Unsealed 1-Andro utt bottles?

[Sabaton]

Hi guys!
I got some good gains from the original caps versions of AMS products, I even posted a thread about that on this board back then.

I've been wanting to try these products again, especially the newer utt versions. So I recently recieved a couple of 1-Andro utt bottles along with a couple of 4-AD bottles. I ordered these from the UK since I live in Sweden. I got a bit suspicious though because the 4-AD bottles are sealed with plastic covering the bottle and the cap, but the 1-Andro bottles do not have this kind of seal! Is this normal or should I be worried that those bottles have been tampered with in some way? All the boxes did have a sticker seal which didn't look tampered, but those seem easier to just stick back after opening the box.

I've already started using the products and the 1-Andro tastes minty like it's supposed to and nothing really seems to be wrong about it, but I just wanted to check with you anyway. Is there anyway I can check myself to be sure it's the real stuff in the bottles? I read that the 1-Andro should produce a slight tingling sensation in the mouth, but I can't say I feel that much of it. I feel something but it could just as well be the mint flavour playing tricks with me!

And another question, if I want to up the dose to 3 ml a day, should I take 2x1,5 ml doses? Or would it be better doing 3x1 ml doses? I usually take the first dose when I wake up at 6 in the morning, the next dose is then taken 8 hours later at 2 in the afternoon. That way there's a huge gap between dose #2 and the first dose the next day. But perhaps it doesn't matter much?

Thanks for your time!

 

[Ricky5145]

I can't answer the first question for you but as far as your second question i can help you out. I had this same question for myself not too long ago and it bugged the crap out of me. i spent hours on the internet trying to find out how much and when. I finally came across an AMS guy who explained it perfect to me. You dont want to take more than 1ml in a dose because you can only absorb so much under your tounge at a time. He said you can take 1 ml twice a day 6-8 hours apart or take 1ml three times a day 6 hours apart. This is currently what i am doing. i take my first dose of 1-andro, 4-ad, and decavol at 7:00 am, my second at 2:00 pm and my final at 9:00 pm. Ill try to find the thread for you so you can read it yourself but this is the jist of it. hope this helped.

I am loging my AMS ultimate mass stack on here if you want to check it out

 

[Ricky5145]

It wont let me post the link but the guy "Right hook" answers alot of good questions. including the one i helped you with. Heres what i think you were looking for.

"In the study they took 1 dose only once per day. So it seems as if only so much of the hormone can absorb sublingually at a time. This dose not mean that if you take it say every 6 hours 3 times a day it will not absorb. It actually will quite well. So if you trying to get more hormone in then dose more often but still no more then 1ml at a time."

"Also again refer to the face that less = more in this study. The 200mg oral dose did not equate to a 10mg sublingual dose. Assuming 15% even with the oral dose can vary greatly b/c of the liver pass."
-"Right Hook"

 

[Sabaton]

It wont let me post the link but the guy "Right hook" answers alot of good questions. including the one i helped you with. Heres what i think you were looking for.

"In the study they took 1 dose only once per day. So it seems as if only so much of the hormone can absorb sublingually at a time. This dose not mean that if you take it say every 6 hours 3 times a day it will not absorb. It actually will quite well. So if you trying to get more hormone in then dose more often but still no more then 1ml at a time."

"Also again refer to the face that less = more in this study. The 200mg oral dose did not equate to a 10mg sublingual dose. Assuming 15% even with the oral dose can vary greatly b/c of the liver pass."
-"Right Hook"

Thanks for the info. That makes sense of course, and I think most of the time it's better to divide doses if one wants to go beyond a terapheutical effective amount per day. But I do remember reading somewhere that higher/fewer doses are preferable regarding these PH:s, but that could have been about the old caps versions.
Also I was wondering about size of the doses compared to the caps versions. I took 5 caps/day of 1-andro, and even at just 15% effectiveness I would have to take about 4 ml/day of the utt to get the same effect, and that's assuming the absorbtion really is 100% on the utt-products. Such high doses of utt seems unusual though and the last part of the text quoted from Right hook seems to imply that the utt is more effective even at lower doses?
It would be nice to hear from someone that's tried both versions and what they think is a comparable utt dose to about 5-6 caps of 1-andro a day.

 

[Ricky5145]

In regards to your cap/Utt question.

