth that.
 
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
for those who disagree, throw up a pic and prove me wrong. :D
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
You also have to remember that the PH section (which was the busiest) was merged into this section. So the point remains even though the numbers are highly inflated.
 
Pioneer

Pioneer

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Pioneer:

True, but until you really think about it, the people (me included) should not even be asking the questions about using until the diet is right. To me, the hardest part about training is not working out, taking supps, it is eating correctly. It is good that people come and ask questions but it seems that lately most of the questions are coming when the person is in a bind and need some PCT help cause they didnt do the research prior to using. That is back asswards. I myself used M1T with nothing else! Why, cause I took the word of the gym owner where I go. Dumb move but hey, he owns the gym so he has to know what he is saying, right?! Hell no!!! I was fucked up, itching, getting sick, loosing weight. When I came here I learned a shitload, just a little late. Now next time I go into it, I will be educated. People are going to do whatever they want, the post count is not the issue here, it is what is in the post that matters. Just my .02 and it isnt even worth that.
agreed, and just think about how many more questions these threads have answered.

im not disagreeing with beez, their should be a lot less in the anabolics section due to people researching and putting more time in other sections. but some of you guys gotta be a little more open minded with this.
 
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
You also have to remember that the PH section (which was the busiest) was merged into this section. So the point remains even though the numbers are highly inflated.
true, but PH's can be used in this example as well. i don't view them any differently or to be used as a replacement for lack of a sound training/diet protocol.
 
revodrew

revodrew

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Pioneer:

True once again, not disagreing with you. Just wish that 99% of the people would hit up the nutrition section as much as the Anabolics section. I know I will be looking for some good recipes
 
Apowerz6

Apowerz6

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
this is true, and i think thats what you were trying to convey...
Sound training+ sound nutrition= sound and healthy body.
Sound training+ sound nutrition+Sound sports medicine+sound Rest= GODD**** he's heeyooge!!!
 
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
agreed, and just think about how many more questions these threads have answered.

im not disagreeing with beez, their should be a lot less in the anabolics section due to people researching and putting more time in other sections. but some of you guys gotta be a little more open minded with this.
bro, i'm not against a legit question. i can find a perfect example if need be, but i recall numerous threads where these guys were posting up their first cycle and stats. not all, but most of them had shitty stats to begin with, and then when the question was posed about diet, they're answer would be "diet is fine, i'm asking about ........." they don't even want to hear it.

not trying to come off as some sort of anabolic prophet or some ****. there's a lot (whole lot) in this game that i don't even understand yet, especially the inner workings of our endocrine system and the like. i'm just calling it like i see it.
 

dsl

officially an adult
Awards
1
  • Established
Honestly, I was drawn to this site because I wanted to get huuuge-fast. But the more that I read on the board the more that I realized how important nutrition was. It got to the point that I realized I needed to sign up with Bobo and find out what a sound diet really is. Now here I am 6 months later, only 4lbs lighter, about 6% less bodyfat and 10 lbs more muscle. So yes diet is absolutely key!!


Good Post Beelze:thumbsup:.


Though, in all honesty, I don't like some of the suggestions that I see given to newbs when they ask for diet suggestions. Plus, there is the problem of them not wanting to follow good advice anyways.
 

max-rot98

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
when the question was posed about diet, they're answer would be "diet is fine, i'm asking about ........." they don't even want to hear it.
so true. I remember a member here that I caught specifically saying aas didn't do **** for him. Asked about diet said it was fine. Than later discovered he ate something like a couple waffles for breakfast. WOOHOO we're talking BIG muscles now. Even Ronnie wouldn't be where he is at without a few good waffles in the morning.

People need to know what works for them. My diet probably wouldn't work for Beelz as well as his and vice versa. THE POINT IS when things stop progressing more juice should not be the answer. Better diet and different training should ALWAYS be analyzed numerous times before touching aas!
 
xtraflossy

xtraflossy

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
MAybe a requirement when signing up should be to include your diet in your profile,.. to enter,....nah-
If someone asked me how my diet is,.. I tend to just say "It's fine" too. Im just as lazy, and dont want to type out everything I eat.

On the other end though,.. I hardly ever do go to the workout/nutrition section. Also, I never really check out my bank account numbers either. I know how much I normally spend a month, if I buy something pretty expensive, I just cool it for a while.
While I dont examin my diet constantly, I am also limited in the amount of food I can carry home,.. (but thats another thing). Anyways- All this was to explain/justify my comment:

I just find the science behind the new stuff interesting. This section changes the most, keeps me interested,.. so for the most part I hang out here, check in at work.... (Its my new Yahoo home page)


But I agree 100%, it does give the feeling something isn't right.
 

ivydude

Board Supporter
Awards
0
In addition to dietary focus, I wish there was more focus on exercise science. For whatever reason people seem to neglect this subforum as well.

Good post though, Beelz--rep points for this.
 
jarhead

jarhead

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I fully agree with the what beelze was trying to get across. Not just on this board, but alot of places, if you go to the members pics section you'll see countless guys weighing 160,170, 180...then look up some of the threads they post in talking about cycles. Alot of these guys are cycling anadrol, a gram of test, dbol, tren etc. etc. and still weighing under 160,170,180. When you're using that many drugs and still are a flyweight, something ain't right and it ain't the juice. Me personally, and I'm no genteic freak, I was 5'7" 135lbs my freshman year of high school. 165 my senior year, and was able to get to a fairly lean 220 at 5'7"- before ever touching a drug. The thing is that it doesn't happen overnight, that was over eight years. Most people want it now.
Having said that-The only thing I sorta disagree with is the post number thing. I think a large part of the discrepancy has to do with the fact that nutrition and training info can be found in so many different places. This is not the case with aas. We pretty much have MD magazine and the internet to get practical knowledge from. I don't think we have an overabundance of knuckleheads here(though there are some for sure). A good number of the guys here generally understand diet and training come first. And a large reason for that is the fact that the vets here are constantly repeating the inportance of diet and training, and helping out the new guys with more patience than I've seen anywhere else, along with posts like beelze's.
 
jonny21

jonny21

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Pioneer:

True, but until you really think about it, the people (me included) should not even be asking the questions about using until the diet is right. To me, the hardest part about training is not working out, taking supps, it is eating correctly.
Right on. Considering you have the proper food choices inplace the next barrier is actually having the time to eat as much as needed. IMO fitting in meals is harder than fitting in sleep or workouts. Working 10 hours a day in an environment that doesn't mix well with frequent meals makes it very difficult. I prefer whole food but resort to MRP out of necessity.

I am guilty of looking for the easy way out, but I feel my diet & workouts are check :D. I am not going to rationalize or defend my choices any further.

I definitely agree with Beelz's first post and feel that diet & training are not emphasized enough.
 
Last edited:

kelsey

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Pride has nothing to do with what the majority of newbie do when they come here... Ask the same damn questions about anabolics before researching, getting proper nutrition, or let alone proper rest. And granted the name of the forum is Anabolicminds, "roids" do not have to be anabolic, food can be rest can be, and proper training can be. anabolic acording to wikepedia:
Anabolism is the part of metabolism that builds larger molecules. One way of categorizing metabolic processes, whether at the cellular, organ or organism level is as anabolic or catabolic.
Anabolic processes tend toward "building up" organs and tissues. These processes produce growth and differentiation of cells and increase in body size, a process that involves synthesis of complex molecules. Examples of anabolic processes include growth and mineralization of bone and increase of muscle mass.

So keep searching, and doing your roids, before you come around here talking ****. And know what anabolic means!!!
you took my exact thought..


Beez, this thread goes without saying,
COMMON SENSE, but needed for education of the masses.
(idiots looking to get something for nothing.)
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I agree with the post but let me offer an alternative explaination. A lot of people come here for information they cant get anywhere else. This Steroid/Prohormone/Controlled Substance related information isnt easily obtained via traditional routes. The users are sharing experiences and thoughts on certain compounds as well as techniques and cycles for maximizing gains. In most cases, you cant get this type of first hand information anywhere else (besides these type of forums).

I dont come here to ask people how to improve my training split. I can research/read/learn how to do that from MANY reputable sources of information. In many cases these are the more traditional routes of obtaining information. The same goes for diet. If i have questions about caloric intake or micronutrient profiles I have many legit places to look. This type of imformation is aslo much more "mainstream" and easier to obtain.