"We actually believe the UTT version of 1-Androsterone is MORE effective for a few reasons. One being that it's an optimal delivery system. Two being that lower doses of these prohormones delivered UTT have actually shown better levels of increases in test. Take a look at this thread and note how only 10mg's of UTT test had significantly better results then 200mg's taken orally."
-"Right Hook"

Prohormones are metabolic precursors to male hormones such as testosterone, which is known to make men stronger, more energetic and more virile. This is why they have obvious applications within Bodybuilding because they can increase testosterone levels and/or combat low testosterone. This is also why they are among one of the most popular categories of Bodybuilding supplements since higher testosterone levels can lead to increased muscle mass.

Popularity not withstanding, the present technology of drug delivery systems as they pertain to testosterone and/or prohormones are behind the curve. Prohormones taken orally via standard capsules are ingested and digested so they have to make their way through the stomach, small intestine and liver respectively. In the liver, these compounds are broken down and for the most part, deactivated. Therefore, the majority of the compound will not be utilized and will put a bit of a non-toxic burden on the liver.

This is where sublingual delivery comes in. Sublingual simply means ‘under the tongue’. It allows the compound or drug to enter the bloodstream through the tissue under the tongue. As it applies to steroid hormones, the technology has been patented and has been studied exhaustively. Its first applications were for active steroid hormones as a drug delivery, but it is also particularly applicable to prohormone supplements. These sublingual supplements solve the poor bioavailability, first pass liver problem posed by oral capsules. The most effective way to utilize sublingual delivery for these supplements is by combining the prohormone with a cyclodextrin compound, a carbohydrate like molecule that allows the prohormone to be absorbed by the oral mucosa. The sublingual delivery (sublingual tablets) of the cyclodextrin compound with small doses of testosterone/prohormone can produce from a five to tenfold increase over oral capsules. The specific type of cyclodextrin used should be Hydroxyproply-beta cyclodextrin which is many times more water soluble than beta cyclodextrin and therefore is superior for mucosal delivery. The cyclodextrin complex acts as a ‘molecular condom’ for the prohormone. This causes a normally fat soluble compound such as prohormones to become water soluble [1].

Joseph Pitha of the United States Department of Health and Human Services has been the pioneer of this type of sublingual research. Pitha published a study in which he used a cyclodextrin/testosterone complex on men. Pitha found that this complex containing just 10 milligrams of testosterone raised testosterone levels 900% (from normal baseline level) in one hour. On the other hand, oral testosterone at 20 times this dose (200 mgs), raised testosterone just 500% at the peak. Another study comparing a 100 mg. oral vs. a 25 mg. cyclodextrin complexed sublingual 4-androstenediol, found the sublingual version led to nearly a threefold (261% to be exact) greater increase in testosterone with one quarter of the dose (25 mgs), with the peak levels at 40 as opposed to 90 minutes [2].

According to two other studies, 20 to 21.4 mgs Cyclodextrin androstenediol taken sublingually increases serum testosterone levels in healthy young men from their original baseline levels. The findings suggest that this sublingual concoction is “superior to oral ingestion for the delivery of androstenediol to the peripheral tissues and subsequent conversion to testosterone”. These studies further demonstrate that sublingual, mucosal delivery of small doses of testosterone precursors produces a much better hormonal response than does oral ingestion of large doses [3, 4].

Finally, an Eastern Michigan study, again done with oral 4-Androstenediol and a 4-AD/cyclodextrin sublingual compound concludes that the sublingual delivery wins again. A 25 mg sublingual dose outperformed a 100 mg oral dose by a 261% greater testosterone increase! Again that is at 25 mgs, one quarter the dosage! It should be noted however, that sublingual absorption does have its limits. This same study was also done with a 50 mg sublingual dose and was shown to me no more effective than a 25 mg dose. This may be due to a somewhat limited capacity for absorption through the sublingual tissues. There is a limited surface area under the tongue, which probably means there is a finite amount of material that can be absorbed sublingually [1].