There will always be an imbalance of posts regarding anabolic substances. I DO NOT think this reflects EVERYONES prioritization. This is jumping to conclusions. Since I dont ask questions in diet/training related sections does this mean that all I focus on are the drugs? No, it just means this is the only area of knowledge that I can't get good info/feedback on anywhere else. If I want to know what the "optimal" dose of OT seems to be or how well someone gained on 30mg where else can I look/ask?

I agree with your point that drugs should not be everyones first focus. Diet & training methods are much more important. I just feel it is a bit hasty to conclude that the imbalance of posts is directly related to members priorities. Most just simply have no other source for this type of specialized information.

Just my two cents....
 

Moyer

board observer
Awards
1
  • Established
I doubt there are any long term posters here that want AM to turn into anything that resembles a "steroid board".

One observation- It seems there is rarely any new info posted in the nutrition sections. By contrast, there are so many new designer steroids being released that it's hard to keep up with them.
 
jonny21

jonny21

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
I doubt there are any long term posters here that want AM to turn into anything that resembles a "steroid board".

One observation- It seems there is rarely any new info posted in the nutrition sections. By contrast, there are so many new designer steroids being released that it's hard to keep up with them.
I am not a long time poster but I still wouldn't like this to turn into a "steroid board".

Why not bring the nutrition sub-forum back into play?
 
Grunt76

Grunt76

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I doubt there are any long term posters here that want AM to turn into anything that resembles a "steroid board".

One observation- It seems there is rarely any new info posted in the nutrition sections. By contrast, there are so many new designer steroids being released that it's hard to keep up with them.
I agree 100%. Still, Beelzebub's post does still mostly hold true. I am one to believe I had maxed out my natural genetics - in good part because I started at 23. After 14 years of doing the WHOLE training AND diet thing, I kept repeatedly bumping, then slamming into some kind of invisible barrier.

Then after doing ONE steroid cycle and ONE IGF-1 cycle, discussions with the people around on this board and others reveals that very very few people have come close to their natural limits prior to using.

I'm not tooting my own horn here, what I'm saying is, having done it, it is very easy for me to remember not having met anyone who trained & ate close to that amount of time with dedication prior to juicing. Heck, a lot of people here are at their second or third cycle with less than 3 years lifting. IT'S JUST WRONG, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

But it's all a mentality thing. Western people are immersed in consumerism, and that means instant gratification. Just like an obsessive mentality about becoming millionaire overnight can have you do seriously dangerous things, so with getting huge overnight.

One last thing. I do believe that ANABOLICMINDS is called thus because it is dedicated to the most anabolic thing... the mind. Not because people on here have a one-track mind with anabolics... ;)
 

edale3

New member
Awards
0
beelz, great post, i pesonally know i have some issues with my diet, i would love to discuss what a good diet is on this forum , i think the knowledge base here is the best by far, my question is , is it ethical to talk about diet plans and such when that is how bobo makes his cash? there is no sarcasm at all meant by this reply it is a sincere question that i have had and it is the reason i personally never posted anything with diet and nutrition questions.
 
Beelzebub

Beelzebub

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
bobo runs a business, yes, but basic diet tips are discussed everywhere. ethics aren't relevant in this subject. basic diet tips aren't that hard to figure out IMO. best bet would be to start a thread on the nutrition forum with your current diet, stats, and training routine. JMO.

fwiw, i don't know much about other ppl's diets and what works best for them, i just know what works real well for me and couple other guys that i know off-line. the point of the thread is to take a step back and look at other factors before jumping on hormones. many of the posters have missed that point already, obviously.
 

meowmeow

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
...the point of the thread is to take a step back and look at other factors before jumping on hormones. many of the posters have missed that point already, obviously.
The building of muscle, strength, power and endurance is based on knowledge acquired through scientific principles. Charles Poliquin has a performance center where he trains athletes based on this type of knowledge. He takes extreme measures to insure that his clients are drug-free/steroid free. He uses botanicals where appropriate, modifies diet, concerns himself with methods for speedy recovery and trains his athlete clients so as to maximize performance.

These are the types of things that need discussing. The use of scientific papers to support and enhance understanding of concepts relevant to bodybuilding is one of the things that originally attracted me to this forum. There are plenty of forums that only emphasize getting "swollen" with steroids. This community should be more than that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top