In conclusion, sublingual prohormone products raise testosterone much more effectively than oral capsules. These increases in testosterone are rapid and last for about three hours in healthy men. For the best way to achieve desired gains, sublingual products should be administered in three doses per day for the length of a cycle. The increased efficacy of sublingual vs. oral is about tenfold. Therefore, they are unquestionably the most effective and safest way to use prohormones




References

1. IronMan Magazine. December 1999. Super Andro: Cyclodextrin Technology Shatters the Absorption Barrier by Patrick Arnold and David Garrett.
2. Pitha, J. J Pharm Sci. 75(2):165-167.
3. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 97: 404-412. Acute Resistance exercise does not change the hormonal response to sublingual androstenediol intake. Brown GA, McKenzie D.
4.J Appl Physiol. 2002 92: 142-146. Acute hormonal response to sublingual androstenediol intake in young men.

 

[quigs]

But I do remember reading somewhere that higher/fewer doses are preferable regarding these PH:s, but that could have been about the old caps versions.

This theory was for oral administration of pro-hormones. It was in an effort to basically overwhelm the deactivating enzymes of the liver so that more active makes it to target tissues. Since you do not need stable blood levels for muscle building effects with anabolic steroids, this transient spike was enough to upregulate gene expression and protein synthesis. I've seen blood work that would support this theory with the original 4-diol.

With sublingual administration, you circumvent the metabolic deactivation by the liver, so there is no need to take a single high dosage. If you desire a higher dosage at one time, do not take more than 1mL at once. Take 1mL, wait 5 minutes or so (enough time to absorb the solution), and dispense another 5mL. This should be a sufficient strategy to achieve peak blood levels of the target hormone.

 

[Sabaton]

Thanks guys, the dosage shouldn't be a concern then. However, the last post by quigs led to another question, should I wait at least 5 minutes between taking 1-andro and 4-ad to ensure optimal uptake? I actually have a couple of bottles of the original capped versions, maybe it would be a good idea to switch between the two, like taking 1-andro caps and liquid 4-ad in one dose and vice versa the next dose? That sounds like a bit of a stretch I know, but since I got both versions anyway... And it's interesting to see what you guys think of the idea. I know the caps should be taken with food unlike the utt, so maybe that defeats the idea somewhat in any case.

Also, please don't forget my original question, if someone has an unopened bottle of 1-andro, could you please check and see if the bottle is sealed or not? Or if you just remember if the bottles you've used usually are sealed?

 

[Ricky5145]

All 12 of my bottles are sealed in plastic.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Thanks guys, the dosage shouldn't be a concern then. However, the last post by quigs led to another question, should I wait at least 5 minutes between taking 1-andro and 4-ad to ensure optimal uptake? I actually have a couple of bottles of the original capped versions, maybe it would be a good idea to switch between the two, like taking 1-andro caps and liquid 4-ad in one dose and vice versa the next dose? That sounds like a bit of a stretch I know, but since I got both versions anyway... And it's interesting to see what you guys think of the idea. I know the caps should be taken with food unlike the utt, so maybe that defeats the idea somewhat in any case.

Yes wait a few minutes between doses.

Also, please don't forget my original question, if someone has an unopened bottle of 1-andro, could you please check and see if the bottle is sealed or not? Or if you just remember if the bottles you've used usually are sealed?

We made a few runs of the bottles without the seals. Customer feedback indicated the seals were wanted so we added them. Your bottles are likely just from the first few runs we did so I wouldnt be too worried about it.

If you really want to be sure (and this isnt fun), you can hold a dose under your tongue for 10 minutes then swallow. It will burn extremely bad and cause you to cough. You will know it's real in that case. I wouldnt advise people doing this and I would also say to have some water to chase it down right away. It will burn your throat...

 

[Sabaton]

Yes wait a few minutes between doses.



We made a few runs of the bottles without the seals. Customer feedback indicated the seals were wanted so we added them. Your bottles are likely just from the first few runs we did so I wouldnt be too worried about it.

If you really want to be sure (and this isnt fun), you can hold a dose under your tongue for 10 minutes then swallow. It will burn extremely bad and cause you to cough. You will know it's real in that case. I wouldnt advise people doing this and I would also say to have some water to chase it down right away. It will burn your throat...

Thanks a lot for that info Royd!
That's all I wanted to hear, that there where actually a few batches produced without the seal. That eased my mind!
I'll wait about 5 minutes between taking 1-Andro and 4-AD from now.

 

[JOHNJESSICA20]

Thanks a lot for that info Royd!
That's all I wanted to hear, that there where actually a few batches produced without the seal. That eased my mind!
I'll wait about 5 minutes between taking 1-Andro and 4-AD from now.

I actually have both types on hand the sealed and non. Im sure you g2g man!